Do you commit the sin of wasting time?

[Nick9]

maybe… maybe not… Call no man your father (meaning: don’t do everything he says as though he were God himself…). after all i have been through with priests :hypno: i frankly have a hard time listening to them even when i feel they are sincere… Once burnt, twice shy, as they say…

I think if we accept a spiritual director who has a good reputation and have faith that Jesus will guide us through him then we should be ok. I suppose if you have had bad experiences with a priest it would be hard to do that. I would imagine that it is not that hard to find a good priest if you look for one, however.

why would Jesus ask something of one person & not another? we are all equal in his eyes… I do not believe Jesus wants all of us to give up every last material possession we have. I believe we are to share with the needy our excess… & we are all ALWAYs called to give up our possessions in our heart… to detach from them totally but that is extremely difficult if not impossible to do when we have a lot of creature comforts… Show me someone who has these things & is not attached to them to some degree or another… Jesus said that if our right eye offends us, we need to pluck it out… In other words, do anything you have to in order to avoid Hell… He said that getting to Heaven was NOT easy (St. Matthew 7:21, etc…)

Jesus does ask different things from different people othewise there would not be different parts in His Body, or different vocations. I agree that we are all called to be detached from material things if they take us away from God and that this is hard to do. I do think that God helps us to be detached from them by giving us a certain displeasure in them after a while. This is my experience.

 

[Nick9]

to detach from them totally but that is extremely difficult if not impossible to do when we have a lot of creature comforts… Show me someone who has these things & is not attached to them to some degree or another… Jesus said that if our right eye offends us, we need to pluck it out… In other words, do anything you have to in order to avoid Hell… He said that getting to Heaven was NOT easy (St. Matthew 7:21, etc…)

I agree that we need to avoid Hell at all costs. I think that we need to trust in God’s mercy more than our own efforts here, however. The Devil tempts people to despair who rely too heavily on their own efforts. They become over scrupulous and are tempted to see the road to heaven as beyond them, which of course it is without God’s help. I suffer from scrupulosity myself and often have to fall back on Jesus’ mercy and forgiveness after failing by my own efforts. It is often at the point where all seems hopeless and I am caught in a web of moral dilemas that I just give in and offer it up to Him. Then I just feel peace.

 

[distracted]

I think if we accept a spiritual director who has a good reputation and have faith that Jesus will guide us through him then we should be ok. I suppose if you have had bad experiences with a priest it would be hard to do that. I would imagine that it is not that hard to find a good priest if you look for one, however.

Jesus does ask different things from different people othewise there would not be different parts in His Body, or different vocations. .

i should have explaineed myself better… What i meant was there is not one set of 10 Commandments for one person and another set for someone else… and another for someone else… What is morally wrong for one person (hoarding wealth, neglecting the poor) is morally wrong for everyone…

 

[distracted]

I agree that we need to avoid Hell at all costs. I think that we need to trust in God’s mercy more than our own efforts here, however. The Devil tempts people to despair who rely too heavily on their own efforts. They become over scrupulous and are tempted to see the road to heaven as beyond them, which of course it is without God’s help. I suffer from scrupulosity myself and often have to fall back on Jesus’ mercy and forgiveness after failing by my own efforts. It is often at the point where all seems hopeless and I am caught in a web of moral dilemas that I just give in and offer it up to Him. Then I just feel peace.

well… some people are not scrupulous enough… and some people are scrupulous about some things (behaviors) in their lives & not others… they swat @ the gnat & swallow the camel…

I feel it can be just as difficult for some of us to trust in God (his mercy or whatever) than it is to be overly reliant on our own efforts… In other words, it is also WORK for some of us to trust God… seeing as how some of us have never been able to trust ANYONE… (technically, no one SHOULD trust any human… they are not trustworthy…) So… anyway… just wnted to make the point that “works” includes a lot of different things… not just volunterring @ soup kitchens… etc. It involved working to change oneself… change the way one thinks of God, which may be way off… Scrupulosity is a good example… We think that if we are not perfect, god won’t love us… that comes from peole in our lives not loving us unconditionally… and/or ourselves…

Anyway… i feel like i am on a rabbit trail so i guess i will leave it at that…

 

[distracted]

Thank you for this topic!!!

