- Status
W
Whdevo
Guest
Hi,
I agree and (respectfully) disagree with what you say …
Firstly, to say: “God used Judas to accomplish His purpose and to fulfill prophecy” is to make the mistake of believing that we can actually rationalise the reasoning of God, the Supreme Being, and something tells me that that is inappropriate.
If we read the Bible, we see various incidents in which individuals (from all walks of life) are used as “instruments of God”.
From this, I take the belief that, whether we choose to accept it or not, we are all “instruments of God”, and that includes Judas.
That is why, I believe, we are told to “judge not that ye be not judged”, because we never can know in what way God is using this or that “instrument” of his -in fact it would be impertinent of us to even attmmpt to do so-.
(This may appear to be over the top, but, by my reading, this is what The Bible says …)
As to whether Judas is in Heaven, again, I believe that, if it has not been written in the Bible, then God doesn’t think it is something of import for us to know.
But, if Jesus Christ died (as I was taught at school) for the forgiveness of all sins up to that time, and for the possibility of forgiveness of sins thereafer, then, if Judas died before Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ’s death would have forgiven the sin (if it was a sin … it is not for us to conjecture) of betrayal.
If Judas died after Jesus Christ, then the fact that he “repented”, would have seen him forgiven.
(Or, am I now venturing into the realms of “conjecture” that I have waxed so voluminously against in past postings? You see … it’s so easily done).
God Bless
William
Z
zab
Guest
I don’t know of any Bible reference to this. It was just the understanding that I came to during my reflection on the topic. However, I do not intend to say that my understanding could be without error.
D
debraran
Guest
What understanding of grace or forgiveness did they have then?? No one really understood Jesus fully, we struggle, but at least have history to help us. They saw things we would marvel at, but they still did’n’t see the whole picture.There wasn’t “sins against the holy spirit” Jesus hadn’t even rose yet and even then they didn’t understand.
Peter, denied him, hid out, none of them except John was under the cross (that’s sad) and Thomas asked later, for him to prove he was risen. (from our standpoint, that’s silly, but not theirs) He asked Peter if he loved him 3 times to emphasize his denial and forgiveness I felt. I don’t recall Peter actually asking for his forgiveness…he just said he loved him. Jesus knows all things, he knew Judas’s heart, but he was also human with human feelings…he felt, anger, hurt, happiness, all our emotions.
Back then, in Jewish law your name was very important. Jewish scholars have mentioned to tarnish your name was a sin and they said to have your name forever tarnished, would make you wish you never were born…different times, different outlooks.
But for me, not judging, mercy and “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do” covered all. He doesn’t single anyone out as being undeserving.
Peter, denied him, hid out, none of them except John was under the cross (that’s sad) and Thomas asked later, for him to prove he was risen. (from our standpoint, that’s silly, but not theirs) He asked Peter if he loved him 3 times to emphasize his denial and forgiveness I felt. I don’t recall Peter actually asking for his forgiveness…he just said he loved him. Jesus knows all things, he knew Judas’s heart, but he was also human with human feelings…he felt, anger, hurt, happiness, all our emotions.
Back then, in Jewish law your name was very important. Jewish scholars have mentioned to tarnish your name was a sin and they said to have your name forever tarnished, would make you wish you never were born…different times, different outlooks.
But for me, not judging, mercy and “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do” covered all. He doesn’t single anyone out as being undeserving.
K
KingAlfred
Guest
I loathe what he did, but understand the horrible reality of betraying those we love. As a young man, I betrayed many people in my life, out of selfishness, carelessness, stupidity…sinfulness. One of the blessings of growing old is to be able to look back on those kinds of mistakes, regret having made them, and strive not to make them again.
W
Whdevo
Guest
Hi,
I think you might mean that “All our actions are pre-known to God”, rather than “pre-ordained”, although I know that that opens up a wholly different argument (and I “think …” with all due resect).
With the rest of your posting, I agree.
God Bless
William
A
azjanet
Guest
It is possible for Judas to have repented of taking his own life in the last seconds of his life as he was hanging himself after it was too late to stop the deed.
