Do you fear that you may go to Hell?

[rcwitness]

We agree with you on this, we are not Pelagians.

I believe when you say “justification” you are taking on the Protestant understanding of a one time event. The Catholic view calls this one time event “initial justification” which is a pure gift but also asserts that justification itself is a process which includes sanctification. Not that in Romans and in James, they both reference Abraham’s justification but they cite two different events. So if justification is a one time event, when was Abraham justified?

Works do play a role in our justification as it relates to sanctification or the progressive justification (James) that takes place after initial justification (Paul/Romans). Yes it is still grace but we must respond to that grace by our works.

My own take is that we do not work FOR justification, we work because of it.

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Yes. We are justified apart from works, because God loved , forgave, and graced us even while we were in sin. Our belief and faith is how we know this, and know who God is and what He did for us. If we accept His saving forgiveness, there is a condition that we walk and work in Him. If we do not, then we forfeit our Justification and grace with Him. It doesn’t mean that we no longer need His grace, but that we rely on it to do what is pleasing to Him. We must be converted from our old nature and walk in His eternal nature.

I don’t think this has much of a difference to it than what most mainline Protestants believe. They may merely say that if one doesn’t work, then they were never really saved. Where as we would say, one can be truly saved, but their faith did not endure under the demand of actual works.

This was James’ point, that works complete faith. Faith is the gift of understanding Jesus as our Lord and savior. That God showed mercy and grace, when the law of works required eternal punishment. Now our work is done in thanksgiving.

 

[rcwitness]

Blessings Rcwitness,

My confidence is in the Lord.

Faith is NOT exaltation. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Salvation is God’s free gift received by faith.

I asking with respect. What do you think Rcwitness, do we should know if our works are supernatural?

LatinRight, I would like to answer your question… but I’m not sure what you are asking.

Are you under the impression that I am supporting, or implying a “works based salvation”? Let me erasure you, I am not.

Neither am I supporting a Justification by faith alone… IF by that one is to believe that our justification is NOT conditional on what we do with the gift of faith.

If faith does not accomplish good works, it is a vain faith that did not compel conversion in the love from above.

I am not even accusing “Justification by faith alone” subscribers of not working. Most likely they are. Still, this doesn’t justify teaching that we can refrain from good work and retain our justification.

 

[LatinRight]

Blessings Rcwitness and Ajcstr,

Thank you for your posts.

I have no time today to answer your posts, but I will answer soon.

I did study the article what you have suggested me Ajcstr to read. Thank you.
I will have comment on it.

I believe our justification is a onetime event and then continues event throughout all our Christian life.

Sorry about the question Rcwitness.
Now I ask a question as follows:
How we Catholics can know that our works are energized by actual grace or the spirit of fear that we might end up in hell?

I send you both a part of an article from the Fountain reports. (02/06/09)
I have to admit I believe Pope Benedict XVI public addresses in St. Peter’s Square is correct.
It is on the internet.

**POPE BENEDICT XVI: ‘LUTHER WAS RIGHT’

“Luther would have been amazed at the efforts of the Vatican today to put the Bible back into the heart of the Roman Catholic Church,” writes Jeff Fountain of Christian Today.
Fountain reports that during Pope Benedict XVI’s recent weekly public addresses in St. Peter’s Square, he quoted Martin Luther in declaring “Sola fide,” that salvation is by faith alone.

According to this report, Benedict affirmed that Luther had correctly translated Paul’s words as ‘justified by faith alone’ – the well known sola fide.

It was disagreement over the doctrine of salvation by faith that sparked the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, splitting Christianity in Western Europe. “Yet, said the Pope, it was indeed biblical to say, as did Luther, that it was the faith of a Christian, not his works that saved him.”

By defining “faith” as “identification with Christ expressed in love for God and neighbor,” Pope Benedict qualified his statement, noting that the Apostle Paul had written about such faith in his letters, especially the one to the Philippians.

According to Fountain, the Pope highlighted the fact that prior to his Damascus Road conversion, Paul had strictly adhered to all the Pharisaical laws and rules. However, after meeting the Lord Jesus in his vision, Paul began leading a lifestyle of faith alone.

“We began to dream about how Christians in Europe could celebrate the 500th anniversary of the Reformation in 2017 - less than nine years away - as a prophetic statement by Catholics and Protestants together that the Word that once divided us is now uniting us again.”

