Do you ever wonder about St Faustina?

[StMartin_67]

Yes I know the theological definition of moral and absolute certainly - start a separate thread if you wish to discuss it. I dont.

Oh, I don’t wish to discuss it, just apply it when appropriate; I was only suggesting that you seemed to have forgotten it the way you worded your post:

BarbaraTherese:

No one can know whether a soul has died in mortal sin or not - it is absolutely impossible as assured knowledge.

We needn’t always have absolute certainty to have certainty.

 

[bilop]

Being placed on the Index of forbidden Books was a very serious censure for a particular book. The Index was reserved for books containing either immoral or heretical content. Since there was obviously no immoral content in the diary, there must have been some serious theological error; otherwise it would not have been placed on the Index of Forbidden Books.

It appears that the diary was considered suspect (and therefore suppressed) under Pope Pius XII. This suppression was not only upheld by Pope John XXIII, but was also placed on the Index of Forbidden Books under Bl. Pope John XXIII.

If you doubt the seriousness of being placed on the Index, read the excerpt from Catholic Encyclopedia on the subject:

newadvent.org/cathen/07721a.htm

Isn’t it quite clear?

The officials in the vatican didn’t read Polish. They got a hold of a bad translation into Italian. The bad translation contained serious theological error, so the book was put on the Index.

Later, they get a good translation. The theological error is discovered to be an artificat of the translation, and not found in the original Polish. Therefore they remove the book from the Index, and Sr. Faustina is free to be canonized.

It’s not rocket science.

God Bless

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Oh, I don’t wish to discuss it, just apply it when appropriate; I was only suggesting that you seemed to have forgotten it the way you worded your post:

Originally Posted by BarbaraTherese

Assured knowledge is simply another expression meaning “absolute certainty” as is quite obvious and we can never have assured or absolute certainty that a soul has died in mortal sin and is eternally damned. Only God can ever have “absolute certainty” as theologically defined in moral theology within the context of the subject above. “Certitude” or “certainty” in moral theology is almost endlessly qualified by one matter or another in moral theology and philosophy.
newadvent.org/cathen/03539b.htm

Over and above all that, could God gift to a person complete and lasting Peace on the question of the salvation of a loved one and the answer is that of course He can. Is this “absolute certainty” as defined in moral theology - no it is not.

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[StMartin_67]

BarbaraTherese:

Assured knowledge is simply another expression meaning “absolute certainty” as is quite obvious and we can never have assured or absolute certainty that a soul has died in mortal sin and is eternally damned.

No, but we can have moral certainty; that was my point. We don’t need absolute certainty. You were suggesting that because we can NEVER know someone is damned with ABSOLUTE certainty, we can’t know with any degree of certainty. You are implicitly saying we must assume that all are saved.

 

[StMartin_67]

Isn’t it quite clear?

The officials in the vatican didn’t read Polish. They got a hold of a bad translation into Italian. The bad translation contained serious theological error, so the book was put on the Index.

Do you know this? I believe they examined the original documents in the 1940’s and supressed it then. Bl. Pope John XXIII then upheld this and put it on the Index.

Later, they get a good translation. The theological error is discovered to be an artificat of the translation, and not found in the original Polish. Therefore they remove the book from the Index, and Sr. Faustina is free to be canonized.

It’s not rocket science.

What was the theological error?

 

[bilop]

Do you know this? I believe they examined the original documents in the 1940’s and supressed it then. Bl. Pope John XXIII then upheld this and put it on the Index.

What was the theological error?

None of us know the details. But, it’s time for Okham’s razor, the simplest explanation is usually correct.

She was Canonized, so all her writings were examined in detail. They can not contain immorality or theological error, otherwise she wouldn’t have been canonized.

Therefore a translation issue, confounded by the difficulty of communication with Poland during WWII/Cold War would make the most sense.

