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wcknight
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yes, all we really need to worry about is ourselves… if we are let in, everything else is gravy.
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Kevin42
Guest
We certainly need to worry about others, and evangelizing and bringing others to the faith though. Perhaps not in the matter of judging them, but in many other matters, we do need to worry about others.
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wcknight
Guest
Well, we certainly need care about others and pray for others. BUT if we neglect ourselves, where are we ???We certainly need to worry about others, and evangelizing and bringing others to the faith though. Perhaps not in the matter of judging them, but in many other matters, we do need to worry about others.
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asquared
Guest
help them in every way you can by your example, your prayers, your exhortations, because admonishing the sinner and counselling the doubtful are works of mercy, but do not waste time worryin about their fate. Worry and anguish will not help them. You can pray for God’s grace for them, and pray that they will be receptive to God’s grace, but you cannot make them accept it. Why blame a loving God for the choices of an unloving creature?
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Kevin42
Guest
True. We cannot share the truth if we don’t have the truth, and we can’t love if we don’t have God’s love. So as long as we have the beam removed from our eyes, then we can worry about the splinters in others I suppose
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Caesar
Guest
Few non-Catholics today can claim ignorance of the faith. Its simple. If you make a conscious decision not to follow the Catholic faith, you go to hell. Same with the fallen away Catholics. It is not a thought any of us like, but unfortunately its true. The relativistic view “as long as your good you go heaven” is not true at all. If it were true, then the Catholic faith would serve no purpose.Do you really believe all non-Catholics are going to hell? And even those Catholics that aren’t “faithful, practicing Catholics”…???
I’m curious…
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Kevin42
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I think it’s fair to say that many can claim ignorance of the faith. Catholics themselves who are poorly catechized could be ignorant of the faith. Imagine how much moreso a non-Catholic could be ignorant of what they are truly denying. If someone has been raised in, let’s say, a Baptist household, and they only hear numerous things about Catholics, it is highly unlikely that they would know what exactly they are denying by choosing to remain Baptist.
It’s not as simple as “I decide not to be Catholic, therefore, I go to hell.” Many Catholics don’t even know all that Catholicism is, so many many non-Catholics may not know. If you don’t know what you are denying, then you are ignorant.
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Catholig
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Caeser,Many Catholics today do not believe in Hell. Even many believing Catholics tend to steer clear of the topic. I do believe in the existence of Hell, and I see clearly the works of Satan upon this earth.
Have you ever thought about just how many people will go to hell- people that you know, family members, friends? The sheer numbers.
There are around 1.2 billion Catholics in the world. I cant say how many are faithful or who will die in a state of Grace. But think of that- if the world was to end this second, how many people in the world right now would go to Hell. And that doesnt even count the numbers in the past.
I once tried to imagine Hell., the unimaginable. Horror, pain, death for all eternity (all time, can you even imagine that,eternity?) I scared myself just thinking of it.
I cant help but feel some amount of anguish for all the souls who will go to Hell. Maybe even me. How can our culture toss this thought aside and make grave sin a fact of life? I cannot even begin to think…
I believe in Hell, but can’t really imagine it.
As for thinking about “just how many people will go to hell” I do that to. I consider what if one of my family members go to hell, what if I go to hell, is gandi or buddha in hell, etc etc, and simply at the end I try to remember that god is a just judge.
Catholig
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Catholig
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Caeser, I don’t exactly agree with the view that that non-Catholic christians go to hell, because many of them have a great devotion to our lord, Jesus Christ, which must count for something. And in a way it is impossible to state that they have no excuse for not joining the Church (i.e. “ignorance of the faith”), because quite simply they are ignorant of the faith, and it isn’t necessarily their fault. You need to consider for instance that they have been taught from childhood that the Church is wrong (which makes them unwilling to search for her truth and beauty). They are raised in an environment, and a faith, that leads to ignorance of the one True Faith. And their families were also raised in that same faith, so it is really difficult to find who is to blame (if indeed you are searching to blame). Again, I’m not saying that they have the whole truth, but to say that they have no reason for their ignorance and are turning their backs to the Church is misguided. In fact, I’m pretty sure that even the Church doesn’t believe in extra ecclesiam non est salus anymore.
Simply put, too me, you sound a bit to judgemental. Evangelizing them is fine, and necessary, but those who don’t join the Church aren’t entirely responsible.
Catholig
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puzzleannie
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Caesar is not referring to those who are ignorant of the true faith through no fault of their own, he is referring to those who do know, have accepted, after full understanding, and yet still choose apostasy, knowing full well the penalty for recanting their faith. He is quite right and it is a failure of all those with responsibility for their pastoral care to teach otherwise.
However I question whether worrying about such people, especially one’s own family members does any good. Worry is a wasted useless emotion because it assumes we have some power over the situation through our own emotional reaction. A better tactic is exhortation and teaching by word and example. Search and Rescue by Patrick Madrid is the best guide to our approach.
