Do you feel offering Amnesty would help the illegal immigration problem?

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richbansha:
Shame on the bunch of you! We are talking about our brothers and sisters not our enemies. I agree with Fox. Going from Sonora to Arizona should be the same as going from Manhattan to Brooklyn. I’ll even do Fox one better, Mexican citizens should have the right to vote in local elections. Crazy? Tell that to the EU. If a Turkish Cypriot can live, work and vote in Spain what is our excuse for racism?

Don’t give me any ot that economic and political burden nonsense. If the EU can absorb Estonia and Latvia, recently Communist countries and economies that were far worse than Mexico’s, there is nothing to stop us from adopting Mexico and Canada too for that matter.

Border Security my dainty little foot! Why don’t you take a good look at what is really going on. Every move that congress and the administration has made since 9-11 has been designed to keep Americans IN not illegals out. We are going into a nationwide lock-down. Be afraid of that. Never mind the Mexican illegals.
Who says that we’re going to adopt Mexico and Canada? Maybe they’re going to adopt us. And why do you think illegal aliens should be able to vote in any election? They break our laws and then are rewarded with the right to vote? That sounds pretty stupid to me. This is not the EU, by any stretch of the immagination. I believe you are way out in liberal land.
 
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davy39:
Who says that we’re going to adopt Mexico and Canada? Maybe they’re going to adopt us. And why do you think illegal aliens should be able to vote in any election? They break our laws and then are rewarded with the right to vote? That sounds pretty stupid to me. This is not the EU, by any stretch of the immagination. I believe you are way out in liberal land.
No Davy that is not what I am saying. I’ll flesh it out a little bit better so you can more easily follow my line of thinking. If you look into it you might find a few things you can actually agree with. I am not the least bit interested in a communal relationship with any country. What I am calling for is, for lack of a better term, an American Empire that controls the entire western hemisphere.

Step 1: We negotiate a free trade treaty with every western hemisphere nation. No import or export duties at all. Free movement of labor and capital. That will give us full access to Mexican, Canadian and Venezualen oil and access to all of the important industrial metals in Peru, Bolivia and Brazil. We won’t need the Arabs or the Nigerians anymore.

Step 2: We raise not lower the requirements for American citizenship. I suggest 15 years residence and honorable service in the American military. Also change the law that allows anyone born here to get citizenship automatically. The children of aliens will not be born American citizens.

Step 3: We change the Social Security law in such a way as to insure that aliens pay into the system but cannot collect benefits. That will prop up the system for current and future retirees. For the aliens? Just a cost of doing business in the US.

Step 4: We open the border to anyone born in the western hemisphere. An Argentine is welcome. A Syrian or German gets the bum’s rush out, no exceptions. At the same time we will insist that Americans can come and go as they please everywhere else in the hemisphere. This helps everyone. American industry gets an influx of new labor. The other countries will get economic development from Americans going south to open factories, mines and export busineses that will employ local labor but be American owned and managed. Just imagine the surplus food production, when Americans buy and farm land in Argentina and Brazil using advanced American agricultural techniques. We could literally feed the whole world.

Step 5: Political reform. We reserve the election of President, Senators and Congressmen to American Citizens alone. We allow any resident of legal age to vote in local elections. We want to excude immigrants from influencing our national elections, but what is the harm if they get a vote for their local school board? After all, they will be taxpayers too. This little concession will allow immigrants to develop a sense of loyalty to thier communities and will give them a little taste of democracy that they can bring back to their homeland and cause their own governments to reform. They will be more willing to join our armed forces in a crisis.

Step 6: Grant tax immunity to American teachers and private schools in Latin America. This will allow Americans to go to Latin America and teach the English language and important industrial skills to prospective immigrants. The schools will be more profitable, the teachers will have a decent standard of living and more immigrants will arrive in America conversant in English and with important job skills.

Quite a scheme huh? If we want to keep our place at the top of the world food chain, this is the best strategy. Oh we might have to make a few adjustments on the way – no food stamps for aliens, English only education and so forth, but this can work and our place in the world will be secure for many generations.
 
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Geldain:
This keeps people IN the US? Not hardly. Passport in hand, and you are good to go. What’s hard about that?
Theoretically yes.

Bush stands firm on passports for Canadians

So some sort of reciprocation is expected from the Canadian side of the equation: passports for Americans crossing the border. Since fewer than 50% of Americans have any form of passport, it is believed that this new development will devastate the Canadian economy.

