Do you fear the rise of Islam in the West?

[Bezant]

What are your views on the demographic shifts in Western countries and the rise of Islam? Do you think this is a threat to Christianity? Do you think that Muslim immigration needs to be stopped? What is to be done?

The answer to this question lies in the problematic assumptions that belie your question.

For one, the so-called ‘rise’ of Islam is primarily talking about the increased visibility and prominence of Muslims. Furthermore, it’s a minority phenomenon that is by no means accelerated by only ‘outsiders.’

Since this qualification is often misunderstood (especially on these forums), I do think there is a serious threat – non-Muslim prejudice against Muslims bred by ignorance. Unfortunately, such prejudice forces the average, decent Muslim to answer for the actions of some random fringe group or Muslim country he’s never even visited.

Frankly, that’s rubbish.

I think Christians need to bin the silly notion that evangelisation is a rat race and that Islam is a threat to Christianity. If anything one should take a serious look at himself.

 

[Bezant]

What bothers me. is that there seems to little or no response from so called moderate Islamists when there are terrorist arracks. Shortly after the attacks of 9/11 a few spoke out but very little has been said since. IF violence is not tolerated by most of Islam, then there needs to outcrys against it. The silence is deafening.

A religion that condones violence or even tolerates violence and in some cases advocates violence, is certainly to be feared in any society that values peace and tranquility.

The question is not, ‘Is it there?’ but ‘Where are you looking?’

 

[Reuben_J]

Frankly, that’s rubbish.

Frankly I think Christians need to bin the silly notion that evangelisation is a rat race and that Islam is a threat to Christianity. If anything one should take a serious look at himself.

I think both merit some good points for consideration.

 

[1AugustSon7]

On the other, Muslims are no friends of ours, and their persecution would at the very least not be any less naked than what liberals are currently happily subjecting us to.

I have Muslim friends. Never persecuted me or anyone for that matter.

They would either have to join us in the lion pits, either as Catholics or as martyrs for infanticide, or formalize their heretofore functional apostasy.

Way over the top. You can speak of apathy, you can speak of a dangerous indifferentism to even their own religion, but apostasy?

Personally, I’m not afraid of Muslim immigration. And today, it seems that, in day to day life, Muslims are among the few groups of people that I know with whom I can have a healthy and even interesting conversation about God.

 

[1AugustSon7]

America will never allow the muslims to take over. We have our rights and freedoms (2nd amendment , For now anyways)

That is, until you go to the airport, where your dignity is denied you and you are treated like a criminal and an animal.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

It’s grossly incorrect to assert that the North African branch of the Church basically disappeared, there were still enough Christians that there were four bishoprics in the 14th century.

See, I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic. If not: What would you say if your friend was holding $350 dollars in her pocketbook and some thug came by, pushed her to the ground and when she got up she only had $4 left? Would you think it’s grossly incorrect to assert that all her money basically disappeared …on account of $4?

 

[FabiusMaximus]

I think Christians need to bin the silly notion that evangelisation is a rat race and that Islam is a threat to Christianity. If anything one should take a serious look at himself.

Try telling that to the Copts in Egypt, overwhelmed and completely submerged by the huge Islamic majority in Egypt.

Someone previously mentioned that the Christians had a period of peace and prosperity under Islamic rule, naming some elevated intellectuals used by Islamic rulers.

I’m not so sure that necessarily brings to the conclusion that the Islamization of North Africa was peaceful. North Africa was a bastion of Christianity, and the fact that it declined so rapidly refutes the notion of a peaceful assimilation into Islam.

At any rate, Bezant, evangelization or not, it’s not a “silly notion” to be worried about the rapidly growing Islamic populations in Western Europe. The growth is unprecedented in the history of the world, and we’ve already seen what occurs in areas of Europe that have already strong Islamic populations. Look at France, where there are entire Islamic enclaves where Islamic law prevails, and in which the French police rarely ventures.

It’s of course very true that the Church needs to seriously step up evangelization efforts in Europe, but to view the growing Islamic presence in Europe as simply the fantasies of a few is seriously misguided.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Course our good General and President George Washington would say to have peace we must prepare for war. There’s a scale here which runs from paranoia to naivety. Naivety has also been the downfall of many with Islam. Look at Lebanon through the 70’s forward.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

We already have seen the results of the rise of Islam in Europe. We already have fear in the public square, murder and assassination as a means of instilling that fear, and the refusal of immigrants to integrate in to the societies into which they have moved.

The future is here. Of course we have to wonder about the moderating effects of decadent culture. It has managed to weaken Christianity, so why would it not eventually weaken Islam? A sad commentary if that is our hope.

