Do you belive other gods exist?

[dshix]

I went K-12 in a catholic school and actually took extra religion classes and talked with my teachers during and after classes, and had to go through the confirmation process against my will. I’m no expert, but I certainly know a fair share about it. Ive actually argued for catholicism against evangelical protestantism using bible quotes ect. just for the hell of it.

I’m surprised you know so little about Catholicism even though you learned so much about it.

Please stop trying to tell us what we believe; most of us who actually study and practice our faith know far better what it is than you do.

 

[Contarini]

If im correct, according to christian doctrine everyone prior to Jesus went to hell because of original sin. In fact wasnt Jesus supposed to have rescued the OT prophets while he was in hell?

“Hell” in that context refers essentially to what the Germanic pagan tradition means by “Hel”–the world of the dead. Christians have never taught that the OT saints were in a place of torment–the traditional view is that they were in the “limbo of the Fathers.” They were under the dominion of death. However, many Christians would say that Jesus’ “harrowing of hell” wasn’t an event limited to the chronological point in earth’s history in which it occurred, so the idea that people were sitting around waiting for redemption in a literal place is not binding dogma, and may not be the best way to think about it. It’s quite possible to argue (and this would be my opinion) that Jesus’ death intersects with the death of every man, woman, and child who has ever lived or will ever live, and that Jesus offers each of us redemption in the very moment of our deaths. This is speculation, but as far as I’m aware it’s fully within the bounds of orthodoxy (taking Catholic dogma as the standard of orthodoxy here, which is my own view and also appropriate given the nature of this forum). If I’m a heretic on this point, so is/was Pope Benedict XVI.

Edwin

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I went K-12 in a catholic school and actually took extra religion classes and talked with my teachers during and after classes, and had to go through the confirmation process against my will. I’m no expert, but I certainly know a fair share about it. Ive actually argued for catholicism against evangelical protestantism using bible quotes ect. just for the hell of it.

Not that I am saying you don’t know your stuff but usually the phrase “I went to twelve years of Catholic school” is usually followed by the most ignorant statements about Catholicism I have ever heard.

Just something to keep in mind.

 

[Skadi]

I’m surprised you know so little about Catholicism even though you learned so much about it.

Please stop trying to tell us what we believe; most of us who actually study and practice our faith know far better what it is than you do.

Im not pretending to tell you what you believe, but I have been told by swarms of Catholics, both here and offline, that the fact I am baptized means that I bear the full weight of rejecting Jesus and will go to hell. Now of course no man can condemn another for eternity, but of all the devout Catholics ive encountered id say you are in the minority.

 

[Contarini]

I went K-12 in a catholic school and actually took extra religion classes and talked with my teachers during and after classes, and had to go through the confirmation process against my will. I’m no expert, but I certainly know a fair share about it. Ive actually argued for catholicism against evangelical protestantism using bible quotes ect. just for the hell of it.

And in all of that, no one told you that the Catholic Church does not necessarily teach that non-Christians are going to hell?

Listing your “credentials” isn’t going to impress anyone when your posts routinely confuse Catholicism with some kind of caricature of fundamentalist Christianity.

Edwin

 

[Peter_Plato]

I honestly worship gods I believe in, so even if im wrong (which im not) im not going to hell by that logic. If this was actually true that would deprive Christianity of its #1 missionary tool, scary stories about hell.

You might, likewise, claim that fear of fine or imprisonment is the #1 political tool to keep citizens law abiding, but that seems to presuppose a rather cynical view of humanity. Likewise, it would seem, a rather jaundiced view of Christianity is presupposed when scary stories are thought to be its main missionary tool.

For my part, the truth alone functions as the only legitimate apologetic. It would be senseless to be afraid of things that didn’t exist, in any case. Presupposing the truth of Christianity, there might, in fact, be legitimate reasons for some to be afraid of what might come about as a result of their evil choices, but that is neither here nor there as a determiner of the truth of such claims.

In other words, the fact there may be legitimate reasons to fear certain consequences does not make such claims false, as much as we would like that to be the case.

 

[Skadi]

Not that I am saying you don’t know your stuff but usually the phrase “I went to twelve years of Catholic school” is usually followed by the most ignorant statements about Catholicism I have ever heard.

Just something to keep in mind.