He was remorseful for betraying Jesus when he tried to give back the silver but then he took his own life which is another sin entirely. Only God can judge if Judas was culpable for his state of mind when he hung himself if he was not sorry that he was hanging himself.
God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4) so He prevents no person from being saved. Since He desires every man to be saved, then He cannot thwart His own desire (for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth) by forcing someone to disobey Him and consequently then be condemned to hell. If He did this, then He could not be God because He cannot thwart His own desire that “all men be saved.” So, what makes the difference in whether a person is saved or not since God desires all men to be saved?
All persons have free will to choose to believe in God and to obey Him. But if they do not, then they will face the wrath of God (2 Thessalonians 1:8).
Judas had free will. God knew what Judas and each one of us would do for every minute of his/her life, way before God even created mankind, and therefore because of this fact, He knew that Judas would betray Jesus. All prophecies were given with this fact in mind. The prophecy did not determine the deed. The deed (foreknown before the foundation of the world) determined the prophecy. God absolutely did not force Judas to betray Jesus. (Romans 8:29, Revelation 13:8)
I learned also in catechism class that if Judas did not repent of taking his own life as he was being hanged, then he committed a sin against the Holy Spirit, which was believing that his own sin was greater than God’s mercy.
Peter betrayed Jesus but he chose to repent of his sin and he was forgiven and even became the leader of the Catholic Church. Judas also betrayed Jesus but he chose to hang himself rather than “do works worthy of repentance” (Luke 3:7-9). If your works do not prove your faith, then you have no true repentance nor true faith at all.
We are judged on Judgment Day by our “works,” not by our “faith” (Matthew 25:31-46). Why aren’t we judged by our faith? Because “works” prove whether we have faith or not. Our good works made known on Judgment Day prove that we truly believed (had a saving faith). If we had bad works and/or no good works, then these works prove that we never really “believed” in the first place and that we had not actually “followed” Jesus in imitation of Him. (1 Corinthians 11:1, Hebrews 6:11-12) Therefore we did not have a true saving faith.
What of those who were righteous but sinned and never repented again?
Ezekiel 33:12-19 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live (inherit eternal life), but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. (be condemned to hell) 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it.”
He was remorseful for betraying Jesus when he tried to give back the silver but then he took his own life which is another sin entirely. Only God can judge if Judas was culpable for his state of mind when he hung himself if he was not sorry that he was hanging himself.
God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4) so He prevents no person from being saved. Since He desires every man to be saved, then He cannot thwart His own desire (for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth) by forcing someone to disobey Him and consequently then be condemned to hell. If He did this, then He could not be God because He cannot thwart His own desire that “all men be saved.” So, what makes the difference in whether a person is saved or not since God desires all men to be saved?
All persons have free will to choose to believe in God and to obey Him. But if they do not, then they will face the wrath of God (2 Thessalonians 1:8).
Judas had free will. God knew what Judas and each one of us would do for every minute of his/her life, way before God even created mankind, and therefore because of this fact, He knew that Judas would betray Jesus. All prophecies were given with this fact in mind. The prophecy did not determine the deed. The deed (foreknown before the foundation of the world) determined the prophecy. God absolutely did not force Judas to betray Jesus. (Romans 8:29, Revelation 13:8)
I learned also in catechism class that if Judas did not repent of taking his own life as he was being hanged, then he committed a sin against the Holy Spirit, which was believing that his own sin was greater than God’s mercy.
Peter betrayed Jesus but he chose to repent of his sin and he was forgiven and even became the leader of the Catholic Church. Judas also betrayed Jesus but he chose to hang himself rather than “do works worthy of repentance” (Luke 3:7-9). If your works do not prove your faith, then you have no true repentance nor true faith at all.
We are judged on Judgment Day by our “works,” not by our “faith” (Matthew 25:31-46). Why aren’t we judged by our faith? Because “works” prove whether we have faith or not. Our good works made known on Judgment Day prove that we truly believed (had a saving faith). If we had bad works and/or no good works, then these works prove that we never really “believed” in the first place and that we had not actually “followed” Jesus in imitation of Him. (1 Corinthians 11:1, Hebrews 6:11-12) Therefore we did not have a true saving faith.