What are your views on the demographic shifts in Western countries and the rise of Islam? Do you think this is a threat to Christianity? Do you think that Muslim immigration needs to be stopped? What is to be done?

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

See, I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic. If not: What would you say if your friend was holding $350 dollars in her pocketbook and some thug came by, pushed her to the ground and when she got up she only had $4 left? Would you think it’s grossly incorrect to assert that all her money basically disappeared …on account of $4?

There’s a difference between dead and having a severe case of the flu.

Try telling that to the Copts in Egypt, overwhelmed and completely submerged by the huge Islamic majority in Egypt.

Someone previously mentioned that the Christians had a period of peace and prosperity under Islamic rule, naming some elevated intellectuals used by Islamic rulers.

I’m not so sure that necessarily brings to the conclusion that the Islamization of North Africa was peaceful. North Africa was a bastion of Christianity, and the fact that it declined so rapidly refutes the notion of a peaceful assimilation into Islam.

At any rate, Bezant, evangelization or not, it’s not a “silly notion” to be worried about the rapidly growing Islamic populations in Western Europe. The growth is unprecedented in the history of the world, and we’ve already seen what occurs in areas of Europe that have already strong Islamic populations. Look at France, where there are entire Islamic enclaves where Islamic law prevails, and in which the French police rarely ventures.

It’s of course very true that the Church needs to seriously step up evangelization efforts in Europe, but to view the growing Islamic presence in Europe as simply the fantasies of a few is seriously misguided.

Copts were the majority into the 14th century.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

Dakota Roberts;10098001':

Copts were the majority into the 14th century.

With all due respect: and?

 

[italian_man]

Yes I do believe it is a threat to Catholicism. Islam is increasing very fast and unfortunately the birth control pill is snuffing out Catholicism. It looks like Islam will unfortunately outnumber Catholics. It’s a very scary thought. But we all know that we have God’s promise that His Church will never be completely destroyed and will continue til the end of time.

 

[TEPO]

I’m not too worried about it…

The Muslims who leave the Middle East are abandoning their old ways and their ties to Islamic culture. What we can expect to see in the West in general, is a more watered down version of Islam. Here in California, I see many Muslim women dropping their head coverings and adopting more of a “western” dress… The men are shaving their beards and becoming tolerant of all kinds of things… The children become almost completely ‘westernized’.

…I’m more concerned with ‘Christianizing’ (?? I think that’s a word) the East…!

 

[Bezant]

Try telling that to the Copts in Egypt, overwhelmed and completely submerged by the huge Islamic majority in Egypt.

To suggest that the political conflicts in Egypt boil down to Islam is rather like arguing a knife murder is about a knife.

At any rate, Bezant, evangelization or not, it’s not a “silly notion” to be worried about the rapidly growing Islamic populations in Western Europe. The growth is unprecedented in the history of the world, and we’ve already seen what occurs in areas of Europe that have already strong Islamic populations.

The fact of the matter is that Muslims in Western European countries are a discriminated minority. Furthermore, since Muslims have been in Europe for centuries, I don’t understand your implication that they are “new” or “foreign” when many Muslims are in fact neither.

Look at France, where there are entire Islamic enclaves where Islamic law prevails, and in which the French police rarely ventures.

Hardly.

It’s of course very true that the Church needs to seriously step up evangelization efforts in Europe, but to view the growing Islamic presence in Europe as simply the fantasies of a few is seriously misguided.

You haven’t proven otherwise. Frankly, I find your views more prejudiced than convincing.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

There’s a difference between dead and having a severe case of the flu.

And there is a difference between “basically disappeared” and “totally disappeared” but it seems you responded to “basically disappeared” as if he said “totally disappeared.” What you said might prove it didn’t “totally disappeared,” but it doesn’t prove Christianity in north Africa didn’t “basically disappeared.”

 

[TEPO]

To suggest that the political conflicts in Egypt boil down to Islam is rather like arguing a knife murder is about a knife.
:

Wherever people are treated and act like animals there begins conflict. That’s the way I see it anyways -I could expand on that if you’d like.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

With all due respect: and?

Half a millenium later they were still the majority refutes the claim that it wasn’t peaceful assimilation and primary sources also disagree.

And there is a difference between “basically disappeared” and “totally disappeared” but it seems you responded to “basically disappeared” as if he said “totally disappeared.” What you said might prove it didn’t “totally disappeared,” but it doesn’t prove Christianity in north Africa didn’t “basically disappeared.”