I have a terrible time with wasting time - especially feeling sorry for myself, being depressed and wasting time on the internet.

Please pray for me.

.

feeling sorry for yourself can be put to good use… i mean, when i am doing that… i just, at the same time, talk to God… give it all to God… & well… do this silent praying kind of thing… If you are feeling sorry for yourself “too much”… maybe it means that there are issues you haven’t given* totally* to God yet… ??otherwise, you would be doing something a little different (?). I don’t know if i am syaing this very well… but

as evil as the world we live in is… it is totally understandable to “feel sorry for” oneself… Maybe it is unhealthy NOT to…

i guess what i am saying is… hopefully you incorporate your self-pity into talking to God about what you feel self-pity ABOUT…

God bless…

 

[Nick9]

I feel it can be just as difficult for some of us to trust in God (his mercy or whatever) than it is to be overly reliant on our own efforts… In other words, it is also WORK for some of us to trust God… seeing as how some of us have never been able to trust ANYONE… (technically, no one SHOULD trust any human… they are not trustworthy…) So… anyway… just wnted to make the point that “works” includes a lot of different things… not just volunterring @ soup kitchens… etc. It involved working to change oneself… change the way one thinks of God, which may be way off… Scrupulosity is a good example… We think that if we are not perfect, god won’t love us… that comes from peole in our lives not loving us unconditionally… and/or ourselves…

I know where you are coming from, distracted. I struggle with the same issues. With this mindset, it is easy to think we are wasting time if we are not engaged in some ‘good work’ activity every moment of the day. Someone once said to me to just sit down quietly and let God love me. I find that hard for some reason. Maybe, as you say, it is a lack of unconditional love received as a child. I think many people are brought up that way, though it must have been subtle in my case because my parents were very good to me as a child.

 

[The_Dude]

Nick9,
“This is what the Zacchaeus story suggests to me.”
I agree. Not everyone is meant to serve their neighbor by selling all their possessions and Christ was driving at the RYR’s idol of money which does not apply to everyone. But that passage is generally used to support the evangelical counsel of poverty/charity (meaning one gives up everything, whether it be money or other affections/idols in service of Christ). Again, these counsels/acts are considered superogatory, beyond the minimum, but Christ did immediately say it’s hard for a rich man to enter heaven, which makes no sense if it was something “extra” that not everyone needs to worry about, only the more “holy” people.

“There has to be a deliberate element in our sin for it to be idolatry. We can commit a sin through human weakness, such as tiredness, fear, or absent mindedness, which is not a rejection of God’s will because it was not done with full consent against that will.”
Agreed, but if one realizes that whenever they are not obeying the 2GC and are putting themselves first deliberately, then it is done with full consent yes? Now many people unfortunately are likely not even aware they are sinning many times daily when putting their own interests first, but if “scrupulous” people are (not sure what is so scrupulous about it though), then they seem to be sinning. As James says, “to the one who knows to do good and does it not, it is sin”.

“Also, not all sins are of equal gravity.”
True, there will be different degrees of punishment (as there was in the OT) just as there are different degrees of glory. But as there is no exhaustive list of grave sins (or when certain sins change from venial to grave matter), seems one is left with just following one’s feelings as to whether some sins are grave or not. It seems from most examinations of conscience I’ve read that grave matter is more concerned with external actions and explicit violations of the decalogue (i.e. gravely committing idolatry is literally worshipping a false deity, rather than putting one’s desires first in self-idolatry or something; or stealing is literally robbing wealth (to some arbitrary extent, as a dollar would probably be considered venial) from someone, rather than stealing time from them or God to serve yourself), when thought and motivation can be just as sinful (as the Sermon on the Mount clarifies to a terrifying degree).

distracted,
“those belonging to religoius orders do not ignore the 10 C… that doesn’t make a lick of sense…”
His point was that they were missing/ignoring to what extent we actually do violate the 10C all the time, and the thought that their ascetic laws somehow gave them “more” to do to become more holy - no, keeping the 10C is more than enough for anyone. This kind of links back into the grave/venial distinction I was talking with nick9 about, how grave violations of the 10C are generally limited to just this very small subset of external acts, which is why Luther gives his lengthy exposition of the 10C in the large catechism (available online at www.bookofconcord.com if you want to peruse it ever).