What of those who were righteous but sinned and never repented again?
Ezekiel 33:12-19 “Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people: ‘The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.’ 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live (inherit eternal life), but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. (be condemned to hell) 14 Again, when I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16 None of his sins which he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it.”
W
Whdevo
Guest
Hi,
I read your post with interest …
Matthew 27:3 When Judas, his betrayer, saw that he was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders,
So, according to the Bible, Judas did “repent” …
Earlier in this thread, I postulated:-
"Now, if the death of Christ (after Judas had hanged himself) was to atone all sin up until that time and to allow for the forgiveness of sins in the future -or have I got it wrong?-, this, coupled with the fact that Judas “repented” before he died, would indicate to me that, rather than a “demon in hell” (as is alluded to in another post), he is in heaven.
If we believe that God motivates all, then we must accept that it was God who motivated Judas to play the necessary part he played n the Crucifixion.
Would not, then, especially given his “repentance”, any other eventuality be “unjust” (and God cannot be unjust …)?"
I would respectfully suggest that, to imply “desire” in God, is to anthropomorphize God (and that is, of course, inappropriate, because God is beyond compare, especially with His creation, man.
Further, if God did “desire” that all men be saved, then, because He is God, all men would be saved …
But what does the Bible tell us?
Matthew 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
Matthew 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
Matthew 26:27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you;
Matthew 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out FOR MANY for the forgiveness of sins.
etc., etc. …
My understanding, from the Bible, is that God has put the path to a perfect life which will be rewarded by eternity with Him, before all men, but it is up to each individual if he wishes to follow it (“FOR MANY”).
And, given that we are informed:-
Matthew 7:21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Matthew 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’
I would suggest that God most certainly does not seem to “desire ALL men to be saved” …
As to Judas, and his free-will, what does the Bible tell us about that?
Luke 22:3 Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve;
When the spirit of Satan enters into an individual does that individual still have free will?
The Bible does not tell us, and, therefore, it is not the case that God has decided that it is not necessary for us to know … ?
Judas, I believe, was, like you and I are, an instrument of God, and God worked through Judas, the same way as God works through all of us.
And, if this is the case, then who are we, to, in any way, question what has been put in place by God, and to import motives where God has informed us of none?
Do we really believe that, by those conjectures and importations of motives, we improve the Word of God"?!**
Peter, I believe also, was, liewise an instrument of God …
I don’t know the answer, but, because the Bible does not advise of this aspect, I can only assume that God, in His infinite wisdom, has decided that it is not important for us to know this in order that we might live a perfect life.
Indeed, I agree that, on the Judgement Day, we will all be called to account for our “works”, and also that what we have done will be compared with what God has told us that we should do to be worthy of Him, and, by that standard, shall we “stand or fall”.
I have enjoyed replying to you, and hope that my comments are of interest …
God Bless
William
N
Ne_OrangeKnight
Guest
As has been recvently brought up, Judas’s dispair and suicide are an entirely different sin from his betrayal of the Lord. Whether he repented of this, we cannot know.
But we don’t. God doesn’t motivate everyone, and not all of the time. God no more motivated Judas to betray Christ than He motivates me in the dozens of betrayals (sins) that I commit every day. He certainly desires that all people be saved, but He also gave us free will, and we can say yes or no to Him as we choose. Our eternal destinies are not pre-decided by God.
Sam, the Neon Orange Knight
D
debraran
Guest
You can’t really “sin against the holy spirit”, when the spirit hadn’t come and descended upon the apostles. They didn’t know what was going to happen and weren’t even waiting or guarding Jesus.
Also, suicide is not a natural thought, although some sick patients will “logically” decide, most people are in a mental state of confusion and despair. I heard Mother Angelica comfort a woman who’s daughter commited suicide with stories of saints, etc. but ended with “God knows all, he is compassionate and love, TRUST him”. That’s hard for most of us, we have to try to figure everything out…but trust in fairness because he is not human is all that is needed. He certainly doesn’t need our arguments or comments either way.
And remember, Jesus could have stopped the arrest at any time, he had escaped before, but he couldn’t, for it was his Father’s will.
