Do you consider this a "proof" text against Mary's sinlessness

  • Thread starter Thread starter MarcoPolo
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
justinthemartyr said:
But as was stated previously, augustine is not the end all of decisions on faith and morals. The church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth. 1 tim 3:15.
Click to expand...
As was also stated previously: of course he wasn’t; but the apostles were, and when it is said by apostolic testimony that all have sinned, that’s what I’m believing, along with Augustine. 🙂
 
But what about Romans 3:23, “all have sinned”? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they “had done nothing either good or bad” (Rom. 9:11).

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
 
so how does an unborn baby sin?

how does a mentally retarded person sin?

how does a 1 year old sin?
 
mgrfin said:
You got no citation. So, as far, as I am concerned he never said it.

The Confessions? That would be a good guess.
Click to expand...
It’s not a guess.
40.png
mgrfin:
My attitude is just fine.
Click to expand...
Then take your fine attitude, and read all of the confessions. 🙂
 
Romans is not speaking of individuals, but nations.

Christianity, it not like Protestantism, where its the indivdual that matters, thats something new to Christianity that was pushed by the late followers of the deformers (not reformers). Protestants very rarely speak fo the Covenant since its a communal concept and very far from all the heretical Sola’s they preach.

This whole conversation is easily answered once you admit that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and that the Ark was in the Holy of Holies and it contained three symbols of Jesus Christ, making it all-holy and stainless. Mary, being the fulfillment of the Ark, likewise, has those attributes and hence is: Immaculeatly Concieved and Sinless.
 
sandusky said:
As was also stated previously: of course he wasn’t; but the apostles were, and when it is said by apostolic testimony that all have sinned, that’s what I’m believing, along with Augustine. 🙂
Click to expand...
So what you are now saying is that Augustine said that ‘all men sinned’ through Adam.

Obviously.

But, infants committing personal sin? I don’t think so.

Just another wild goose chase.

peace
 
Ginger2 said:
I guess that is why protestants have thousands opinions about what the scriptures say, and what Jesus said.

Jesus left us confused, I guess. His Holy Spirit doesn’t speak through his Church, but rather he speaks to these protestants, without a single voice? Private interpretation is the law of God?

It is a nice concept, Ginger, but the Scriptures tell us Jesus said that upon Peter He would build his Church, and the gates of hell will not perserve against it. But you don’t accept that.

You accept the meaning of Scripture that opposes the Catholic Church. But your meaning of Scripture doesn’t teach you anything about doctrine or faith.

Thank God for the Catholic Church, and for those seeking the truth.

You spit out scriptural quotes, but you don’t believe the Scriptures. You put forward scriptures, and tell us your private interpretation.

You don’t like Church Doctors, now, Ginger? So you don’t like our learned men, what does Christ’s Church teach about the Blessed Virgin, Mary the Mother of God, the Real Presence, the Infallibility of the Pope, Salvation by Grace, The Sacraments, including the Sacrifice of the Mass, original sin, free will, the Holy Spirit on His Church, the Incarnation, the Trinity, the Redemption, the Canon of the Bible, and its Interpretation.

God has revealed the Truth through Divine Revelation, the Scriptures and the teaching Magisterium of the Church he founded. What a fool God would be to rely on the mayhem that Protestantism’s confusion in its current state would cause to the salvation of men.

That is why outside the Church there is no salvation.

He taught us about the Sinlessness of the Virgin Mary through his Scriptures and through his Church.

Please stop denying her the proper place in the Redemptive process God has given her.

peace
Click to expand...
 
Ginger2 said:
What are you suggesting?
Click to expand...
Simply that God the Father in Heaven has continued to reveal Truths to mankind over the centuries.

I do not recall a verse where Jesus tells the Apostles “Four of you write this all down.” Jesus taught orally, why would his students feel obligated to do differently. This is the foundation of Sacred Tradition.

As far as St. Augustine is concerned, he’s a quote I found of his from New Advent.

“In refuting Pelagius, St. Augustine declares that all the just have truly known of sin “except the Holy Virgin Mary, of whom, for the honour of the Lord, I will have no question whatever where sin is concerned” (De naturâ et gratiâ 36).”
 
Ginger2 said:
mgrfin, please cite the post # where someone said infants can commit personal sin.

Or are you misinterpreting again?
Click to expand...
Don’t get nasty with me, Ginger. You’re the one who has misread posts in the past, and had to apologize for it.

BTW whoever told you I was a “he”. You and Sandusky are jumping to conclusions.

Post 138 is where Sandusky said it.

peace
 
Ezekiel 18
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 **"What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel:
The fathers eat sour grapes, (A)
Code: 
and the children's teeth are set on edge? (B)**

3 **As I live"—[this is] the declaration of the Lord GOD —"you will no longer use this proverb in Israel.** (C) 4 Look, every life belongs to Me. (D) The life of the father is like the life of the son—both belong to Me. **The person who sins is the one who will die. (E)**

5 "Now suppose a man is righteous and does what is just and right: 6 He does not eat at the mountain [shrines] (F) or raise his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor's wife (G) or come near a woman during her menstrual impurity. (H) 7 He doesn't oppress anyone (I) but returns his collateral to the debtor. (J) He does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry (K) and covers the naked with clothing. 8 He doesn't lend at interest or for profit (L) but keeps his hand from wrongdoing and carries out true justice between men. (M) 9 He follows My statutes and keeps My ordinances, acting faithfully. Such a person is righteous; he will certainly live." (N) [This is] the declaration of the Lord GOD .