Well, except for the oil we’re going to be selling you. 😉
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Geldain:
So all the terrorists are in the US? :rolleyes:
No, I don’t think so. But some are. And some are in Canada. And some are in Mexico. We don’t want those folks trucking around willy nilly. Best to just stop em at the border and introduce em to our criminal justice systems.
 
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LRThunder:
Are you sure that’s US law and not Canadian law? Besides, one pretty much needs a passport when visiting other countries, even if it’s to step one foot in Canada or Mexico.
We haven’t needed passports to cross between the US and Canada. I think two things need to be considered which have not been discussed at all:
  1. We share a continent and all the resources that that implies.
  2. We share responsibility for perimeter defence without which we have deeply compromised defence.
 
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richbansha:
No Davy that is not what I am saying. I’ll flesh it out a little bit better so you can more easily follow my line of thinking. If you look into it you might find a few things you can actually agree with. I am not the least bit interested in a communal relationship with any country. What I am calling for is, for lack of a better term, an American Empire that controls the entire western hemisphere.
Manifest Destiny. Not a new idea, but I am glad that you have put it on the table. Let’s look at your proposals. Calling it an American Empire will doom it from the start. Unfortunately there is some blurring of the line between “American” as part of the US and “American” as part of the two continents of NA and SA. It should be called The Panamerican Union or something similar.
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richbansha:
Step 1: We negotiate a free trade treaty with every western hemisphere nation. No import or export duties at all. Free movement of labor and capital. That will give us full access to Mexican, Canadian and Venezualen oil and access to all of the important industrial metals in Peru, Bolivia and Brazil. We won’t need the Arabs or the Nigerians anymore.
Agreed. But Canada and the other Panamerican countries will need full access to the US as well as to each of the other countries.
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richbansha:
Step 2: We raise not lower the requirements for American citizenship. I suggest 15 years residence and honorable service in the American military. Also change the law that allows anyone born here to get citizenship automatically. The children of aliens will not be born American citizens.
No. Just plain no. That’s just confrontational and doesn’t address the challenge of boosting the economies and local pride of all the Panamerican countries. Citizenship should be standardized among all the countries and should depend on work record, military service, community service, health, and no criminal record. People should have some incentive to keep their own citizenships while having the power to move where the work is. How many Canadians do you think want to renounce their citizenship for the Stars and Stripes. Not very many. Doesn’t mean we don’t like you. We do. Just means we belong to the land which nurtures us, which is North of 49.
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richbansha:
Step 3: We change the Social Security law in such a way as to insure that aliens pay into the system but cannot collect benefits. That will prop up the system for current and future retirees. For the aliens? Just a cost of doing business in the US.
No. Just plain no. That’s a form of legalized theft.
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richbansha:
Step 4: We open the border to anyone born in the western hemisphere. An Argentine is welcome. A Syrian or German gets the bum’s rush out, no exceptions. At the same time we will insist that Americans can come and go as they please everywhere else in the hemisphere. This helps everyone. American industry gets an influx of new labor. The other countries will get economic development from Americans going south to open factories, mines and export busineses that will employ local labor but be American owned and managed. Just imagine the surplus food production, when Americans buy and farm land in Argentina and Brazil using advanced American agricultural techniques. We could literally feed the whole world.
Sounds good.
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richbansha:
Step 5: Political reform. We reserve the election of President, Senators and Congressmen to American Citizens alone. We allow any resident of legal age to vote in local elections. We want to excude immigrants from influencing our national elections, but what is the harm if they get a vote for their local school board? After all, they will be taxpayers too. This little concession will allow immigrants to develop a sense of loyalty to thier communities and will give them a little taste of democracy that they can bring back to their homeland and cause their own governments to reform. They will be more willing to join our armed forces in a crisis.
Good plan.
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richbansha:
Step 6: Grant tax immunity to American teachers and private schools in Latin America. This will allow Americans to go to Latin America and teach the English language and important industrial skills to prospective immigrants. The schools will be more profitable, the teachers will have a decent standard of living and more immigrants will arrive in America conversant in English and with important job skills.
No. Everyone should be taught English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, and one First Nation language in school. One’s fluency in several Panamerican languages should be a hallmark of those with education, influence, and affluence among us. The idea is to raise the bar, not promote semi-illiteracy.
 
I read today that the first US soldier killed in Iraq was an illegal immigrant from Guatemala.
 
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Thekla:
I read today that the first US soldier killed in Iraq was an illegal immigrant from Guatemala.
Interesting story:

LOS ANGELES — One of the first U.S. servicemen killed in combat in Iraq was not a citizen of the country for which he sacrificed his life.

Lance Cpl. Jose Gutierrez, 22, a rifleman with the Marines, died in a firefight March 21 near Umm Qasr.