God Bless

 

[StMartin_67]

None of us know the details. But, it’s time for Okham’s razor, the simplest explanation is usually correct.

She was Canonized, so all her writings were examined in detail. They can not contain immorality or theological error, otherwise she wouldn’t have been canonized.

Therefore a translation issue, confounded by the difficulty of communication with Poland during WWII/Cold War would make the most sense.

God Bless

Faustina wrote that God told her that His greatest attribute was mercy.

This is a very grave theological error and heretical. That’s why the supression was upheld and why it was placed on the Index.

There are other very odd things about the diary as well; like the way Our Lord said things about her which He never said to anybody else, such as how wonderful Sr. Faustina was. To St. Margaret Mary He said that she was nothing and that was why He chose her; to Sr. Faustina He said she was wonderful, lovely, delightful, and that was why he chose her.

Of course, we have her own word for this divine praise directed at her, but you know that already, don’t you? Or maybe not, have you read the Diary?

 

[bilop]

Faustina wrote that God told her that His greatest attribute was mercy.

This is a very grave theological error and heretical. That’s why the supression was upheld and why it was placed on the Index.

How is that heretical? It sounds pretty reasonable. The fact that any miserable sinners like us are allowed into Heaven shows God is really, really merciful. “Greatest” can also have many meanings.

No, I’ve never read the diary, never felt a need to.

God Bless

 

[BarbaraTherese]

No, but we can have moral certainty; that was my point. We don’t need absolute certainty. You were suggesting that because we can NEVER know someone is damned with ABSOLUTE certainty, we can’t know with any degree of certainty. You are implicitly saying we must assume that all are saved.

No, I am not saying that we must anything - nor did I mean to imply such. I just cant be bothered frankly going back over posts which I am tired of doing to respond to your (to me) ‘non-points’. I am saying that I certainly hope that all will be saved and I have a right to do this and continue to hope thus since God indeed can do all things and His Mercy is without end. I think that if a person actuallly realized what they were doing in committing mortal sin, no mortal sin would ever be committed. This is our problem: “Father, forgive them,* FOR THE KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO*”
We may have objective knowledge that a person has died after living a morally wrong life…or to outward appearances a morally wrong life (this, I think is that exterior indicators you refer to). Book of Samuel: “Man judges appearances, but The Lord knows the heart”. In other words, we should not be judging at all as both Christ and The Church tell us, simply because it is absolutely impossible. Even if we have moral certainty, we still cannot judge simply because it remains impossible.

If a person dies after a morally wrong life, then we may fear for their salvation and we can pray for them. And in the midst of that fear, could God grant the fearful person Peace and complete Peace re the salvation of that soul, of course He could because God can do all things “I am Lord of The Sabbath”. Would I be morally wrong in accepting with gratitude and a grateful heart that gift of Peace re the salvation of another - no I would not. Would this mean that I need no longer pray for that soul - no it would not since we should always pray for the souls of the departed, for the souls in Purgatory who are saved anyway. Can I ever presume to know for sure that a soul is in Hell - no I cannot.

This is what Joysong shared with us:

One night in prayer, I was asking God whether his death on Oct. 13th had anything to do with the last Fatima vision on that date. In a moment of infused knowledge, I received this: “Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for US sinners, now and at the hour of OUR death.”

Although I have prayed the Hail Mary all my long life, I never fully grasped the great significance of these words, to realize that the universal church in praying this, asks Mary to pray for ALL sinners at the hour of death, not just ourselves. I believe she does, and this prayer has been my joy and comfort to realize the Mother of God is Mother of us all and intercedes powerfully at that moment so that the desire of her Son, that none will be lost, can be realized.

There is no absolute certainly (as defined in moral theology) expressed by Joysong. She received insight into The Hail Mary and a completely valid one in that it does not contradict what The Church teaches which is (in part) that God can indeed do all things - nothing is impossible to Him.

