Do you Deutero?

[ryanoneil]

Here is one in my (The New American Bible)

Wisdom 2:12-20 *“For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him.” *

Mat 27:42-43 *“He saved others; he cannot save himself. So he is the king of Israel! Let him come down from the cross now, and we will believe in him. He trusted in God; let Him deliver him now if he wants him. For he said, I am the Son of God’” *

Seems pretty convincing to me.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Zooey]

I once heard a Protestant say that no councils were needed to determine the Canon because of:John 10:4 his sheep follow him because they know his voice…implying that any Christian will simply know what is God’s word or not. And unfortunately, I was not able to give him multiple choice listing a variety of passages from the Deuterocanon and Protocanon…wonder how he would have done.

Oh, yes, I’ve heard that one, too.
I just smiled and said, “Yes, I know, and that’s why I recognize the Deuterocanon”. (I surely do hope that they’re not still standing there, with their mouths open!! That was more than 30 years ago!!! )

 

[ryanoneil]

I hit “F5” on the keyboard. Is this what you were asking?

Yes thank you!

 

[Pious_Mat]

I hope that all Catholics here know that the authenticity of the Deuterocanonicals is not up for debate. The magisterium ruled they were divinely inspired, and that’s that. Protestants here are certainly entitled to their beliefs and opinions (and let me say to all Protestants on the forums, I certainly appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut and admire the commitment of many Protestants to biblical scholarship), but Catholics are told be of one mind on the subject.

That said, there seems to be little question over the Deuteros among the Church fathers. Augustine was convinced they were inspired (he makes no distinction between them and other books of the OT), as was Jerome after he had read and examined them closely. In fact, Jerome’s change of heart is a strong testament to their enduring power and quality.

The esteemed Jimmy Akin proves their authenticity quite well:

geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/deuterocanonicals.html

As to whether or not they are worth reading, if you believe they are inspired, they are certainly worth reading–who would dismiss the Word of God? And even if you believe they aren’t, Martin Luther said they were useful and worth reading, and included them in an appendix at the back of his translation of the Bible. There is virtually no reason for the educated Christian to not read them.

 

[ryanoneil]

b.) I grant that much of the NT references the septuagint but it is my understanding that the only manuscripts of the septuagint that we have are Christian manuscripts from the 4th century.

We do not know, with certainty, what the Jewish septuagint was comprised of and this is of course the text that would have been quoted. We also do not know how many versions of this septuagint may have been floating around and if they differed in how many and which book they included.

c.) Even if we did know which books made up the Jewish septuagint which some folks apparently refer to as the Alexandrian canon, we still have the issue of the NT either being silent w/ regards to the deutero’s or never quoting them in such a way as to reveal that they are scripture and therefore inspired.

Let’s see where this goes.

I can’t respond to alot of your observations but we do see quite of bit of historical evidence when reading the Early Church Fathers and the Didache.

“Having then this hope, let our souls be bound to Him who is faithful in His promises, and just in His judgments. He who has commanded us not to lie, shall much more Himself not lie; for nothing is impossible with God, except to lie. Let His faith therefore be stirred up again within us, and let us consider that all things are nigh unto Him. By the word of His might He established all things, and by His word He can overthrow them. ‘Who shall say unto Him, What hast thou done ? Or, who shall resist the power of His strength?’[Wisdom 12:12,ll:22] When and as He pleases He will do all things, and none of the things determined by Him shall pass away? All things are open before Him, and nothing can be hidden from His counsel. ‘The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament showeth His handy-work. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. And there are no words or speeches of which the voices are not heard.’[Ps. 19:1-3].” Clement of Rome,To the Corinthians, 27:5 (c. A.D. 80).

“‘Be just in your judgement’ [Deut 1:16,17 Prov 31:9] make no distinction between man and man when correcting transgressions. Do not waver in your decision. ‘Do not be one that opens his hands to receive, but shuts them when it comes to giving’ **[Sirach 4:31]. **” Didache, 4:3-5 (A.D. 90).

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Pwrlftr]

I can’t respond to alot of your observations but we do see quite of bit of historical evidence when reading the Early Church Fathers and the Didache.

“Having then this hope, let our souls be bound to Him who is faithful in His promises, and just in His judgments. He who has commanded us not to lie, shall much more Himself not lie; for nothing is impossible with God, except to lie. Let His faith therefore be stirred up again within us, and let us consider that all things are nigh unto Him. By the word of His might He established all things, and by His word He can overthrow them. ‘Who shall say unto Him, What hast thou done ? Or, who shall resist the power of His strength?’[Wisdom 12:12,ll:22] When and as He pleases He will do all things, and none of the things determined by Him shall pass away? All things are open before Him, and nothing can be hidden from His counsel. ‘The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament showeth His handy-work. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. And there are no words or speeches of which the voices are not heard.’[Ps. 19:1-3].” Clement of Rome,To the Corinthians, 27:5 (c. A.D. 80).