Born in Guatemala, Gutierrez held permanent U.S. resident status, which he obtained in 1999.

At 14, with his parents dead, Gutierrez followed the path of 700,000 of his countrymen to California. He made the 2,000-mile journey from his Guatemala City neighborhood without entry papers. He hopped 14 freight trains to get through Mexico. U.S. immigration authorities detained him.

Fernando Castillo, Guatemala’s consul general in Los Angeles, says the United States doesn’t deport Guatemalan minors who arrive without family. Gutierrez was made a ward of Los Angeles Juvenile Court. He was placed in a series of group homes and foster families. He learned English and finished high school.

When he reached 18, he got residency documents, Castillo said.

militarycity.com/valor/256506.html
 
Ani, I am glad you chimed in. At first glance you seem to be a shade more collectivist than I am, but I fully recognize the merits of your position. Whatever differences we may have are well within the capabilities of diplomats to negotiate to everyone’s satisfaction. I like that idea.
Ani Ibi:
Manifest Destiny. Not a new idea, but I am glad that you have put it on the table. Let’s look at your proposals. Calling it an American Empire will doom it from the start. Unfortunately there is some blurring of the line between “American” as part of the US and “American” as part of the two continents of NA and SA. It should be called The Panamerican Union or something similar.
I don’t like the word “empire” either but I could not think up a better term.
Agreed. But Canada and the other Panamerican countries will need full access to the US as well as to each of the other countries.
Absolutely. It won’t work any other way. This century must be an age of collaboration and not colonialism.
No. Just plain no. That’s just confrontational and doesn’t address the challenge of boosting the economies and local pride of all the Panamerican countries. Citizenship should be standardized among all the countries and should depend on work record, military service, community service, health, and no criminal record. People should have some incentive to keep their own citizenships while having the power to move where the work is. How many Canadians do you think want to renounce their citizenship for the Stars and Stripes. Not very many. Doesn’t mean we don’t like you. We do. Just means we belong to the land which nurtures us, which is North of 49.
I respectfully disagree here. This is why: Eventhough we are trying to forge a wide-open trading cooperative, I don’t think we should abandon national self-determination. I know that citizenship can be granted in Canada, Paraguay and Argentina in as little as two years of residence. That is fine when immigration is controlled by the points system that is in place. I, however, propose a migration free-for-all. Under those conditions, the US may become more balkanized but Canada and Quebec, in particular, could be “conquered” by Brazil in two years. I would hate to see such a sudden loss of national identity.
No. Just plain no. That’s a form of legalized theft.
Not exactly. As things stand now, they don’t get it anyway. Not in the US that is. Canada, I don’t know. I am betting on economic growth and higher wages for the immigriants to offset any loss to the payroll tax. If this truly becomes unfair or exploitive, naturally I would be open to reform.
No. Everyone should be taught English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, and one First Nation language in school. One’s fluency in several Panamerican languages should be a hallmark of those with education, influence, and affluence among us. The idea is to raise the bar, not promote semi-illiteracy.
I agree with the polyglot idea without reservation. What I count on to bring this about would be schools of French, Spanish, Portugese opening through the US, Canada and the rest of the hemisphere. Except that these schools will be staffed by native speakers from their own respective countries where these languages are spoken. I would pay good money to go to a French school staffed by native Hatians. No problem.
 
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richbansha:
I agree with the polyglot idea without reservation. What I count on to bring this about would be schools of French, Spanish, Portugese opening through the US, Canada and the rest of the hemisphere. Except that these schools will be staffed by native speakers from their own respective countries where these languages are spoken. I would pay good money to go to a French school staffed by native Hatians. No problem.
Yeah, the native speaker idea will work. That’s a good idea. Brazilian Portuguese is much different from Portuguese Portuguese.
 
Can I just say that I don’t think that any of this is very fair to people who came over here legally?

I know that has been hashed out… But, when my sister in laws parents came over here from the Philippines, legally, and expected their 5 children to follow behind… Can you imagine how hard it was for all of them to be separated from each-other FIVE years…? Again, they came over here legally, and illegal activity kept them apart. I kinda think that anybody who came over here legally should get some huge refund check, or something for doing things by the law if amnesty is granted.

I do feel for illegals, I especially feel for them because they have a government that could care less about them. I can’t judge them, because I was blessed to be born here… But, I still don’t believe all of them want to be a part of this country. Isn’t that what immigration is about?
 
If the government would secure both border by either fence or virtual fence and total stopping all illegal immigration. Then deal with the individual situation of each of the illegal immigrates.
 
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