Do you ever regret learning about the Mass?

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ConstantineTG said:
Highlight is mine. I encourage experiencing Eastern Liturgies for better appreciation and understanding the Catholic faith better, not for pitting East vs. West. Can you point where made any claim that Eastern Liturgies are better than the Roman Mass? Because I can’t recall ever making such claim.

Besides, denigrating the OF is also against the rules. I wonder why you don’t bring that up as often?
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You encourage your own opinion over anything else.

If I’ve denigrated the OF please let me know.

Creating ‘sock puppet’ accounts is against the rules, FYI.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I agree it is not. But whenever the East is brought out some people seem to have an allergic reaction to it. We should embrace the entirety of our faith and appreciate that the traditions are not in competition against one another, but complementary.
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Yeah, fine, but there’s no need to constantly harp on it.
ConstantineTG said:
But that is exactly what they mean. That in the EF most people sit and shut their mouth and follow along with their eyes in the Missal.
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And there’s a law that says a Byzantine or a Syriac or whatever has to bounce around and say or sing every single thing aloud under penalty of death? Trust me, it’s not so. Some do, some don’t. Some do on some days but not on other days. Same with the EF. The possibility is there for whomever know the chant and wishes to join in to do so.
ConstantineTG said:
From what I understand in the OF is that in fact we are returning to an older tradition which can be seen reflected from Eastern Liturgies which are older. But I can’t conclusively say that with what I know, I just read that claim but haven’t read any material about older forms of the Roman Mass.
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That business of “oh, it’s an older tradition” is merely the party line, and frankly I’m sick and tired of hearing it: it’s nothing but antiquarianism, which is itself a discredited position. Most of those much touted “older practices” fell out of use (or were forbidden) for a reason, and that is part of organic development.
 
Ockham said:
I’m willing to give it a try.
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My parish offers both Masses. The OF. people are not terrible friendly, but little by little they are joining us at our once monthly pot-luck. 🙂

The last OF. each Sunday, is just before the Latin Mass & people are leaving as I come. I make SURE that I don’t put my veil on until I’m in the vestibule. I think that they think veiling is ostentatious & overly pious, so I do what I can to keep the relationship between us as good as possible.
 
As long as we’re speaking about rules…

"This is the Traditional Catholicism forum. It is intended for the discussion of traditional Catholicism not the practices of the Church today. It is intended for traditional Catholics.

Non-traditional Catholics, Catholics of other rites, and non-Catholics are welcome to participate in the TC forum, however, they will not be allowed to dominate conversations or to push agendas which are not in keeping with the purpose of this forum.

Above all, civility and charity are to be observed at all times."
 
malphono said:
Yeah, fine, but there’s no need to constantly harp on it.

And there’s a law that says a Byzantine or a Syriac or whatever has to bounce around and say or sing every single thing aloud under penalty of death? Trust me, it’s not so. Some do, some don’t. Some do on some days but not on other days. Same with the EF. The possibility is there for whomever know the chant and wishes to join in to do so.
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My point is simple, congregational participation isn’t a bad thing and neither is it a modern innovation. I just want to give a concrete example. I can make the point without having to cite examples but isn’t it more credible that way?
malphono said:
That business of “oh, it’s an older tradition” is merely the party line, and frankly I’m sick and tired of hearing it: it’s nothing but antiquarianism, which is itself a discredited position. Most of those much touted “older practices” fell out of use (or were forbidden) for a reason, and that is part of organic development.
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Sorry if you missed the flow of the conversation, but some would object to congregational participation not for the reasons you mentioned but because its something they perceived to have been introduced only during V2. Thats why I mention antiquity in such participation. Its not that I put value in the antiquity, but just to counter the argument that what we see in the OF today is purely a modern innovation.
 
My point is simple, congregational participation isn’t a bad thing and neither is it a modern innovation. I just want to give a concrete example. I can make the point without having to cite examples but isn’t it more credible that way?
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My participation is the same, whether I’m in the EF or OF. And when I attend the Eastern Rite, I would imagine it’ll be the same. What people do around me is their business. But if they insist on distracting me, I’ll simply find another church.
 