Fountain concludes joyfully, “That would be a giant step toward the fulfillment of Luther’s original dream of a Bible-centred Church!” **

I ALSO SEND YOU BOTH SOME PARAGRAPH FROM THE JOINT DECLARATION.

I believe, this declaration is far THE best teaching of the RCC on justification and salvation. – I believe it down to the last letter!!!

I believe Catholic priests should teach it.

**JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION
by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.

4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.

4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.

4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS. Emphasize mine.**

Blessings

Latin Right

 

[ajcstr]

I have no time today to answer your posts, but I will answer soon.

I did study the article what you have suggested me Ajcstr to read. Thank you.
I will have comment on it.

And please when you do, tell me when you believe Abraham was justified.

I believe our justification is a onetime event and then continues event throughout all our Christian life.

Can’t be both, its either one time as Protestant theology teaches (you are either saved or not saved) or a process as Catholic theology teaches.

I still believe you are confusing initial justification and progressive justification.

 

[rcwitness]

Sorry about the question Rcwitness.
Now I ask a question as follows:
How we Catholics can know that our works are energized by actual grace or the spirit of fear that we might end up in hell?

We know by faith.

**POPE BENEDICT XVI: ‘LUTHER WAS

It was disagreement over the doctrine of salvation by faith that sparked the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century, splitting Christianity in Western Europe. “Yet, said the Pope, it was indeed biblical to say, as did Luther, that it was the faith of a Christian, not his works that saved him.”

By defining “faith” as “identification with Christ expressed in love for God and neighbor,” Pope Benedict qualified his statement**, noting that the Apostle Paul had written about such faith in his letters, especially the one to the Philippians.Benedict qualified that faith must not be apart from Charity.

According to Fountain, the Pope highlighted the fact that prior to his Damascus Road conversion, Paul had strictly adhered to all the Pharisaical laws and rules. However, after meeting the Lord Jesus in his vision, Paul began leading a lifestyle of faith alone.

This is quite rediculous. I don’t believe Benedict said what I bolded!

For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.*But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me.*Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

 

[LatinRight]

And please when you do, tell me when you believe Abraham was justified.

Can’t be both, its either one time as Protestant theology teaches (you are either saved or not saved) or a process as Catholic theology teaches.

I still believe you are confusing initial justification and progressive justification.

Blessings Ajcstr,

Please keep in mind: According to RCC teaching there are only two group people in the world.

1. God’s elect. All God’s elect end up in heaven. They are predestined to heaven.
2. The reprobates. For their vehement rejection of God and his grace they all end up in hell.

So, when I speak about salvation, I always speak or write the salvation of the elect.

According to Scott Hahn, Abraham first was justified at Genesis chapter 12. – I believe he is correct.

If we use New Testament terminology we may say:
**Abraham received initial justification at Genesis Chapter 12 and then his justification and sanctification was an ongoing process throughout all his life. **

Catholic answers

**Grace: What is and What It Does

Quote: According to Scripture, sanctification and justification aren’t just one-time events, but are ongoing processes in the life of the believer. Both can be spoken of as past-time events, as Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 6:11: “But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.” Sanctification is also a present, ongoing process, as the author of Hebrews notes: “For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified” (Heb. 10:14). In regard to justification also being an on-going process, compare Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6 with both Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 12:1-4 and James 2:21-23; Genesis 22:1-18. In these passages, Abraham’s justification is advanced on three separate occasions. End quote.

I believe as it is written above.**

**I also believe:

Our initial justification is an irrevocable gift of God for us. – Rom.11:29.

Initial justification makes us eligible for heaven. – Can never be revoked and it is effective immediately. If we die one second after our baptism we go instantly to heaven in heavenly glory.

The above theological facts are DE FIDE Catholic Dogma (The highest level of theological certainty.)

After our baptism until we die we should work on our justification and sanctification to become more just and more holy.

There are significant differences between God’s gift of our initial justification and the outcome of our works on our justification and sanctification.

FOR EXAMPLE

1. Initial justification makes us eligible for heaven.
   Our works on our justification makes us eligible to receive rewards in heaven. – If our works are up to supernatural merit.
2. Our initial justification is condition to enter heaven.
   Our works on justification or any other works are not a condition to enter heaven (Rom.4:4-6; 1 Cor.3:11-15; etc.) – Our gift of initial justification is irrevocable. Once have been given to us, can never be revoked. – Rom.11:29;

We know this above for the following reasons:

For example:

I. If someone dies one minute after his baptism goes instantly to heaven.

II. If someone work all his life on his justification but his works are not up to the conditions of supernatural merit (work for the reason of the fear of hell or the reason to enter heaven or the reason of his fear that if he is not working lose his initial justification) all his graceless faithless works are wood, hay and straw, rejected by God but he is still enter into heaven.
If work would be condition to enter heaven then he would be enter into hell.