I agree with Carole (Joysong) that you are just determined to find fault, SM, somewhere and anywhere and up to this point, wrongly so. You are simply incorrect and keep twisting words etc. trying to be correct at the expense of what others and myself included are saying. I am sorry to have to say that, very much so - but that is my conclusion and as things do appear to me.

Moral and absolute certitude are defined in moral theology and are not in the terms of this thread, I would like to remind, which is on the subject of St. Faustina and her diaries.
If you wish to discuss moral and absolute certainty, go to
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4455513#post4455513
…I have started a thread on the subject in Apologetics for you.

Barb

 

[StMartin_67]

How is that heretical? It sounds pretty reasonable. The fact that any miserable sinners like us are allowed into Heaven shows God is really, really merciful. “Greatest” can also have many meanings.

Anyone with any amount of theological knowledge would recognize and reject the formula (God’s greatest attribute is His mercy) as unsound. God “is” His attributes. He does not “have” attributes. This is because God is perfectly simple, not complex, not made of parts. Everything which can be predicated of Him is Him. There are therefore no “greater” and “lesser” attributes of God. He just IS, in all of His infinite perfections.

This is not easy for a created intellect to grasp, but what is easy is to avoid the kind of unsound statements made by Sr. Faustina. And she claimed that she got this untrue claim from God Himself!

If Sr. Faustina had said that to us God’s mercy is greater, or that His greatest work is His mercy, or some other such expression which referred to mercy as it is “out of” God, then no problem. The problem arose precisely because she chose to refer to God’s “attributes.” Attributes are qualities as they exist in the being. This is obvious even in everyday speech - we speak of what a man does, and this is different from his attributes. The latter are the things that he actually is.

To answer other objections, metaphorical language about God (e.g. God’s “anger” “repentance” etc.) is one thing. It is another thing entirely to employ technical language inaccurately. And remember, she is supposed to be reporting what God said to her anyway, so it is God who made this mistake, if we are to believe her.

No, I’ve never read the diary, never felt a need to.

You can then verify for yourself what I have said here, that’s all.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Isn’t it quite clear?

The officials in the vatican didn’t read Polish. They got a hold of a bad translation into Italian. The bad translation contained serious theological error, so the book was put on the Index.

Later, they get a good translation. The theological error is discovered to be an artificat of the translation, and not found in the original Polish. Therefore they remove the book from the Index, and Sr. Faustina is free to be canonized.

It’s not rocket science.

God Bless

No, for sure it is not rocket science. The thought did occur to me thought that for some it just may be rocket science and it appears perhaps it is.

Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Faustina wrote that God told her that His greatest attribute was mercy.

This is a very grave theological error and heretical. That’s why the supression was upheld and why it was placed on the Index.

There are other very odd things about the diary as well; like the way Our Lord said things about her which He never said to anybody else, such as how wonderful Sr. Faustina was. To St. Margaret Mary He said that she was nothing and that was why He chose her; to Sr. Faustina He said she was wonderful, lovely, delightful, and that was why he chose her.

Of course, we have her own word for this divine praise directed at her, but you know that already, don’t you? Or maybe not, have you read the Diary?

You may be correct in the above, and you may be not. Impossible to know since you do not give references for your statements above nor links, and thus it can be assumed it is all merely your opinions expressed. And if you are correct in the above - no way of knowing, perhpas it all comes from the intital incorrect translation.

Not rocket science!

However, if you continue to insist that there is something theologically incorrect with the Diaries of St. Faustina you are in contention with what Rome has to say and speaking against that.
In other words, choosing what you want to believe, rather than what Rome has declared. Of course, you are free to do this if you wish.