Also, suicide is not a natural thought, although some sick patients will “logically” decide, most people are in a mental state of confusion and despair. I heard Mother Angelica comfort a woman who’s daughter commited suicide with stories of saints, etc. but ended with “God knows all, he is compassionate and love, TRUST him”. That’s hard for most of us, we have to try to figure everything out…but trust in fairness because he is not human is all that is needed. He certainly doesn’t need our arguments or comments either way.
And remember, Jesus could have stopped the arrest at any time, he had escaped before, but he couldn’t, for it was his Father’s will.
W
wcknight
Guest
I would say He COULD have escaped but He chose not to…
J
jmcrae
Guest
To escape would have been to not own up to His own divinity - a moral impossibility. So, although He could certainly have done so physically, morally, it was impossible. By facing the consequences of His claim to be God, He affirms that He is indeed God - that He meant what He said with every drop of blood in His body.
A
azjanet
Guest
A
azjanet
Guest
Continuation for William
Regarding: My understanding, from the Bible, is that God has put the path to a perfect life which will be rewarded by eternity with Him, before all men, but it is up to each individual if he wishes to follow it (“FOR MANY”).
I agree that we must choose to follow Jesus in imitation of His life in order to be saved. “For many” and “for all” are used interchangeably in the Bible sometimes. Why? I do not know.
Matthew 7:21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Matthew 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’
I would suggest that God most certainly does not seem to “desire ALL men to be saved” …
He truly does want all men to be saved but they derail His Plan using their own free wills just as Adam and Eve did. They must however pay the consequences of disobedience.
As to Judas, and his free-will, what does the Bible tell us about that?
Luke 22:3 Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve;
When the spirit of Satan enters into an individual does that individual still have free will?
Satan entered Judas because Judas was spiritually disposed to having this happen. He was not an innocent man chosen randomly to fulfill God’s plan. God tempts no man.(James 1:13)
Judas, I believe, was, like you and I are, an instrument of God, and God worked through Judas, the same way as God works through all of us.
God uses all things, good or bad, to work according to His purpose for our salvation because He truly desires that we be saved and He gives us every opportunity possible to be saved. (Romans 8:28) God never abuses our free will and He cannot and will not force us to sin because that is against His nature.
And, if this is the case, then who are we, to, in any way, question what has been put in place by God, and to import motives where God has informed us of none?
Do we really believe that, by those conjectures and importations of motives, we improve the Word of God"?!**
God’s motives are pure. He desires that we know Him, love Him, and serve Him all the days of our lives on earth so that we may be happy with Him in heaven for eternity after we die.
Peter, I believe also, was, likewise an instrument of God …
Peter used his own free will to repent and follow Christ. Jesus however prayed for him before Peter betrayed him. This intercession of prayer helped Peter to repent after his betrayal. (Luke 22:31-32, Matthew 26:4)
I enjoy our discussion, too.
Regarding: My understanding, from the Bible, is that God has put the path to a perfect life which will be rewarded by eternity with Him, before all men, but it is up to each individual if he wishes to follow it (“FOR MANY”).
I agree that we must choose to follow Jesus in imitation of His life in order to be saved. “For many” and “for all” are used interchangeably in the Bible sometimes. Why? I do not know.
Matthew 7:21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Matthew 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’
I would suggest that God most certainly does not seem to “desire ALL men to be saved” …
He truly does want all men to be saved but they derail His Plan using their own free wills just as Adam and Eve did. They must however pay the consequences of disobedience.
As to Judas, and his free-will, what does the Bible tell us about that?
Luke 22:3 Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve;
When the spirit of Satan enters into an individual does that individual still have free will?
Satan entered Judas because Judas was spiritually disposed to having this happen. He was not an innocent man chosen randomly to fulfill God’s plan. God tempts no man.(James 1:13)
Judas, I believe, was, like you and I are, an instrument of God, and God worked through Judas, the same way as God works through all of us.
God uses all things, good or bad, to work according to His purpose for our salvation because He truly desires that we be saved and He gives us every opportunity possible to be saved. (Romans 8:28) God never abuses our free will and He cannot and will not force us to sin because that is against His nature.