However I question whether worrying about such people, especially one’s own family members does any good. Worry is a wasted useless emotion because it assumes we have some power over the situation through our own emotional reaction. A better tactic is exhortation and teaching by word and example. Search and Rescue by Patrick Madrid is the best guide to our approach.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
No, it’s not that simple.
They may be “aware” of the Catholic faith… but they do not “KNOW” the faith. In fact… many active, participating Catholics don’t even “KNOW” the faith.
How can you claim to know the general population’s “knowledge” of the faith?
True… IF someone were totally confronted with the ENTIRE truth, AND understood it… AND THEN rejected it… then yes, they would be the ones who didn’t want any part of God.
But the general population’s intelligence level isn’t even close to being able to comprehend the magesty of God. And if they can’t totally comprehend the ENTIRE truth, then then can’t actively CHOOSE to REJECT the ENTIRE truth.
Little children don’t understand the ENTIRE truth… yet, Christ said “let the children come to me”…
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wcknight
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It sounds a bit contradictory. Someone who “knows” the RCC is the true Church would most likely convert. It does not make sense for someone who knows the RCC is the true Church to stay in some other faith.
Personally I think and I hope and pray there are many many non-Catholics in Heaven (and/or Purgatory).
Our Lady tells us that the majority of folks go to Purgatory. Catholics do not in fact make up more than one half of the worlds population (I think we are around one fourth to one third, if that) so mathematically, there has to be a lot of non-Catholics making it to Purgatory as well.
Sadly the second most go to Hell, so there are far too many souls lost forever. The good from every faith are mostly like the ones who make it to Heaven or Purgatory. It would be non-sensical for God to punish the good merely because they could not accept Catholicism as the one true religion, especially if they were raised and taught otherwise.
The single factor that gives Catholics a far better chance to avoid damnation are the sacraments. Baptism and Penance and Final Rites, washes away any sins that we may have committed, and Holy Eucharist assures us of eternal life.
Absent the sacraments of forgiveness the non-Catholic is at a distinct disadvantage. IF he leads a life of dishonesty, debauchery, theivery, or he merely chooses to ignore the poor, he/she has no alternative but to face judgement without benefit of foregiveness. As Jesus said, He came to save sinners, the good do not need saving.
While becoming Catholic, the Church can help the good avoid Purgatory altogether, BUT it is the serious sinner who can gain the most from becoming Catholic. The chance to turn away from a life of serious sin and to be totally forgiven is the pearl of great price that the Catholic Church offers.
Personally I think and I hope and pray there are many many non-Catholics in Heaven (and/or Purgatory).
Our Lady tells us that the majority of folks go to Purgatory. Catholics do not in fact make up more than one half of the worlds population (I think we are around one fourth to one third, if that) so mathematically, there has to be a lot of non-Catholics making it to Purgatory as well.
Sadly the second most go to Hell, so there are far too many souls lost forever. The good from every faith are mostly like the ones who make it to Heaven or Purgatory. It would be non-sensical for God to punish the good merely because they could not accept Catholicism as the one true religion, especially if they were raised and taught otherwise.
The single factor that gives Catholics a far better chance to avoid damnation are the sacraments. Baptism and Penance and Final Rites, washes away any sins that we may have committed, and Holy Eucharist assures us of eternal life.
Absent the sacraments of forgiveness the non-Catholic is at a distinct disadvantage. IF he leads a life of dishonesty, debauchery, theivery, or he merely chooses to ignore the poor, he/she has no alternative but to face judgement without benefit of foregiveness. As Jesus said, He came to save sinners, the good do not need saving.
While becoming Catholic, the Church can help the good avoid Purgatory altogether, BUT it is the serious sinner who can gain the most from becoming Catholic. The chance to turn away from a life of serious sin and to be totally forgiven is the pearl of great price that the Catholic Church offers.
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JimO
Guest
Well, I don’t agree with this statement. You’d be surprised how many Orthodox Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and secular Chinese have never even heard of Jesus, or even if they did, they have no clue regarding the Gospel message. I think that true invincible ignorance would apply much more widely that you might think. Even Protestants who don’t understand the teachings of the Church would qualify and, maybe much to their chagrine
, will find that they were saved through the Church without even knowing it.My greatest concern is for the millions in the west who grew up in some sort of Christian Church and have rejected the Gospel. A well-formed Catholic who is living in mortal sin is in far more danger than any other person.
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Polish
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I think we should pray for EVERYONE - no matter what their religious belief, what their views on Christ or His Church may be, whatever sins they may have committed. Christ has asked us to pray for our enemies. Remember He said that even pagans are good to their own friends.