.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting StMartin:

Especially when examining books of Catholic authors of merit, they were to allow them free circulation, if at all possible, in a spirit of fairness and leniency. In no case was the book of a Catholic author to be condemned on the strength of the verdict of one revisor, not even when all the consultors agreed with him. Together with the report of the first revisor — who remained anonymous — the book was given to another for a second revision, and only when the second revisor’s verdict was in agreement with that of the first were both reports referred to the cardinals for final decision. If, however, the second revisor thought that the book ought not to be prohibited, a third would examine both verdicts as well as the book itself, but without knowing the names of the other revisors. If the opinion of the third coincided with that of the first and with the general vote of the consultors, the case could be passed on to the cardinals. Otherwise the consultors were again to give their votes, whereupon the matter would be put before the cardinals for final decision.

Goodness me!..the Diaries of St. Faustina are now theologically approved by Rome with Imprimatur and recommendation by The Holy Father who speaks very highly of Faustina and the diaries…see previous Posts.

All your above comments have nothing to do with the diaries as they now stand with the amended translation in accord with what St. Faustina actually did write.
Are you really this dense! I just cannot believe that you are!

.

 

[bilop]

Anyone with any amount of theological knowledge would recognize and reject the formula (God’s greatest attribute is His mercy) as unsound. God “is” His attributes. He does not “have” attributes. This is because God is perfectly simple, not complex, not made of parts. Everything which can be predicated of Him is Him. There are therefore no “greater” and “lesser” attributes of God. He just IS, in all of His infinite perfections.

This is not easy for a created intellect to grasp, but what is easy is to avoid the kind of unsound statements made by Sr. Faustina. And she claimed that she got this untrue claim from God Himself!

If Sr. Faustina had said that to us God’s mercy is greater, or that His greatest work is His mercy, or some other such expression which referred to mercy as it is “out of” God, then no problem. The problem arose precisely because she chose to refer to God’s “attributes.” Attributes are qualities as they exist in the being. This is obvious even in everyday speech - we speak of what a man does, and this is different from his attributes. The latter are the things that he actually is.

To answer other objections, metaphorical language about God (e.g. God’s “anger” “repentance” etc.) is one thing. It is another thing entirely to employ technical language inaccurately. And remember, she is supposed to be reporting what God said to her anyway, so it is God who made this mistake, if we are to believe her.

You can then verify for yourself what I have said here, that’s all.

Are you sure it’s the same word attribute in Polish?

Are you sure she didn’t misunderstand? I’m pretty sure God didn’t dictate the diary to her. It’s not even an inspired document.

Her visions impressed on her that Mercy was the overwhelming feature of God. Whether she used the exactly correct theological words to express that is irrelevent.

This was a simple Nun recounting her visions, not a theologian versed in metaphysics

She’s been canonized, Rome Locuta Est, Causa Finita Est.

Please find something else to worry about.

God Bless

 

[Joysong]

Faustina wrote that God told her that His greatest attribute was mercy.

This is a very grave theological error and heretical. That’s why the supression was upheld and why it was placed on the Index.

Well, finally we see your true colors, StMartin, as if none of us could see the underlying motive in your posts. This answer is found in Catholic Answers “This Rock” by CAF Apologist, Michelle Arnold:

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0702qq.asp
Q: Why did the Church ban the Divine Mercy devotion from 1959 to 1978?

A: Because of faulty translations from the original Polish, St. Faustina Kowalska’s writings were considered doctrinally suspect, and so the Holy See suppressed the Divine Mercy devotion arising from those writings for about twenty years. Once the translations were corrected, the ban was lifted. The reversal of the suppression depended heavily upon the work of the Cardinal Archbishop of Krakow (Poland); the same year that the suppression was lifted (1978), that cardinal was elected pope and took the name John Paul II.
—Michelle Arnold

You will need to provide your source, since it seems apparent that you were baiting us all along.