“Luther’s words drip with hatred & contempt…”

He definitely does not mince words and goes overboard with the hyperbole sometimes, but again he is merely trying to hammer away the full force of the law upon the believer to kill off any self-righteousness or complacency they may be feeling, not wanting it to be “watered down” as it seemed to be at the time.

“I believe we are to share with the needy our excess… & we are all ALWAYs called to give up our possessions in our heart… to detach from them totally but that is extremely difficult if not impossible to do when we have a lot of creature comforts.”

This is very true indeed. The human heart is an idol factory.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

sometimes i feel i am not doing waht God wants… or at least not a lot of the time…

You???

Everyone is guilty of this at some point (usually many times) over our lives. It is just human nature.

 

[Nick9]

But that passage is generally used to support the evangelical counsel of poverty/charity (meaning one gives up everything, whether it be money or other affections/idols in service of Christ). Again, these counsels/acts are considered superogatory, beyond the minimum, but Christ did immediately say it’s hard for a rich man to enter heaven, which makes no sense if it was something “extra” that not everyone needs to worry about, only the more “holy” people.

There are not merely two options: being rich or being totally devoid of possessions. The Zacchaeus story shows us that having some possessions is legtimate. Therefore, being totally devoid of possessions is a special vocation and can be seen as “extra” to the normal observance of the Commandments.

Agreed, but if one realizes that whenever they are not obeying the 2GC and are putting themselves first deliberately, then it is done with full consent yes? Now many people unfortunately are likely not even aware they are sinning many times daily when putting their own interests first, but if “scrupulous” people are (not sure what is so scrupulous about it though), then they seem to be sinning. As James says, “to the one who knows to do good and does it not, it is sin”.

All sins violate the 2GC, but as I said, not all do so mortally, depending on their gravity and so on. Violating the 2GC is not automatically a mortal sin.

It seems from most examinations of conscience I’ve read that grave matter is more concerned with external actions and explicit violations of the decalogue (i.e. gravely committing idolatry is literally worshipping a false deity, rather than putting one’s desires first in self-idolatry or something; or stealing is literally robbing wealth (to some arbitrary extent, as a dollar would probably be considered venial) from someone, rather than stealing time from them or God to serve yourself), when thought and motivation can be just as sinful (as the Sermon on the Mount clarifies to a terrifying degree).

Thoughts and motivations are mortal if they are centred on mortal acts, but they are not as grave as those acts (just like intending to murder someone is not as bad as murdering them). A mortal intention is not something that a person falls into easily: it is a serious and deliberate intention to commit a serious sin in full knowledge. In the case of self-idolizing your desires, if this makes you seriously and deliberately ignore your duties to God, then it could be mortal, yes. Because mortal sins have strict conditions, we can all avoid them unless we freely choose not to.

So, to keep our discussion on topic, in order for wasting time to be a mortal sin, it needs to be a case of serious/grave neglect (of duties according to our state of life) with full intention to engage in such neglect and with full knowledge that we are doing so. This is not so easy to do.

 

[distracted]

I know where you are coming from, distracted. I struggle with the same issues. With this mindset, it is easy to think we are wasting time if we are not engaged in some ‘good work’ activity every moment of the day. Someone once said to me to just sit down quietly and let God love me. I find that hard for some reason. Maybe, as you say, it is a lack of unconditional love received as a child. I think many people are brought up that way, though it must have been subtle in my case because my parents were very good to me as a child.

i have come to the conclusion that no matter how loved we are as children… there is always some imperfection, something wanting… and it is a good thing… because if that weren’t the case, we would never desire God… and his absolutely perfect love…