ConstantineTG said:
My point is simple, congregational participation isn’t a bad thing and neither is it a modern innovation. I just want to give a concrete example. I can make the point without having to cite examples but isn’t it more credible that way?
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No, not when it amounts to belaboring the point. People here may or may not know what is done in the East, but the thread isn’t about showing examples from other traditions. The thread is of and for the Roman Church. One example would have been fine. It’s not a good idea to force-feed people.
ConstantineTG said:
Sorry if you missed the flow of the conversation, but some would object to congregational participation not for the reasons you mentioned but because its something they perceived to have been introduced only during V2. Thats why I mention antiquity in such participation. Its not that I put value in the antiquity, but just to counter the argument that what we see in the OF today is purely a modern innovation.
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Yeah, I know the drill. But anyway, if anyone objects to “congregational participation” for that reason, you’re not going to win them over by brow-beating them. And I have to say, in any case, the argument for “congregational participation” is severely overused. The post-conciliar ideal of “congregational participation” is not, in and of itself, the greatest thing known to mankind.
 
Outer congregational participation in the N.O. is currently banal and distracting. It gives the idea that the congregation’s activity is essential to the Mass. I have the idea the old rite arrived at its 1924 form partly because it was what worked. Time whittled away bad ideas.

One idea that constantly recurs to me is that this generation, in religion and morals, is not as smart as it thinks it is and our forebears were not the stuffy ignoramuses we think they were.

If, as visionaries tell us, the denizens of Heaven are present in the sanctuary during the Mass then solemnity, humility, beauty and reserve should dominate. Not everybody-in-the-sanctuary-for-a-photo.
 
malphono said:
No, not when it amounts to belaboring the point. People here may or may not know what is done in the East, but the thread isn’t about showing examples from other traditions. The thread is of and for the Roman Church. One example would have been fine. It’s not a good idea to force-feed people.

Yeah, I know the drill. But anyway, if anyone objects to “congregational participation” for that reason, you’re not going to win them over by brow-beating them. And I have to say, in any case, the argument for “congregational participation” is severely overused. The post-conciliar ideal of “congregational participation” is not, in and of itself, the greatest thing known to mankind.
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I hear ya. But I don’t know why its being used as an argument against the OF. I always appreciated the diversity in Liturgy because as humans we have many limitations. We have something that caters to our limitations given the choices that we have and we can truly worhsip and praise God in a way we feel fit. I understand people here are nourished by the EF, and its good. People too are nourished by the OF. Maybe its not for them, but that shouldn’t mean there should be disparaging remarks against it. That is why I want to encourage experiencing different Liturgies in different rights. I believe it will help people appreciate the diversity of our faith and know that the OF and EF are not to competing uses of the Roman Mass, but two complementary forms which cater to different people in the same Church in the same faith.
 
Layman said:
Outer congregational participation in the N.O. is currently banal and distracting. It gives the idea that the congregation’s activity is essential to the Mass. I have the idea the old rite arrived at its 1924 form partly because it was what worked. Time whittled away bad ideas.

One idea that constantly recurs to me is that this generation, in religion and morals, is not as smart as it thinks it is and our forebears were not the stuffy ignoramuses we think they were.

If, as visionaries tell us, the denizens of Heaven are present in the sanctuary during the Mass then solemnity, humility, beauty and reserve should dominate. Not everybody-in-the-sanctuary-for-a-photo.
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Banal and distracting would be subject to one’s tastes. But instead of calling for its removal, why not call for its improvement?
 
ConstantineTG said:
Banal and distracting would be subject to one’s tastes. But instead of calling for its removal, why not call for its improvement?
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This is a variation on the “That’s just your opinion” retort. We can do better than ‘Bind Us Together’, albs ‘n’ sneakers, birthday wishes and 4 EMHCs for a congregation of 150.
 
Layman said:
This is a variation on the “That’s just your opinion” retort. We can do better than ‘Bind Us Together’, albs ‘n’ sneakers, birthday wishes and 4 EMHCs for a congregation of 150.
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But music really is subjet to one’s tastes, there’s really no other way to put it. I find that there are worthy modern music to be included in Mass and there are music that is just a novelty and should be excluded. Don’t think I don’t appreciate good chants in Mass, I do. But many do acknowledge that some modern music do have a worthy place in Mass.
 