And, if this is the case, then who are we, to, in any way, question what has been put in place by God, and to import motives where God has informed us of none?
Do we really believe that, by those conjectures and importations of motives, we improve the Word of God"?!**
God’s motives are pure. He desires that we know Him, love Him, and serve Him all the days of our lives on earth so that we may be happy with Him in heaven for eternity after we die.
Peter, I believe also, was, likewise an instrument of God …
Peter used his own free will to repent and follow Christ. Jesus however prayed for him before Peter betrayed him. This intercession of prayer helped Peter to repent after his betrayal. (Luke 22:31-32, Matthew 26:4)
I enjoy our discussion, too.
W
Whdevo
Guest
Hi,
as I have stated elsewhere, I am of the opinion that, when the Bible does not tell us, it is because of the fact that God has decided that it is not something that is important for us to know in order to live a life worthy of Him…
Firstly, then, let me say that I did not say that God motivates “everyone”; I said “If we believe that God motivates all…”, and I still stand by my understanding that God motivates all …
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
Motivating “all”, then, I believe that God does, indeed, motivate everyone *and everything *… (I use “motivates” in its literal sense (i.e. “moves, or excites into action”), so, without God’s motivation, as the Creator of everything (and everyone), there would be nothing!).
We, I believe, are all “instruments of God” …
Romans 6:13 Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness.
N’est pas?
God, the Supreme Being, according to my understanding, being supreme, I would suggest, has no “desire” (“desire” being a human trait, and humans are hopelessly imperfect in comparison with God).
God, I believe, as the “motivating factor”, is not mutually exclusive with the premise of free will …
Finally, whilst I accept that “Our eternal destinies are not pre-decided by God”, I also believe that our eternal destinies are *pre-known *to God (which is an entirely different thing …)
God Bless
William
W
Whdevo
Guest
Hi,
since I started posting to this site, I have said that I onlyi wish to learn and, in learning, to understand myself, and God’s plan for me, better.
Your response has both “taught” me and, in some parts, enhanced my understasnding, and,for that, I thank you.
(I do not mean to moan, but, often, when I have posed what I consider to be “legitimate” premises
-again, looking only for understanding- these have been met with anything but “charitable response”, and often with responses which are “flippantly defensive” … .).
In regard to Judas’ “repentance”, I accept my error; I did not read the statement properly to which I replied (I did not notice that the question was in regard to whether Judas repented of his taking of his own life, but, rather, read it to be in regrad to whether he repented of having betrayed Jesus Christ)
In regard to my position that “God does not ‘desire’”, given your quotes from Scripture, I must concede that the Bible does state that God desieres …
With most of the body of your post, I agree, but I must disagree in your assertion that “for many” and “for all” are used “interchangeably” in the Bible …
I would, again, refer to the words of Jesus Christ at the Last Supper … (there are many reasons for my believing that it is actively “dangerous” for any Roman Catholic to accept “for all men” in this context, and these are referred to throughout the Scriptures, particularly in the New Testament and Revelation …) …
Jesus Christ unequivocally says “… for many”, and, I believe, the rest of the Scriptures (particularly the words of Jesus Christ Himself), equally unevuivocally, validate the premise of “for many” and not “for all”.
You say that we are tempted by our own “evil” desires and “evil” beings until the moment we die" …, but I wonder if we are being tempted as you describe …
I tend to look at it more as if we (imperfect beings)are “placed here” by God in order that we might learn how to be “perfect” and with Him.
To aid man in his quest for perfection, God, I believe, has given man His Word -His instuctions for achieving the perfection He desires.
But, rather than “evil”, I wonder if it is not that it is our imperfect understandings and strugglings to adhere to God’s teachings that, especially when, increasingly, society (and, often, even life itself) seem to tell us that they are “against our nature”, that provide the “temptations”.
(I have what, in my opinion, is a very individual way of looking at the situation of “evil”, and I outlined it,
in part in my earlier posting, of part of an essay I had written whilst at University (it’s about rain, worms, crows, and me … and, of course, the premise of “evil”).