Even so, that being said… maybe your parents were “good enough” but … well… something must be wrong or you would not speak of “lack of unconcitional love”… Anyway… i am just writing and thikning at the same time… not sure whre i am going with all this… I guess what i am saying is that… well, i already said it… Lack of human love (i could write a book on that one ) is often a blessing in disguise - because then we (can) see God for who he is… the only one who loves truly and always unconditionally… of course, if one doesn’t know God (i began to know him through the Church…)… then this lack of lvoe can lead to depression and worse…

which brings us to the importance of sharing what we know about God and his Church…

God bless…

 

[distracted]

Everyone is guilty of this at some point (usually many times) over our lives. It is just human nature.

true… but it would also help to KNOW what God wants…

I guess we have his Word to tell us what he requires… (not what he necessarily wants from each of us as unique individuals in the world)… i would like to know how i am to utilize my talents… but i think, now that i think about it, that God IS showing me this kind of thing… through circumstances, etc…

Hmm… Why was i “blind” to that before…

As you say… Human nature…

 

[Nick9]

i have come to the conclusion that no matter how loved we are as children… there is always some imperfection, something wanting… and it is a good thing… because if that weren’t the case, we would never desire God… and his absolutely perfect love…

good point. Our parent’s imperfections worked to our advantage then.

 

[distracted]

Nick9,
“This is what the Zacchaeus story suggests to me.”
I agree. Not everyone is meant to serve their neighbor by selling all their possessions and Christ was driving at the RYR’s idol of money which does not apply to everyone. .

I believe that we should all be willing to be poor… and i believe that God wants all of us to be whole-heartedly willing to accept poverty… Some people cannot accept losing their position in life. There is that story of the guy who ran a bank who, afterthe stock market crash of '29, lost a lot of material stuff ($) and killed himself…

What an awful reason to kill yourself… I could halfway see a person killing himself over some lost love or something… but over $??? That shows something about our society…

If a peron knows Jesus, he will not usually kill himself for either reason or for any other…Hmm… werid how it keeps being shown to me this morning… (guess i needed a reminder) the importance ofsharing what we know about Jesus… with anyone who will listen and even those who won’t… maybe especially those who won’t… :hypno: uch:

anyway, i believe that Americans, most of them, are not willing to be “poor”… . In fact, they look down their noses at poor people… tehy generally tend to think they are lazy and / or stupid or whatever… when maybe its just that they value things other than money and material gain.

Jesus was poor…

i told a Protestant woman that once and she got really* irate &*… almost screamed at me: “Jesus was NOT poor!”

Huh, what???

Hmm… maybe he had a mansion stashed somewhere? …

 

[Nick9]

we should be willing to be poor if that is what God wants of us.

Just like we should be willing to use our time as God wants us to (to keep it on topic ), which does not mean that we should necessarily spend it all in a soup kitchen, but can spend some of it doing ‘nothing’ (holy leisure I think they call it, as in the contemplative life).

 

[distracted]

good point. Our parent’s imperfections worked to our advantage then.

yeah… like all evil… and perceived evil… work to our advantage some way or the other…

It’s nice when we intentionally allow God to work in our circumstances…& our hearts/minds… but i just hope that he sometimes helps us even when we fight Him… :coffeeread:

hmmm… fighting God…

i sometimes feel i have been doing that, intentionally and not - so intentionally, all my life… :banghead: uch:

 

[Nick9]

It’s nice when we intentionally allow God to work in our circumstances…& our hearts/minds… but i just hope that he sometimes helps us even when we fight Him… :coffeeread:

I am sure God does help us despite our resistance, especially if our resistance is not direct resistance against God.

hmmm… fighting God…

i sometimes feel i have been doing that, intentionally and not - so intentionally, all my life… :banghead: uch:

don’t we all? Thank God for purgatory

 

[distracted]

we should be willing to be poor if that is what God wants of us.

i believe God wants all of us to be “poor” (comparatively speaking)… meaning that if we have 2 of something, and don’t use the 2nd one… we should give it away to someone who has none… How many people do this? If everyone did this, there would be no poverty in 3rd world countries… I am guilty of this myself… I save $ thinking i will need it for some rainy day… when i should just give it away… Some people have a “rainy day” every day (people in Haiti and Africa… etc)…

Just like we should be willing to use our time as God wants us to (to keep it on topic ), which does not mean that we should necessarily spend it all in a soup kitchen, but can spend some of it doing ‘nothing’ (holy leisure I think they call it, as in the contemplative life).