“‘Be just in your judgement’ [Deut 1:16,17 Prov 31:9] make no distinction between man and man when correcting transgressions. Do not waver in your decision. ‘Do not be one that opens his hands to receive, but shuts them when it comes to giving’ **[Sirach 4:31]. **” Didache, 4:3-5 (A.D. 90).

Peace,

Ryan

Thanks for your post Ryan.

You are right. There are definitely some ECF’s who accept the deutero’s as fully canonical/inspired.

 

[Pwrlftr]

I agree some of scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html seem weak at first glance but I think it is convincing. It doesn’t hurt to take a second look at it. I think I’ll look up some of the verses in my Bible and see if they reference one another.

Peace,

Ryan

Ryan,

I will take a look back at scripture catholic and see what I can find and I did see your other post and will take a look at that too.

 

[NewAbdalMaseeh]

a.) I don’t believe there are many (maybe next to none) references to the deutero’s in the NT.

The already mentioned correspondence between the passage in Matthew and the passage in Wisdom is about as close as we get. What I would offer, however, is that the NT also fails to quote books like Obadiah and Esther.

Beyond that, I would ask that you visit the other recent thread on this subject…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=205905

…in which I show that, apparently, even Josephus and certain Talmudic sages were employing a canon that included texts now called “Deuterocanonical”.

The real question is how do we determine our canon? I think those who reject the so-called “Deuterocanonical” texts make a mistake in assuming that the OT canon is decided by appealing to the canon of a specific community of disbelieving Jews whose canon was not solidified until well after the dawn of the common era.

 

[Pwrlftr]

The already mentioned correspondence between the passage in Matthew and the passage in Wisdom is about as close as we get. What I would offer, however, is that the NT also fails to quote books like Obadiah and Esther.

Beyond that, I would ask that you visit the other recent thread on this subject…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=205905

…in which I show that, apparently, even Josephus and certain Talmudic sages were employing a canon that included texts now called “Deuterocanonical”.

The real question is how do we determine our canon? I think those who reject the so-called “Deuterocanonical” texts make a mistake in assuming that the OT canon is decided by appealing to the canon of a specific community of disbelieving Jews whose canon was not solidified until well after the dawn of the common era.

Thanks for your post.

The link you provided is short but full of information so it will take a little bit to get through but after skimming it I have a question for you.

Do you believe that Josephus clearly listed the canon at 22 books and excluded 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Tobit, and Baruch? If you don’t, why?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Oh, yes, I’ve heard that one, too.
I just smiled and said, “Yes, I know, and that’s why I recognize the Deuterocanon”. (I surely do hope that they’re not still standing there, with their mouths open!! That was more than 30 years ago!!! )

 

[thistle]

DEUTEROCANONICALS REFERENCED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT

Matt. 2:16 - Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Matt… 7:12 - Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 - the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 - the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matt. 27:43 - if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.

Luke 1:52 - Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

Luke 2:29 - Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 13:29 - the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 - Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke’s description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.

John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.

John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 - Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.

John 15:6 - branches that don’t bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.

Acts 1:15 - Luke’s reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.

Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter’s and Paul’s statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.

Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.

Rom 1:18-25 - Paul’s teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.

Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God’s existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.

Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.

Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.

Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.

Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.

Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.

1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul’s question, “who has known the mind of the Lord?” references Wisdom 9:13.

1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.

1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many “gods” but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.

1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul’s description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.

1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.

1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.

continued…

 

[thistle]

continued…

Eph. 1:17 - Paul’s prayer for a “spirit of wisdom” follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.

Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1Thess. 5:8.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul’s description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.

2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul’s description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.

Heb. 4:12 - Paul’s description of God’s word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.

Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 6:18, 7:1-42.

Heb. 12:12 - the description “drooping hands” and “weak knees” comes from Sirach 25:23.

James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.

James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 3:13 - James’ instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.

James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.

James 5:6 - condemning and killing the “righteous man” follows Wisdom 2:10-20.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.

2 Peter 2:7 - God’s rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.

Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.

Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God’s Word in Wisdom 18:16.

Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.

Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.

Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.

Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.

Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.

Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 19:1 - the cry “Hallelujah” at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.

Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.

Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.

Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.