I have great difficulty with the idea that God, being all good, is compatible with “evil” as we perceive it …
And it follows on from this that I agree that “God tempts no man”.
I believe that it is for man, firstly to discern, and then to dilligently and earnestly work, to fulfil, the requirements of God, and that it is man’s own imperfections which he terms “temptations”.
Jesus Christ was, I accept, “tempted” in the desert, but I note that it was with always with “physical things”, and I, therefore, see the Devil as having attempted to make the “offers” to the “man” part of “Jesus Christ” (and that, I take to be an example to man in that all the “treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal”, are not nearly comparable to everlasting life in God).
I am more than conscious of the fact that I have more questions than answers, but I just see that as a facet of:
Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out.
The Bible, I believe, is the “book” which contains, often “concealed”, the complete set of God’s instructions for perfection:
I merely “search things out” (and that is why I say I believe that I should “discern, and then to dilligently and earnestly work, to fulfil the requirements of God”).
Finally, I believe that I must “discern”, etc. for myself (although I also will take into account any other views …), because it is “for myself”, I believe, I shall have to answer on the Last Day.
With best wishes
God bless
William
O
OHIOWA
Guest
Do you realy think Judas had a choice in what happened? The guy is sitting there at the last supper when Jesus hands him the morsel and immediately the devil enters Judas…and the rest is history.He wasn’t; he always had the choice to believe and obey. Which makes the whole thing even sadder, I think.
I think Judas is the second most instrumental human being in our salvation. Think about it, it was fore told in scripture and that’s the way it played out.
Can we say “St. Judas Iscariot”?
JButcher
D
debraran
Guest
I always thought it was odd he told him to go…saying he was the betrayer was one thing, but saying to do it is confusing. I feel the devil entering him (as he had with others in those times) made him do things he wouldn’t have and when he left him, he was like “what did I do?” In John’s gospel they said:
Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, “I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me.”
His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant. One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him. Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, “Ask him which one he means.”
Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, “Lord, who is it?”
Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.
“What you are about to do, do quickly,” Jesus told him, but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor. As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.
I’m sorry, but if Jesus told me to do something, I’d probably do it. I would probably do it if the devil was provoking me also…who can know for sure.
When I talked to an old priest-friend of mine, he was showing me a picture of the last supper and pointing out the apostles. He noted that in many portraits Judas always got the evil look, the hand clutching the purse and the prominent “hook nose” which many Jews thought was anti-semetic. They never protrayed the others like that. He said that, along with other teachings, demonized him. When you think about it he said, no one really knows him or his heart…they judge by others assumptions and pictures that aren’t real and someones fancy.
He laughed when he told me people will argue how feminine John was, when they don’t know what he looked like. The artist never met any of them! Even Mary Magdeline’s red hair was someone’s inspiration, not fact although I’ve heard people say that. It’s funny how we so easily accept things like that without much thought.
Mother A said something to the effect that if we are so blessed, we will be surprised how many of the biblical characters actually looked and some might be quite miffed by their portrayal. (kidding of course) : )
Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, “I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me.”
His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant. One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him. Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, “Ask him which one he means.”
Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, “Lord, who is it?”
Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.
“What you are about to do, do quickly,” Jesus told him, but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor. As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.
I’m sorry, but if Jesus told me to do something, I’d probably do it. I would probably do it if the devil was provoking me also…who can know for sure.
When I talked to an old priest-friend of mine, he was showing me a picture of the last supper and pointing out the apostles. He noted that in many portraits Judas always got the evil look, the hand clutching the purse and the prominent “hook nose” which many Jews thought was anti-semetic. They never protrayed the others like that. He said that, along with other teachings, demonized him. When you think about it he said, no one really knows him or his heart…they judge by others assumptions and pictures that aren’t real and someones fancy.
He laughed when he told me people will argue how feminine John was, when they don’t know what he looked like. The artist never met any of them! Even Mary Magdeline’s red hair was someone’s inspiration, not fact although I’ve heard people say that. It’s funny how we so easily accept things like that without much thought.
Mother A said something to the effect that if we are so blessed, we will be surprised how many of the biblical characters actually looked and some might be quite miffed by their portrayal. (kidding of course) : )
J
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