Furthermore, your theory is completely heretical and unorthodox. I invite you to research the word “hesed” that comprises the entire Jewish Old Testament thought, the essence of which is highly limited in our english word “mercy.” Hesed, mercy or love, is part of the vocabulary of the covenant. On God’s side, it stands for a steadfast love, one able to keep alive a relationship forever, regardless of what happens. See 2 Samuel Chapter 7 where God promises to David that He will establish an unconditional convenant in days to come. “My mercy I will not take from him.” (vs. 15)

You should do a search on the word mercy and see how almost every Psalm exalts God’s mercy, particularly Ps. 135, and Jewish understanding is that of “hesed.” I don’t know if this error is your private opinion or obtained from one of the many heretical websites, but I think you should do some study before proposing this nonsense as truth in a public forum.

 

[StMartin_67]

Well, finally we see your true colors, StMartin, as if none of us could see the underlying motive in your posts. This answer is found in Catholic Answers “This Rock” by CAF Apologist, Michelle Arnold:

You will need to provide your source, since it seems apparent that you were baiting us all along.

Furthermore, your theory is completely heretical and unorthodox. I invite you to research the word “hesed” that comprises the entire Jewish Old Testament thought, the essence of which is highly limited in our english word “mercy.” Hesed, mercy or love, is part of the vocabulary of the covenant. On God’s side, it stands for an steadfast love, one able to keep alive a relationship forever, regardless of what happens. See 2 Samuel Chapter 7 where God promises to David that He will establish an unconditional convenant in days to come. “My mercy I will not take from him.”

You should do a search on the word mercy and see how almost every Psalm exalts God’s mercy, particularly Ps. 135, and Jewish understanding is that of “hesed.” I don’t know if this error is your private opinion or obtained from one of the many heretical websites, but I think you should do some study before proposing this nonsense as truth in a public forum.

The “original Polish” is what was suppressed. And you haven’t addressed the issue I raised.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting Joysong!

You will need to provide your source, since it seems apparent that you were baiting us all along.

Precisely, Carole!

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[StMartin_67]

Quoting Joysong!

Precisely, Carole!

.

You haven’t read the diary, have you?

And you haven’t addressed this either:

There are other very odd things about the diary as well; like the way Our Lord said things about her which He never said to anybody else, such as how wonderful Sr. Faustina was. To St. Margaret Mary He said that she was nothing and that was why He chose her; to Sr. Faustina He said she was wonderful, lovely, delightful, and that was why he chose her.

Of course, we have her own word for this divine praise directed at her, but you know that already, don’t you? Or maybe not, have you read the Diary?

Appeals to our pride do not come from God. Think about that for a moment.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Are you sure it’s the same word attribute in Polish?

Are you sure she didn’t misunderstand? I’m pretty sure God didn’t dictate the diary to her. It’s not even an inspired document.

Her visions impressed on her that Mercy was the overwhelming feature of God. Whether she used the exactly correct theological words to express that is irrelevent.

This was a simple Nun recounting her visions, not a theologian versed in metaphysics

She’s been canonized, Rome Locuta Est, Causa Finita Est.

Please find something else to worry about.

God Bless

This was a simple Nun recounting her visions, not a theologian versed in metaphysics

,http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,oh well said!

Please find something else to worry about.

,and well said again!..although this me sits in a glass house, throwing stones worrying away …over nonesense because it just may lead others astray and undermine their love of the devotion of Divine Mercy and I regard that as very serious…

 

[Joysong]

The “original Polish” is what was suppressed.

Duh, did you not read what Michelle Arnold stated?
**A: Because of faulty translations from the original Polish, **

And you haven’t addressed the issue I raised.

Which is?

And you haven’t provided your source that it was suppressed for this alleged reason: “Faustina wrote that God told her that His greatest attribute was mercy. This is a very grave theological error and heretical. That’s why the suppression was upheld and why it was placed on the Index.”

I think you rather enjoy all of this undivided attention and are using it to dispense your heretical beliefs. Sorry, I am done here, you are not open to truth, or trying to learn. Rather, you are attempting to instill error to innocent readers. Please contact your priest/bishop/Michelle Arnold/Vatican. Obviously none of us are going to change your mind.