He said “basically disappeared” a hundred years after the conquest of Carthage in A.D. 698 and I posted that there were still a non-trivial number half a millenium later.

 

[godisgood77]

The one command given more than any other in the Bible is “be not afraid”… resign to the divine will. There is nothing to fear… God goes before us always…

If you are familiar with Islam, you know that there is far more that unites us than divides us. Focus on that. Resist the urge to join the prophets of doom and contribute to moving all of God’s people closer to him.

 

[FabiusMaximus]

To suggest that the political conflicts in Egypt boil down to Islam is rather like arguing a knife murder is about a knife.

And what do the conflicts between Copts and the rest of the Egyptian population boil down to? Friendly rivalry? Soccer?

The fact of the matter is that Muslims in Western European countries are a discriminated minority. Furthermore, since Muslims have been in Europe for centuries, I don’t understand your implication that they are “new” or “foreign” when many Muslims are in fact neither.

Care to demonstrate how Muslims in Europe are “discriminated minorities”?

And I think you’re being rather disingenuous with your assertion that Islam has been in Europe “for centuries.” Invasion and occupation by Islamic powers does not mean that Islam is a part of Europe, and you implying that because Islamic powers have controlled various parts of Europe over the centuries that that somehow makes it “homegrown” or European is completely absurd. Plain and simple. As a matter of fact, it proves the opposite, because the reaction of Europeans has always been to treat it as a foreign enemy. That is why there was the Reconquista. That is why the Siege of Vienna in 1683 was considered a Christian victory against Islam. The Siege of Malta in 1565. The Battle of Lepanto in 1571. All the same thing.

The immigration of Muslims to Europe is an unprecedented phenomenon. There has never been such a huge influx of Muslims into European countries in such a fashion.

Hardly.

Hardly what? They exist. They’re called* Zones Urbaines Sensibles*. Look them up.

You haven’t proven otherwise. Frankly, I find your views more prejudiced than convincing.

The rate of immigration and high birthrates disagree with you.

Half a millenium later they were still the majority refutes the claim that it wasn’t peaceful assimilation and primary sources also disagree

No it doesn’t. The fact that they weren’t all slaughtered in one fell swoop does not suggest that they somehow peacefully Islamized. Indeed, there were several revolts by the Copts against the Muslim Arabs in the 800s.

 

[dzheremi]

Matthew 10:28 reminds us “do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

I am not afraid of Islam, even as things get worse and worse for a great many of my co-religionists in Egypt, Syria, Libya, Sudan, etc. Everything that is not planted by God will be uprooted, and what else do we have to worry about? The powerful witness of our modern martyrs under the yoke of the followers of Islam says more about the strength of our faith than that of the Muslims. They kill converts to Christianity, or plot to (look up, for instance, the case of Mohamed Hegazy in Egypt). Yet I can say honestly that everyone in my church has at least one story of a Muslim they knew back home in Egypt who abandoned Islam in favor of Christianity, even though in many cases the person cannot be baptized or must otherwise outwardly maintain the appearance of a professing Muslim. We have such people here on this very board, and may God bless them and keep them safe.

If you say you do fear Islam, be sure in yourself what it is that you fear. If it is that the Muslims will grow and we will not, then ask yourself if this fear can’t be eliminated by your own actions. You cannot stop a person from choosing Islam, but you can help a person to come to Christ (and the Holy Spirit will do what you cannot do, in guiding the person beyond your encouragement). You cannot stop a person from apostasizing from Christianity to Islam or some other religion, but you can pray for them, as St. Monica prayed for her son Augustine, and you can welcome them back to the fold with love, as in the parable of the prodigal son.

No, no…I have too much work to do to be afraid of Islam, or anything. God is with us, and no one can stand against us. He planted His Church in Egypt through His holy apostle St. Mark, and in India through St. Thomas, and in many, many other places where Christians are tiny minorities, and have been for centuries (in the case of India, they always were). Yet they are vibrant, for all their seeming troubles. Our joy never came from being left alone in the first place.

For everyone who is afraid of potential encroachment of Shari’a law in America, I think Fr. Josiah Trenham of the Antiochian Orthodox Church does a good job reminding us why it is that we have more to worry about than Islam when it comes to whose laws will govern what.

Oh, and the Christian faith is actually growing recently in the old North African provinces that used to be within the Roman sphere like Algeria. If you search “Christian Algeria” or “Christian Kabylie” (Kabylie = North Algeria Tamazight region), you’ll find many videos on Youtube of Algerian Christians and their stories, songs, etc. Also, other Christian material (mostly songs) from Morocco, Tunisia, etc.

Do not despair!