Well we had to read the catechism so i’m pretty sure I have atleast a basic grasp.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If im correct, according to christian doctrine everyone prior to Jesus went to hell because of original sin. In fact wasnt Jesus supposed to have rescued the OT prophets while he was in hell?

Skadi-

They were in Sheol, not Gehenna.

A Beginner’s Guide to Hell

The Jews envisioned the “underworld” as being made up of She’ol and Gehenna.

She’ol
Also known as Hades, this might correspond to purgatory in Catholic theology. She’ol was divided into four levels:

Upper Upper She’ol
Lower Upper She’ol
Upper Lower She’ol
Lower Lower She’ol

**Gehenna **
Hell as we understand it today; this is as bad as it gets.

 

[dshix]

Im not pretending to tell you what you believe, but I have been told by swarms of Catholics, both here and offline, that the fact I am baptized means that I bear the full weight of rejecting Jesus and will go to hell. Now of course no man can condemn another for eternity, but of all the devout Catholics ive encountered id say you are in the minority.

If you have been baptised, you have a permanent character on your soul that makes you Christian. So, yes, you have somewhat of an obligation to follow the faith.

That said, if you have true convictions in your current religion, and the truth has not been sufficiently taught to you, that is, your conscience is sincere, then there is no reason why that mark should cause you to go to Hell.

However, if you do go to Hell in the end because of a badly-lived life, that character will increase the pain in Hell because you were made Christian yet did not follow the Christian faith.

 

[Randy_Carson]

If im correct, according to christian doctrine everyone prior to Jesus went to hell because of original sin. In fact wasnt Jesus supposed to have rescued the OT prophets while he was in hell?

From the Catechism:

“HE DESCENDED INTO HELL. ON THE THIRD DAY HE ROSE AGAIN”

631 Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens."476 The Apostles’ Creed confesses in the same article Christ’s descent into hell and his Resurrection from the dead on the third day, because in his Passover it was precisely out of the depths of death that he made life spring forth:

Christ, that Morning Star, who came back from the dead, and shed his peaceful light on all mankind, your Son who lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.477

Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell

632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483

634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487

Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."488

IN BRIEF

636 By the expression “He descended into hell”, the Apostles’ Creed confesses that Jesus did really die and through his death for us conquered death and the devil “who has the power of death” (Heb 2:14).

637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Well we had to read the catechism so i’m pretty sure I have atleast a basic grasp.

If that is your basis then I doubt it.

You would actually have more credibility if you just said that you read the catechism.

I went to 12 years of school before college too. But I don’t use that to bolster my Biology work.

If you really knew Catholicism you would know 2 things.

1. Many Catholic schools are notorious for not delving into the theological and are only interested in regurgitating information at best.
2. If someone bases their expertise on 12 years of Catholic school they are probably not well informed on the faith.

As someone who works with youth in the faith I can tell you that in the schools and in youth groups we basically get into the “what” of the faith, not the “why.” With a mass of people at all different levels you just cannot.

But your statements regarding the faith leave a lot to be desired for someone who considers themselves a 12 year expert on the subject. Or 13 because of the all too deep Kindergarten class.

All in all I would be shocked if in any of that time anyone said anything about anyone burning in a fiery hell. Such rhetoric is rarely helpful.

I

 

[Contarini]

Well we had to read the catechism so i’m pretty sure I have atleast a basic grasp.

You read this Catechism?

The most relevant passage is 846-48:

How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

I can see why zealous Catholics might think that a baptized person would be excluded from the category of those who “through no fault of their own” do not know the Gospel or the Church, but this does not in fact follow. Clearly “know” doesn’t just mean “know about” or “know facts about,” because anyone who has never heard of the Church by definition is not at fault. The key phrase is “knowing that the Church was founded by God.” If you sincerely disbelieve something, you don’t know it, even if you know about it.

The key phrase is “through no fault of their own.” You can “sincerely” believe all sorts of things because they flatter your prejudices or for some other less than admirable reason. So sincerely believing that the Church’s claims are false doesn’t get you off the hook–but knowing about these claims doesn’t necessarily put you “on” the hook. As Pope Francis said, it’s all about whether you follow your conscience.

 

[Contarini]

I dont think many people knowingly worship a false god. I mean unless you created it in your mind there realy isn’t any way to know if it is real at all.