As confusing as my life is, i feel that i have to spend time in this kind of holy leisure… because i really don’t know what i am supposed to do about a few things… so i need to listen o Him… and it is important that i get certain things “right”… because, well, some people in my life are hard to… deal with and if i say/do the wrong thing… then… well… you know how it goes… :banghead: :whacky: uch:

 

[distracted]

I am sure God does help us despite our resistance, especially if our resistance is not direct resistance against God.

don’t we all? Thank God for purgatory

yeah… i can’t help but think:

Those Protestants better hope with all their hearts that there IS a purgatory…

(since, for one thing… No impure thing will enter heaven)

 

[Nick9]

i believe God wants all of us to be “poor” (comparatively speaking)… meaning that if we have 2 of something, and don’t use the 2nd one… we should give it away to someone who has none… How many people do this? If everyone did this, there would be no poverty in 3rd world countries… I am guilty of this myself… I save $ thinking i will need it for some rainy day… when i should just give it away… Some people have a “rainy day” every day (people in Haiti and Africa… etc)…

this reminds us that we are all imperfect. I have minimal possessions, but I am a king compared with those in 3rd world countries. I think as long as we don’t refuse what we have to those who need it in our day to day lives, we are not being so bad. I try and give a bit to Cafod every now and then, but I don’t have that much surplus cash to be honest.

As confusing as my life is, i feel that i have to spend time in this kind of holy leisure… because i really don’t know what i am supposed to do about a few things… so i need to listen o Him… and it is important that i get certain things “right”… because, well, some people in my life are hard to… deal with and if i say/do the wrong thing… then… well… you know how it goes… :banghead: :whacky: uch:

life is tough and don’t be so hard on yourself. I know that you have had some bad experiences and I am sure that God doesn’t expect as much from you as you suppose He does. Have you ever offered your sufferings up in union with Christ’s for the salvation of sinners? There may be an element of the ‘vicitm soul’ in your vocation, as I think there is in mine to some degree (maybe also in all of us).

 

[distracted]

this reminds us that we are all imperfect. I have minimal possessions, but I am a king compared with those in 3rd world countries. I think as long as we don’t refuse what we have to those who need it in our day to day lives, we are not being so bad. I try and give a bit to Cafod every now and then, but I don’t have that much surplus cash to be honest.

i could have written this myself… except i don’t know what Cafod is???

life is tough and don’t be so hard on yourself. I know that you have had some bad experiences and I am sure that God doesn’t expect as much from you as you suppose He does.

probably not… i think he has been trying to tell me something like this for awhile… but you know hard-headed we humanoids can be… :banghead:

Have you ever offered your sufferings up in union with Christ’s for the salvation of sinners?

YES!! This is one of the greatest treasures of the Church i have discovered (i had to teach myself the faith since i wasn’t catechized as a chlld, to speak of)…

It is so wonderful to get meaning out of our sufferings… a teaching / practice the Catholic Church has that no other does..

here may be an element of the ‘vicitm soul’ in your vocation, as I think there is in mine to some degree (maybe also in all of us).

yes, that thought has definitely crossed my mind. I don’t feel worthy of such a thing and i don’t spose i am… but… anyway… It is… well, another wonderful teaching of the Church: that we can share in the sufferings of Christ… thereby bonding us to Him more completely and whole-heartedly… You never really KNOW someone until you have walked a mile in His shoes…

How i love the Catholic Church all the more for these kinds of teachings…

which, for about the 10th time this morning, reminds me… of the importance of sharing our faith… even when/if people don’t want to hear it… They really DO wnat to hear it… even when they act like they don’t… Could really be just an act… and if they knew the truth of the Catholic faith… well… like i said, they would definitely realize that they WANT / need to hear it…