Do you feel uncomfortable that JP2's sainthood is being fast-tracked and that his canonization appears to be a forgone conclusion?

[Lepanto]

What, exactly, is being “fast-tracked”? The only thing I am aware of is that the 5 year waiting rule was waived by His Holiness B16.

Well, I think you answered your own question.

If anything, JP2’s waiting period should be extended so that all of the excitement dies down. We don’t want sainthood to be nothing more than a high school popularity contest or American Idol.

Also, JP2’s words and deeds are vast and influential. What if he was wrong about certain things that move the Church in a bad direction? Only the wisdom of time can reveal these things.

So again, what’s the big rush? If he’s in heaven or purgatory he’s made it. It’s not like he has a train to catch.

 

[allhers]

Why do people care so much about a person declared saint?

Their life is held up as a model for us to follow, often we fall far short. Sometimes just reading about a Saint’s life shows us how much God is deeply loved by some that they choose to give their whole life over to HIM. They are indeed Saints in the fullest expression of the word. They live their lives for HIM, as He lives in them.

 

[scylla]

Infallibility is recognition of truth, which would be the case if the Church recognizes the status of Pope John Paul II.

Now I know that John Paul II was an extremely holy man and was quite loved, so it is quite natural to want to recognize him as a Saint. Yet there were very poor administrative errors and scandals which he allowed and even participated in. We know that those in positions of responsibility are judged more harshly than us ordinary folk, so that would be the only reason to delay some. Yet we should also recognize the fact that we can repent from sin and Pope John Paul II by all accounts was firmly focused on serving Christ to the end, even with his mis-steps.

We believe in a merciful God and any temporal punishment the Pope might endure would surely be relieved by the worldwide amount of prayers and Masses offered for him to be purified by Christ.

God works in many ways and even with the “fast track” process I am sure the Church will just confirm the truth of our beloved John Paul II. We just need to trust in Christ’s promises for the Church, pray and be faithful, God will support the Church and it all will work out in the end.

In Christ
Scylla

I would be more concerned if this waiting period was dispensed and it was all taken casually, but this doesn’t really seem the case. (I don’t beleive the Church make it a regular thing though and since it really isn’t our decision all we can do is pray and support the Pope)

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Lepanto,
I get a sense from you, that you were no great fan of Pope John Paul II. Was he not conservative enough for you?

Jim

 

[Larowyn]

Blessed Brother Andre has waited for 71 years, and yet people are already hoping that Pope John Paul II will be canonized soon or immediately.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

LOL - as if anyone else up for sainthood will be upset if JP2 ‘jumped the line’?

:bounce: :whacky:

:whacky: :bounce:

 

[Lepanto]

Lepanto,
I get a sense from you, that you were no great fan of Pope John Paul II. Was he not conservative enough for you?

Jim

I have not said anything that should make you think that.

I simply fear for the integrity of the canonization process for the reasons already mentioned.

 

[frommi]

I don’t mind the process being moved along…I just wish from time to time that we would see a ‘normal’ person fast tracked…

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Blessed Brother Andre has waited for 71 years, and yet people are already hoping that Pope John Paul II will be canonized soon or immediately.

I don’t mind the process being moved along…I just wish from time to time that we would see a ‘normal’ person fast tracked…

Part of the issue, though, is the extent of one’s “cult” (whether it be official for a blessed or nascent for a venerable). It only makes sense to push along the causes of those holy men and women who have devotees the world over. Since saints are for the universal Church (as opposed to blesseds who maintain more of a localized cult), if someone’s life/witness already speaks to global audiences, why shouldn’t that person go to the front of the line over someone who needs a while to “drum up” global appeal?

 

[Lepanto]

I don’t mind the process being moved along…I just wish from time to time that we would see a ‘normal’ person fast tracked…

The best solution is not to fast-track anybody. We don’t want sainthood turning into a race.

Each investigation should take as much time as needed, and on an individual basis. No longer amount of time, and no shorter amount of time. Treat every candidate EQUALLY.

 

[Larowyn]

Part of the issue, though, is the extent of one’s “cult” (whether it be official for a blessed or nascent for a venerable). It only makes sense to push along the causes of those holy men and women who have devotees the world over. Since saints are for the universal Church (as opposed to blesseds who maintain more of a localized cult), if someone’s life/witness already speaks to global audiences, why shouldn’t that person go to the front of the line over someone who needs a while to “drum up” global appeal?

Blessed Brother Andre had a lot of appeal in and after his lifetime, but it’s going away now.

 

[Spirithound]

Do you feel uncomfortable that JP2’s sainthood is being fast-tracked and that his canonization appears to be a forgone conclusion?

I do. Sainthood is too important a matter to be playing favorites (or at least that’s how it seems). There is a system in place for determining canonicity, and it should be followed without exception.