Saint Basil the Great wrote:
Remember O Lord, the people I pray for. Have mercy on them and on me according to the multitude of Thy mercies. Fill their treasuries with every good thing. Preserve their marriages in peace and harmony. Raise the infants. Instruct the young. Support the aged. Comfort the fainthearted. Gather those who have been scattered. Bring back those who are in error and unite them to Thy holy, catholic and apostolic Church. Free those who are troubled by unclean spirits. Sail with those who sail. Travel with those who travel by land and by air. Defend the widows. Protect the orphans. Free the capitves. Heal the sick in body and in mind. Those who are before the courts, in mines, in exile, in harsh labor, and those in any kind of affliction, constraint or distress, remember O God, with all those in need of They great loving kindness. Those who love me and those who hate me. Those who have asked me to pray for the, unworthy though I be. And remember all Thy people, O Lord our God, and upon them all, pour out They rich mercy, granting them those petitions which are for their salvation. Do Thyself O God, remember those whom I have not remembered through ignorance, forgetfulness, or of the multitude of names, since Thou knows the name and age of each even from his mother’s womb. Be all things unto all, O Thou who knows each, his request, his home and his need. Deliver our country O Lord and every city and town from famine, plague, earthquake, hurricane, flood, fire, and invasion by enemies.
Saint Basil the Great wrote:
Remember O Lord, the people I pray for. Have mercy on them and on me according to the multitude of Thy mercies. Fill their treasuries with every good thing. Preserve their marriages in peace and harmony. Raise the infants. Instruct the young. Support the aged. Comfort the fainthearted. Gather those who have been scattered. Bring back those who are in error and unite them to Thy holy, catholic and apostolic Church. Free those who are troubled by unclean spirits. Sail with those who sail. Travel with those who travel by land and by air. Defend the widows. Protect the orphans. Free the capitves. Heal the sick in body and in mind. Those who are before the courts, in mines, in exile, in harsh labor, and those in any kind of affliction, constraint or distress, remember O God, with all those in need of They great loving kindness. Those who love me and those who hate me. Those who have asked me to pray for the, unworthy though I be. And remember all Thy people, O Lord our God, and upon them all, pour out They rich mercy, granting them those petitions which are for their salvation. Do Thyself O God, remember those whom I have not remembered through ignorance, forgetfulness, or of the multitude of names, since Thou knows the name and age of each even from his mother’s womb. Be all things unto all, O Thou who knows each, his request, his home and his need. Deliver our country O Lord and every city and town from famine, plague, earthquake, hurricane, flood, fire, and invasion by enemies.
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bscastro
Guest
I’ve read the first 15 posts in this thread, and here are a few thoughts:
God bless,
Bryan
- I don’t think about Hell too much (it’s not a fun thought), but every once in a while, I am reminded (usually during an examination of conscience) of Hell’s existence. It is a sad thought, and it motivates my prayers for the conversion of souls and for my own daily efforts to serve God.
- I agree with another poster in that my focus is on my love for God and others. Again, I think a healthy reminder of the existence of Hell is a good thing for all of us because we are all sinners.
- I try not to conjecture whether individuals or groups (even if they say they are atheists for example) go to hell. We do not know what is going on in their hearts and they may have a conversion even at the moment of death. I just keep praying!
- I have discussed the existence of Hell as a motivator to people. Not as a threat, but as a point that people intellectually will need to reckon themselves with this fact. For example, relatives of mine who are somewhat lukewarm in their faith. I’ll ask them if they believe there’s a Heaven and a Hell. When they discuss something like “I’m a good person, so I’m not worried” I’ll remind them that that’s not exactly what the Church teaches. So in a way, I’m trying to get them off the fence, hopefully on the right side. I try to be gentle and charitable in these exchanges, but it has sparked some interesting conversation.
God bless,
Bryan
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wcknight
Guest
That is quite a prayer, and I agree it would help if we do prayer for everyone, especially those who could potentially be damned.
While this is apparently a noble deed to pray for everyone. This brings up an interesting question. Some folks in history have notorius reputations, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, mass murderers, serial killers etc, etc some folks clearly led lives that were especially evil. While no can say for certain if any of these repented before their demise, how does one include such folks in their prayer list ?
I can’t recall anyone ever advocating prayers for folks who committed truly wicked and evil deeds on a mass scale.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
There are certainly people who pray for the wicked and evil…
For example… say a mass murderer were to be excuted… I guarantee you’d find a strong group of people praying for his soul outside the prison gates…
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Joysong
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I’m remembering the example of St. Therese who was very moved to pray for Pranzini who was condemned to death for horrible crimes.
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Augustine
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Yes, she does. Just read Dominum Iesus in case of doubt.
In fact, there is indeed no salvation outside the Church. No other religion offers it, Christian or not. And the Church is the only one which offers it because only its head can offer it, its founder Jesus Christ.
Now, this is not the same as only Catholics or Christians can be saved…
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wcknight
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Anyone going to H*** is tragic, and from all indications a large number of folks do end up condemned. Would it not be more appropriate to pray for folks who are a little less deserving of Hell than truly wicked mass killers or meglomaniacs ?
Afterall would it not be a gross miscarriage of justice for Hitler or Stalin to make it to Heaven, while some poor smuck rots for all eternity for missing mass constantly or being a lapsed Catholic.
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