ConstantineTG said:
People too are nourished by the OF. Maybe its not for them, but that shouldn’t mean there should be disparaging remarks against it. That is why I want to encourage experiencing different Liturgies in different rights. I believe it will help people appreciate the diversity of our faith and know that the OF and EF are not to competing uses of the Roman Mass, but two complementary forms which cater to different people in the same Church in the same faith.
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I’ve no idea how forcing Byzantine (or any other Eastern or Oriental) practice on someone who doesn’t prefer the OF is going to change their mind and make them all of sudden think the OF is the best thing since sliced bread. Doesn’t work for me, and I’m a “cradle” Oriental. Frankly, experiencing Eastern or Oriental liturgies generally seems to make people (i.e. Latins) more interested in, and appreciative of, the EF.
 
malphono said:
I’ve no idea how forcing Byzantine (or any other Eastern or Oriental) practice on someone who doesn’t prefer the OF is going to change their mind and make them all of sudden think the OF is the best thing since sliced bread. Doesn’t work for me, and I’m a “cradle” Oriental. Frankly, experiencing Eastern or Oriental liturgies generally seems to make people (i.e. Latins) more interested in, and appreciative of, the EF.
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Knowing that there’s something more out there than just the OF and EF will make people realize that diversity in liturgy is present in our Church and in our faith. They don’t have to like the OF afterward, but respect it and those who adhere to it. I think some of the problem is that people think there’s only one way to worship God. So appreciation in the diversity of liturgy can help change and correct that impression. Also because of the awareness and appreciation of many different forms of liturgy will help in the realiziation that the OF and EF are not competing forms, that one is or should replace the other. And that both can co-exist and help grow the faith of many.
 
Layman said:
This is a variation on the “That’s just your opinion” retort. We can do better than ‘Bind Us Together’, albs ‘n’ sneakers, birthday wishes and 4 EMHCs for a congregation of 150.
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I’m not personally familiar with it, but I gather that “Bind Us Together” is supposed to be some sort of religious song. From the title, one could think it sounds like a lament for folks who had far too much rice and yams at one meal. :eek:
 
ConstantineTG said:
Knowing that there’s something more out there than just the OF and EF will make people realize that diversity in liturgy is present in our Church and in our faith. They don’t have to like the OF afterward, but respect it and those who adhere to it. I think some of the problem is that people think there’s only one way to worship God. So appreciation in the diversity of liturgy can help change and correct that impression. Also because of the awareness and appreciation of many different forms of liturgy will help in the realiziation that the OF and EF are not competing forms, that one is or should replace the other. And that both can co-exist and help grow the faith of many.
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Oy. I hate repeating myself but … experiencing Eastern or Oriental liturgies generally seems to make people (i.e. Latins) more interested in, and appreciative of, the EF.
 
malphono said:
Oy. I hate repeating myself but … experiencing Eastern or Oriental liturgies generally seems to make people (i.e. Latins) more interested in, and appreciative of, the EF.
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Its not interest that I’m hoping to spark, but appreciation and respect. Seeing that liturgy is only OF or EF limits the viewpoint of many. Appreciating that the OF is as complementary to the faith as Divine Liturgy or Holy Qurbana is helps ease the negative feelings towards a form of Mass that was never intended to compete with other forms of Liturgy.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Knowing that there’s something more out there than just the OF and EF will make people realize that diversity in liturgy is present in our Church and in our faith.
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Don’t quite understand the point but couldn’t this diversity have been realized prior to Vatican II?
 
Layman said:
If, as visionaries tell us, the denizens of Heaven are present in the sanctuary during the Mass then solemnity, humility, beauty and reserve should dominate. Not everybody-in-the-sanctuary-for-a-photo.
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No group photos in the sanctuary?! :eek:

But then how will traditionalists be able to commemorate their TLMs?

http://canons-regular.org/uploads/images/fr-miguel-5.jpg

http://www.institute-christ-king.org/uploads/oakland/images/group photo - Father & servers.jpg

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