III. “For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” – Rom.11:29.

IV. “But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith counted for righteousness.” – Rom 4:5-6; 1 Cor.3:11-15.

I still could continue to provide more examples but I believe the above examples, conclusively proofs that NOT OUR WORKS BUT OUR FAITH SAVES US.

With respect, I would like to ask from you Ajcstr a crucially important question.

We believe by faith that our works are supernatural that God rewards.

The question:

Based on which Catholic teachings can we conclude that our works are supernatural?**

Same question with other words:

Which Catholic teachings we can use to prove that our works are supernatural (not energized by the spirit of fear of hell, doing it NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it **out of SHEER LOVE **for the glory of God)?

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[JustaServant]

I’ve often been told to.

 

[LatinRight]

We know by faith.

Benedict qualified that faith must not be apart from Charity.

This is quite rediculous. I don’t believe Benedict said what I bolded!

For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.*But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God which is with me.*Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

Blessings Rcwitness,

**THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FAITH:

a. BELIEF ……. (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.)

b. HOPE ……… (Unconditional TRUST in God.)

c. CHARITY …. (Unconditional LOVE for God.)

As you see Rcwitness, God’s gift of faith always includes charity.

The crux of the matter is; what is our reason to do charity works.

For example:

Person (a) believes salvation by grace alone/faith alone.

Person (a) have a knowledge to know for his salvation he don’t have to do charity works or any kinds of works.

He is doing as much charity works as he can and doing many other different kind of works (energized by actual grace) purely out of sheer love for the glory of God.

Person (b) believes salvation by faith + works.

Person (b) believes, for his salvation he has to do as much charity works and other different kind of works as much as he can otherwise he will end up in hell.

He is doing as much charity works as he can and doing other different kind of works (energized by the spirit of the fear of hell), for the reason not to lose his salvation and to be eligible for heaven.

Just suppose Person (c) believes salvation by grace alone/faith alone.

Person (c) “But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works.” – Rom.4:5-6; 1 Cor.3:11-15; etc.

All three stand before the judgment seat of 1 Cor.3:11-15.

Outcome of the judgment according to 1 Cor.3:11-15:

Outcome of the judgment of person (a): Enter heaven with a lot of supernatural merit and with abundant rewards.

Outcome of the judgment of person (b): If he makes it to the judgment of 1 Cor.3:11-15 enter heaven with no merits and no rewards because his work is not up to God’s standard of supernatural work.

His works are wood, hay and straw, rejected by God.

But because he has only partial faith in Christ and his work on the cross for his salvation I’m not sure he even makes it to the judgment of 1 Cor.11-15 because this judgment is only of those who go to heaven.

My opinion is: FAITH + WORK is a very dangerous ground.

I would never take a chance to believe Faith + Works for my salvation.

My faith is solely in Christ for my salvation and I work as hard as I can out of sheer love for the Glory of God.

Outcome of the judgment of person (c): Enter heaven with no merits and no reward.

I respectfully ask you Rcwitness, if you don’t agree with my above post, please correct it for my education and for the education of the members of the CAF.

Paul worked hard for the Glory of God not for his salvation to enter heaven.

He has written Rom.4:4-6; 1 Cor.3:11-15; etc.**

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

I’ve often been told to.

Blessings JustaServant,

How could I fear to go to hell when I’m already in heaven? – Col.1:13; Eph.2:6.



Quote: **“AUGUSTINE’S CONTRIBUTION TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.

We are inserted into the Body of Christ by our baptism and become members united to the Head, so that while our feet may be on earth we are already in heaven.” **End quote.

The above quote taken from a letter of Paul Maloney OSA Written September 19th 2012

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[rcwitness]

Blessings Rcwitness,

**THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FAITH:

a. BELIEF ……. (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.)

b. HOPE ……… (Unconditional TRUST in God.)

c. CHARITY …. (Unconditional LOVE for God.)

As you see Rcwitness, God’s gift of faith always includes charity.**Ok. Then faith is NOT alone.

The crux of the matter is; what is our reason to do charity works.