10 "Now suppose the man has a violent son, who sheds blood (O) and does any of these [things], 11 though the father has done none of them. Indeed, when the son eats at the mountain [shrines] and defiles his neighbor's wife, 12 and [when] he oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, and does not return collateral, and [when] he raises his eyes to the idols, commits abominations, (P) 13 and lends at interest or for profit, will he live? He will not live! Since he has committed all these abominations, he will certainly die. His blood will be on him. (Q)

14 "Now suppose he has a son who sees all the sins his father has committed, and though he sees them, he does not do likewise. 15 He does not eat at the mountain [shrines] or raise his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor's wife. 16 He doesn't oppress anyone, hold collateral, or commit robbery. He gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing. 17 He keeps his hand from [harming] the poor, not taking interest or profit [on a loan]. He practices My ordinances and follows My statutes. **Such a person will not die for his father's iniquity. He will certainly live.**

18 "As for his father, he will die for his own iniquity because he practiced fraud, robbed [his] brother, and did what was wrong among his people. (R) 19 But you may ask: Why doesn't the son suffer punishment for the father's iniquity? (S) Since the son has done what is just and right, carefully observing all My statues, he will certainly live. 20 **The person who sins is the one who will die**. (T) A son won't suffer punishment for the father's iniquity, and a father won't suffer punishment for the son's iniquity. (U) **The righteousness of the righteous person will be on him, (V) and the wickedness of the wicked person will be on him. (W)**

21 "Now if the wicked person turns from all the sins he has committed, (X) keeps all My statutes, and does what is just and right, he will certainly live; he will not die. 22 None of the transgressions he has committed will be held against him. (Y) He will live because of the righteousness he has practiced. (Z) 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked?" (AA) [This is] the declaration of the Lord GOD . "Instead, don't I [take pleasure] when he turns from his ways and lives? 24 But when a righteous person turns from his righteousness (AB) and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations that the wicked do, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. (AC) He will die because of the treachery he has engaged in and the sin he has committed.

25 "But you say: The Lord's way isn't fair. (AD) Now listen, house of Israel: Is it My way that is unfair? Instead, isn't it your ways that are unfair? 26 **When a righteous person turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, he will die for this. He will die because of the iniquity he has practiced. 27 But if a wicked person turns from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will preserve his life.** 28 He will certainly live because he thought it over and turned from all the transgressions he had committed; he will not die. 29 But the house of Israel says: The Lord's way isn't fair. Is it My ways that are unfair, house of Israel? Instead, isn't it your ways that are unfair?
 
30 **“Therefore, house of Israel, I will judge each one of you according to his ways.” **(AE) [This is] the declaration of the Lord GOD . “Repent and turn from all your transgressions, so they will not be a stumbling block that causes your punishment. 31 Throw off all the transgressions you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. (AF) Why should you die, house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in anyone’s death.” [This is] the declaration of the Lord GOD . "**So repent and live! **

Cross references:

Ezekiel 18:2 : Lm 5:7;
Ezekiel 18:2 : Jr 31:29;
Ezekiel 18:3 : Ezk 12:23;
Ezekiel 18:4 : Num 16:22; 27:16;
Ezekiel 18:4 : Dt 24:16; Ezk 18:20; Rm 6:23;
Ezekiel 18:6 : Ezk 22:9;
Ezekiel 18:6 : Ex 20:17-18; Lv 20:10;
Ezekiel 18:6 : Lv 18:19-20;
Ezekiel 18:7 : Ex 22:21;
Ezekiel 18:7 : Dt 24:12-13;
Ezekiel 18:7 : Mt 25:35-40;
Ezekiel 18:8 : Ex 22:25; Lv 25:35-37;
Ezekiel 18:8 : Zch 8:16;
Ezekiel 18:9 : Am 5:4;
Ezekiel 18:10 : Num 35:31;
Ezekiel 18:12 : Ezk 8:6;, 17;
Ezekiel 18:13 : Lv 20:9;, 11;
Ezekiel 18:18 : Ezk 3:18;
Ezekiel 18:19 : Ex 20:5;
Ezekiel 18:20 : Ezk 18:4;
Ezekiel 18:20 : Dt 24:16; Jn 9:2;
Ezekiel 18:20 : Is 3:10-11;
Ezekiel 18:20 : Rm 2:6-9;
Ezekiel 18:21 : Ezk 33:12;, 19;
Ezekiel 18:22 : Ezk 33:16;
Ezekiel 18:22 : Ps 18:20-24;
Ezekiel 18:23 : Ezk 33:11;
Ezekiel 18:24 : Ezk 3:20; 33:18;
Ezekiel 18:24 : 2Pt 2:20;
Ezekiel 18:25 : Ezk 18:29; 33:17;, 20;
Ezekiel 18:30 : Ezk 7:3;, 8; 33:20;
Ezekiel 18:31 : Jr 32:39;
 
pete_29 said:
How very Christian of you.😦
Click to expand...
Excuse me please. But, but mgrfin has repeatedly been rude on this and other threads I am on.

I told Sundusky that it is just mgrfin’s way to be sarcastic so he wouldn’t take it personally. Then mgrfin starts making a big deal because I said “he”. Who cares?

But I am wondering why you feel fine with mgrfin making snide remarks and you sit just back quietly.

It was a joke. And mgrfin told me "she"was a “he” a long time ago. And also told me “she” has at least one son.

So, what do you say we get back to the thread, and quit wasting time on this nonsense. 🙂

Deal? 👍
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top