Many people, including Christians, worship an image of God that draws a great deal from their prejudices, passions, and vices. To “knowingly worship a false god” means that you turn away from the voice of the true God and choose to worship what is effectively a reflection of your self (that may include a reflection of your own fears and self-hatred, of course).

Whether an individual polytheist is doing this or not–whether you worship in Thor the ways Thor reflects the true God or the ways Thor reflects your own self-worship and/or self-hatred (not saying you worship Thor particularly, just choosing him because he’s the first polytheistic deity that comes to mind and one that my ancestors probably worshiped)–is something that only God can know for sure.

Edwin

 

[Randy_Carson]

Im not pretending to tell you what you believe, but I have been told by swarms of Catholics, both here and offline, that the fact I am baptized means that I bear the full weight of rejecting Jesus and will go to hell. Now of course no man can condemn another for eternity, but of all the devout Catholics ive encountered id say you are in the minority.

Then count me in that increasingly large minority, Skadi.

Baptism washed away the stain of original sin, but concupiscence, or the natural attraction to sin, remained. If you’re like me, you’ve probably committed a boatload of personal sins in the course of your lifetime, and for these you are still responsible.

Now, I lean toward the idea that because you have not properly informed your own conscience by prayerfully studying these things, you may be saved. May.

However, the longer you hang around here, the less likely it is you will be able to qualify for the “invincible ignorance” clause.

 

[iepuras]

I honestly worship gods I believe in, so even if im wrong (which im not) im not going to hell by that logic. If this was actually true that would deprive Christianity of its #1 missionary tool, scary stories about hell.

Have you ever talked to converts to Christianity about why they convert and the missionary tools that were effective in their conversion?

I can tell you about my experience in converting to Christianity and it has absolutely nothing to do with hell or fear.

I am converting to Christiantiy for the following reasons, in no particular order:

1. Truth
2. Freedom
3. God’s love for me
4. Ability to live an authentic life and be who God created me to be
5. Desire to have a fulness of God’s love and grace in my life

I have no fear of hell because of the love my Creator has for me. It is not a motivating factor in my life at all.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Well we had to read the catechism so i’m pretty sure I have atleast a basic grasp.

But your posts don’t reflect an accurate understanding of the material you read.

Sorry, but there it is.

 

[Lokadottir]

If im correct, according to christian doctrine everyone prior to Jesus went to hell because of original sin. In fact wasnt Jesus supposed to have rescued the OT prophets while he was in hell?

You know what I thought so but I wasn’t sure.

 

[Lokadottir]

I went K-12 in a catholic school and actually took extra religion classes and talked with my teachers during and after classes, and had to go through the confirmation process against my will. I’m no expert, but I certainly know a fair share about it. Ive actually argued for catholicism against evangelical protestantism using bible quotes ect. just for the hell of it.

Thats always fun! It’s the same here. Not an expert but not an imbecile either.

 

[Lokadottir]

And in all of that, no one told you that the Catholic Church does not necessarily teach that non-Christians are going to hell?

Listing your “credentials” isn’t going to impress anyone when your posts routinely confuse Catholicism with some kind of caricature of fundamentalist Christianity.

Edwin

No I believe we were both told those who haven’t heard the good news can be spared. But we were both once Catholics and we were both confirmed which is a different kettle of fish. We’re basically apostates according to doctrine if I’m correct.

 

[Lokadottir]

You might, likewise, claim that fear of fine or imprisonment is the #1 political tool to keep citizens law abiding, but that seems to presuppose a rather cynical view of humanity. Likewise, it would seem, a rather jaundiced view of Christianity is presupposed when scary stories are thought to be its main missionary tool.

For my part, the truth alone functions as the only legitimate apologetic. It would be senseless to be afraid of things that didn’t exist, in any case. Presupposing the truth of Christianity, there might, in fact, be legitimate reasons for some to be afraid of what might come about as a result of their evil choices, but that is neither here nor there as a determiner of the truth of such claims.

In other words, the fact there may be legitimate reasons to fear certain consequences does not make such claims false, as much as we would like that to be the case.

Your approach is awesome but you can look through some of the threads to know its not always shared. And the flaw in your analogy is similar to if there was a law against hijabs (did I spell that right?) if there was no punishment I guarantee plenty of Muslim women would still wear them. Trying to get someone to convert is getting someone to abandon part of who they are. Not everyone will come when you play nicely so some Christians don’t.