[/QUOTE]

 

[LatinRight]

Ok. Then faith is NOT alone.

Now we are back to works that come from faith.

Then you think God’s message through the Scripture of James is dangerous, instead of understanding what James was expressing. James shows that our enduring justification depends on whether or not faith has manifested the work it compels us to do. St Paul tells us that works do not bring us the Reconciliation that Jesus brought.

That is still NOT faith alone. Neither is it work based. So I believe it is Catholic.

Blessings Rcwitness,

YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE by Peter Kreeft

**If someone doesn’t know: Peter Kreeft is one of the most popular and widely-read Catholic authors of today.

“Highly recommended to all those who want to deepen their spiritual lives.
The beauty of this book is that it literally makes the [Bible] come to alive.” – John A. Harden, S.J. Author, The Catholic Catechism.

Quote from page 291;
The apparent contradiction between James, who says that we, like Abraham, are justified by works (2:21), and Paul, who says that we, like Abraham, are justified by faith (Rom.4:3), is explained by looking at the context.

Paul’s context is the relationship between the believer and God, while James’ context is the relationship between the believer and his neighbor.
God sees your faith; your neighbor sees your works.

Faith justifies us before God; works justify us before our neighbors. End quote.**

CONCLUSION

**James 2 could not talk about justification before God because:

1. Paul’s context is the relationship between the believer and God.
2. James’ context is the relationship between the believer and his neighbor.
3. Faith justifies us before God.
4. Works justify us before our neighbors. - This is the message of James.**

HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier

Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan

Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985

Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED?

We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

**For me salvation is not a matter of achieving.

I have received my irrevocable gift of salvation from God’s hands in faith.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. – Rom.11:29.**

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[ajcstr]

Last I checked, Peter Kreeft is not infallible.

For me, I’ll stick with the Catechism and the Councils.

Paul’s context is initial justification, James is talking about completing faith with works after initial justification (in cooperation with God’s grace).

And buy the way, you still never answered when Abraham was justified.

I really hate slinging verses, but …

Rom 11:22

Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Matt 25:41-46

Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”’

Revelation 14:12-13

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

 

[rcwitness]

Last I checked, Peter Kreeft is not infallible.

For me, I’ll stick with the Catechism and the Councils.

Paul’s context is initial justification, James is talking about completing faith with works after initial justification (in cooperation with God’s grace).

And buy the way, you still never answered when Abraham was justified.

I agree. And anyhow, we are NOT claiming that any man worked righteousness in order to be justified before God! That is opposed to the Gospel which the Catholic Church professes. Jesus alone fulfilled the work which brought man into a right standing with God. This was God’s good will to associate man with His life, and through the suffering of Christ that made our justification possible. He justifies the ungodly through reconciling man by His body and blood. The ungodly, then, do not remain ungodly, but live faithfully to what they have been saved into. Without conversion unto good deeds, the once justified through the cross, no longer have atonement for sin, who deliberately continue in sin. This is St James point. And Paul also recognizes this point. But Paul’s mission is to preach to the gentiles who are outside the Covenant. Therefore, he is preaching how we are not justified thru good deeds, since Christ came and was rejected. He did not condemn, but gave His perfect life as our eternal sacrifice.

 

[ajcstr]

Per Peter Kreeft:

When Luther taught that we are saved by faith alone, he meant by salvation only the initial step, justification, being put right with God. But when Trent said we are saved by good works as well as faith, they meant by salvation the whole process by which God brings us to our eternal destiny and that process includes repentance, faith, hope, and charity, the works of love.

Read the whole article here:

catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/justification-by-faith.html

 

[ajcstr]

YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE by Peter Kreeft

**If someone doesn’t know: Peter Kreeft is one of the most popular and widely-read Catholic authors of today.

“Highly recommended to all those who want to deepen their spiritual lives.
The beauty of this book is that it literally makes the [Bible] come to alive.” – John A. Harden, S.J. Author, The Catholic Catechism.

Quote from page 291;
The apparent contradiction between James, who says that we, like Abraham, are justified by works (2:21), and Paul, who says that we, like Abraham, are justified by faith (Rom.4:3), is explained by looking at the context.

Paul’s context is the relationship between the believer and God, while James’ context is the relationship between the believer and his neighbor.
God sees your faith; your neighbor sees your works.