I understand your concerns and I agree somewhat. From our human perspective, the fast-track does seem to have the potential to lead some people to view sainthood as a popularity contest of sorts.
However, I don’t see the 5-year waiting period as an essential part of the process (although I would not object to that period being adhered to in all cases). The required divine indications, 2 miracles are not being dispensed with. Additionally, as a PP has pointed out, canonization is an infallible declaration, so if Pope JP II is indeed declared a saint, then we can be sure that he was already in heaven. If, however, it is actually the case that he’s not in heaven, and Pope BXIV tried to make that declaration, I believe he would die before he signed the document, or made the pronouncement.
So, I do exhort you to be obedient to the Holy Father, and even though you may disagree with it, support JP II’s canonization process, and if someone makes objections, read them the paragraph above.
God bless.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Blessed Brother Andre has waited for 71 years, and yet people are already hoping that Pope John Paul II will be canonized soon or immediately.

Unfortunately, marketing is everything. There are many saints whose names are known to no one save God alone. They may never be elevated in the eyes of the earthly church but they are saints none the less.

 

[Larowyn]

Unfortunately, marketing is everything. There are many saints whose names are known to no one save God alone. They may never be elevated in the eyes of the earthly church but they are saints none the less.

What? Brother Andre was probably the most well known member of the clergy in North America during his lifetime. His body hasn’t decomposed, you can go to Montreal and see his heart, and he was involved in a good many miracles.

 

[st_lucy]

Our ways are not God’s ways. If you truly believe that it is the Holy Spirit who guiding the Church and Her leaders, than there should be no doubt that if the Church says “we are going to speed up JPII canalization.” Than you would know that this is the doing of the Holy Spirit, for some reason maybe He can see the benefit of doing this that we cannot even begin to understand.

It is a rather silly thing to argue about isn’t. Let’s try not to rush to fast to that seat of Peter that is already being occupied. God knows what He is doing let’s let Him do it.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

What? Brother Andre was probably the most well known member of the clergy in North America during his lifetime. His body hasn’t decomposed, you can go to Montreal and see his heart, and he was involved in a good many miracles.

I’m glad. But this is the first that I have ever heard of him. So, I have never been able to apply to him for his intercession. Perhaps I am alone in my ignorance,

 

[Larowyn]

Not many people are left who were alive when he was, so naturally he is not remembered well outside of Montreal anymore. He built the Oratory of St Joseph in Montreal, and I think it’s the biggest Catholic Church in North America.

 

[MarieVeronica]

Do you feel uncomfortable that JP2’s sainthood is being fast-tracked and that his canonization appears to be a forgone conclusion?

I do. Sainthood is too important a matter to be playing favorites (or at least that’s how it seems). There is a system in place for determining canonicity, and it should be followed without exception.

No, I don’t. John Paul II lived a life of great suffering and heroic virtue. He was and is a very holy soul. Completely dedicated to Our Lord and Our Lady. I don’t think that anything will be “given” to our late Holy Father, which God doesn’t Will. I would recommend reading some of his books and writings, if you haven’t already. They are a window into his great spirituality and love of God.

Please remember that Blessed Teresa of Calcutta was also termed a “fast track” saint. I admire her greatly, (as apparently you do, too)… and have never felt uneasy about her Beatification. I pray she will soon be Canonized.

I give great thanks to God… for the blessing of these two holy souls… who were on the earth during our lifetime. (And that I received the blessing, in person… of John Paul the Great). God bless.

 

[Lepanto]

No, I don’t. John Paul II lived a life of great suffering and heroic virtue. He was and is a very holy soul. Completely dedicated to Our Lord and Our Lady. I don’t think that anything will be “given” to our late Holy Father, which God doesn’t Will. I would recommend reading some of his books and writings, if you haven’t already. They are a window into his great spirituality and love of God.

But the purpose of the investigation of a candidate by the Congregation for the Causes of Saints is to verify worthiness of canonization. They are supposed to look at a candidate’s life behind the scenes. JP2 was a very public figure, and that’s all that most of us really know about him. That is a very superficial knowledge of a person. The Congregation’s job is to dig MUCH deeper into a person’s past – behind the camera, so to speak.

In every investigation, we must hold out the possibility, however remote, that the decision rendered by the Congregation might be “no” – that the person is unworthy.

But with JP2 (and Mother Theresa for that matter), I feel like their causes for sainthood are like freight trains. Completely unstoppable. Could you imagine the public uproar if the Congregation, for whatever reason, concluded that JP2 or Mother Theresa were not worthy of canonization? (I’m getting a sense of the uproar on this thread just by raising the issue.)

If we force the hand of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, then the investigations are pointless. JP2 and Mother Theresa should just be canonized today and the Congregation dissolved. If we all know it’s a sure thing, why wait even one more day?

 

[Eilish_Maura]

If we force the hand of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, then the investigations are pointless. JP2 and Mother Theresa should just be canonized today and the Congregation dissolved. If we all know it’s a sure thing, why wait even one more day?

That some causes can be ‘fast tracked’ does not negatively impact the Congregation in any way. It does recognize that we are in a world were information is easier to find and confirm (or disprove) as well as faster to disseminate as needed.