Faith justifies us before God; works justify us before our neighbors. End quote.**

CONCLUSION

**James 2 could not talk about justification before God because:

1. Paul’s context is the relationship between the believer and God.
2. James’ context is the relationship between the believer and his neighbor.
3. Faith justifies us before God.
4. Works justify us before our neighbors. - This is the message of James.**

LatinRight

Peter Kreeft IS a major Catholic author so I did some research as what you quoted from him seemed odd to me. I would say the quotes you have here do not totally capture what Kreeft is saying in the book. (and after all, election season is a time for fact checking)

Don’t know if this link will work but this is the chapter you are extracting from and I think when the whole chapter (3 pages) is read it is more in line with what rcwitness and I are are saying than what you are drawing from it.

books.google.com/books?id=FuhKw_DOhOQC&pg=PA290&lpg=PA290&dq=kreeft+doers+of+the+word&source=bl&ots=Kz9IR1itdS&sig=Pj8sjUpyJgI2tjMe7d7NmgX14pg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiiwpHf8bTPAhXCeT4KHXIXDmEQ6AEINTAD#v=onepage&q=kreeft%20doers%20of%20the%20word&f=false

 

[LatinRight]

Last I checked, Peter Kreeft is not infallible.

For me, I’ll stick with the Catechism and the Councils.

Paul’s context is initial justification, James is talking about completing faith with works after initial justification (in cooperation with God’s grace).

And buy the way, you still never answered when Abraham was justified.

I really hate slinging verses, but …

Rom 11:22

Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Blessings Ajcstr,

I have answered in my post # 206 what I believe when Abraham was justified.

A quote from my post # 206.

According to Scott Hahn, Abraham first was justified at Genesis chapter 12. – I believe he is correct.

If we use New Testament terminology we may say:

**Abraham received initial justification at Genesis Chapter 12 and then his justification and sanctification was an ongoing process throughout all his life. **

**Matt25:41-46;

First**: If we take out of the context of the rest of the Scripture, we may conclude; salvation is by works.

Second: This judgment is not the judgment of the Bride of Christ.

The judgment of the Bride of Christ is described in 1 Cor.3:11-15.

No one can lose his/her salvation at the judgment of the Bride of Christ.

We are the Bride of Christ.

Third: Matt.25:31: This judgment takes place after Christ’s second coming when Christ will come down from heaven to the earth with his angels and with us/Bide of Christ [CCC 677].

At this time, when this judgment takes place (v 32 judgment of the nations) we are already immortal.

Our mortality changed to immortality at the fulfillment of John 14:1-3; 1 Thess.4:16-18; 1 Cor.15:42-44; 51-57.

Continue

Matt 25:41-46

Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”’

Revelation 14:12-13

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

 

[LatinRight]

Last I checked, Peter Kreeft is not infallible.

For me, I’ll stick with the Catechism and the Councils.

Paul’s context is initial justification, James is talking about completing faith with works after initial justification (in cooperation with God’s grace).

And buy the way, you still never answered when Abraham was justified.

I really hate slinging verses, but …

Rom 11:22

Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

Matt 25:41-46

Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”’

Revelation 14:12-13

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

Blessings Ajcstr,

I have answered in my post # 206 what I believe when Abraham was justified.

A quote from my post # 206.

According to Scott Hahn, Abraham first was justified at Genesis chapter 12. – I believe he is correct.

If we use New Testament terminology we may say:

**Abraham received initial justification at Genesis Chapter 12 and then his justification and sanctification was an ongoing process throughout all his life. **

**Matt25:41-46;

First: If we take out of the context of the rest of the Scripture, we may conclude; salvation is by works.

Second: This judgment is not the judgment of the Bride of Christ.

The judgment of the Bride of Christ is described in 1 Cor.3:11-15.

No one can lose his/her salvation at the judgment of the Bride of Christ.

We are the Bride of Christ.

Third: Matt.25:31: This judgment takes place after Christ’s second coming when Christ will come down from heaven to the earth with his angels and with us/Bide of Christ [CCC 677].

At this time, when this judgment takes place (v 32 judgment of the nations) we are already immortal.

Our mortality changed to immortality at the fulfillment of John 14:1-3; 1 Thess.4:16-18; 1 Cor.15:42-44; 51-57.**

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

**“Rom.11:22 … OTHERWISE YOU TOO WILL BE CUT OF.”

This warning deed not and could not addressed to the genuine Christians.

Genuine Christians are God’s elect/Bride of Christ.

A genuine Christian can NEVER be cut off, this is a DE FIDE Catholic Dogma (The highest level of theological certainly.)

If we have some knowledge about the book of Life, we know a genuine Christian can NEVER be cut off.

God has completed the Book of Life before the foundation of the world by taken out the names of the reprobates from the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of God and his grace.

The completion of the Book of Life put the human race into two groups.

Group (a): All those who are saved the names stand written in the Book of Life.

The other group (b): Are the reprobates. For their vehement rejection of God and his grace they are all end up in hell.

Christians sometimes misunderstand the Book of Life because: God is outside time.

He does not work in our chronological order.

God has completed the “Book of Life” and made the predestination of His elect from all eternity.

From “that point on” the Book of Life is not subject to alteration.

But for our understanding, the Book of Life in the Scripture is written in our chronological order.

It looks like the names of the reprobates taken out from the Book of Life at our time, at that point when they reject God and his grace.

This sometimes makes us confused and we may mistakenly believe an elect/member of the Bride of Christ can lose salvation.

This is not the case at all.

Every genuine Christian is God’s elect/member of the Bride of Christ and can never lose salvation.

Than what about (“Rom.11:22 … otherwise you too will be cut off.”) to whom Rom.11:22 addressed to?

1 John 2:19 explains it:

1 John 2:19 (IGNATIUS CATHOLIC STUDY BIBLE)

“They went out from us; but they WERE NOT of us; for if they HAD BEEN of us, they would continued with us; …”

We can be sure some of the reprobates whose names taken out from the Book of Life still among us in the Christian groups but they WERE not of us and they ARE NOT of us.

It is theological fact:

Any warnings which includes cut off, addressed to the reprobates who are among us but they are not part of us.

We can be positive: If we are genuine Christians we always will be genuine Christians, this is a* DE FIDE Catholic Dogma, (the highest level of theological certainty).*

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

**Revelation 14:12-13 … FOR THEIR DEEDS FOLLOW THEM!

If we want that our deeds follow us we must know the conditions of supernatural merit and we must do our works accordingly.

CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING**

Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.

**The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its object, intent, and circumstances. **

**It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY. **

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

**Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND** of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

HOW TO READ THE NEW TESTAMENT By Etienne Charpentier

Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan

Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985

Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become RIGHTEOUS and be SAVED?

We NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

**If we combine together the above teachings we don’t have to be spiritual geniuses to know, we must believe:

"We are NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.”

Otherwise our works (our deeds) will never be up to the standard of spiritual merit.

Because our works done by WITHOUT FAITH ENERGIZED BY THE SPIRIT OF

SLAVERY and we will have no supernatural works and our deeds will not follow us

because all our deeds are wood, hay and straw, rejected by God at the judgment of our

works and goes up in smoke. – 1 Cor.3:11-15.**

Blessings

LatinRight

 

[ajcstr]

If we combine together the above teachings we don’t have to be spiritual geniuses to know, we must believe:

"We are NOT justified by what we do (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

That’s good, because I’m no spiritual genius.

Direct contradiction to James (and Paul really). Works do not allow us to “earn” salvation, works cannot merit the sanctifying grace of initial justification, but works done within Christ do bring us merit, complete our faith, increase holiness. The basis of our works is grace, but we must cooperate it it. For instance, if I gave you a gift card and you went out and bought some food and fed a homeless person, you can’t boast “look at how generous I am”. On the other hand if you just stuck the card in a drawer, you wasted the gift. That my crude attempt at explaining merit and what the Catholic Church teaches about using the grace that God gives us. Our works are not our own so we can’t boast, but not using the grace that can cut us off as Paul teaches. God prepared good works that we should walk in them.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.”

Amen - agree 100 %

But - one must cooperate with grace after initial justification.

Again, you are mixing initial and subsequent justification.

You get it with Abraham as its clear you agree that he was justified at several times in his life in the Bible but I don’t know why you are fighting it here. You mentioned in another post that we are justified before others by our works but not before God. So does that mean that when James says Abraham was justified by his works he is not talking about Abraham being justified before God?

I guess its pointless to keep arguing this, but I’ll reiterate that I think you are straying from Catholic teaching here and what you are saying sounds more like reformed theology.

Spend $5.57 and listen to that Brant Petrie mp3. It’s a 45 minuite talk and he gives the Catholic reconciliation between Romans 3/Ephesians 2 and James 2 as clear as can be.

store.catholicproductions.com/collections/brant-pitre/products/faith-and-works-according-to-paul-and-james?variant=&variant=16598644033&variant=16682901761