Do you find a problem with Mary as an Intercessor?

[Nicea325]

Do you believe God can be influenced? How did Jesus tell us to pray?

Do you believe God can tempt people?

 

[KathleenGee]

Faithdancer,

We have experiences in life that no matter how hard we pray, no matter how hard and long our friends here on earth pray with us, prayers and needs don’t get answered.

The Lord has blessed us with the communion of saints who are now with the Lord, see Him, and as Scripture says, ‘heaven watches us with a thousand eyes’.

When I pass on, and know God’s mercy and am with Him in the next life, I share with Him here on earth the preseverence of the just and the conversion of sinners, myself, my family, other Christians and the rest of the world. We hunger that all people will be saved and die in the Lord.

It is scrupulous to think that nobody but the sinners here on earth can pray; the saints in heaven pray for us, before Christ we also ask them to pray for us and the same intentions for all souls. Mary was full of grace, blessed above all women, and she, too, can also be included in the saints to pray for us.

 

[Patrocinor]

Many with finite minds cannot grasp the infinite. Their minds can only grasp earthly things. It has always struck me that if Mary or any other saint cannot intercede for the Church Militant (on earth) that deny’s they even exist. I have even heard that argument. The argument being, “they are dead.” But the soul does not die. After death comes judgement. Heaven or Hell in the end. Are they denying the soul? I cannot imagine lives such as Mary’s not making it to heaven. That is inconceivable to me. Just from a rational point of view. What good was the cross if not to save souls to live eternally with God? They made it to heaven based on their love and charity for others. Why would that stop because they are the Church Triumphant (in heaven)? Do they stop caring because they went to heaven? I think not.
In the Deuterocanical books of Maccabees and Tobit we see the following:
2 Macc 15:11-16 - Judas has a vision of Onias and Jeremias interceeding with God for their earthbound brethern.
Tobit 12:12 - We see the Angel Raphael speaks/ offers and reads supplications when burying the dead. It was this same Angel who offered the prayers of Tobit and Sarah to the “Glory of the Lord.”
Rev 5:8 - The elders hold the gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the saints as they offer it to the Lamb.
Rev 8:3-5 - An angel offers to God the prayers of the saints.
Christ is not honored by ignoring those who loved and served him.
It would be a violation of love for any saint to reject your prayers.
“I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” Matthew 22:32
Do you think that the woman who gave Jesus His flesh and blood and is intimately bonded with her Son through motherhood could be denied anything she asks of Him? I think this can be summed up at the Wedding Feast at Cana in Jn 2:5 - With great confidence she tells the servers, “Do whatever He tells you.” Even though His hour had not yet come, He did as she requested. What was good on earth is now good in heaven. She is the Queen Mother who cannot be denied a request consistent with the will of God.
Mother of God - Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen!

 

[GaryTaylor]

If one is to believe in the process of divinization, what do you suppose this entails?

When there is disaster and tragedy here, everyone prays no? For themselves, others, the dead, wounded, the weather, first responders and everything else? What is that called? What makes you believe, in the perfection of Gods Kingdom that you would abandon this very Biblical reality if this is what indeed bought you to God? Prayer is conversation with God also, so no-ones talking in Heaven?

 

[Faithdancer]

First, Abraham prayed (or spoke) directly with God. There was no intermediary.
Second, if you pray for someone that is not the same thing as praying to them, not the same thing at all.
Third, only God has an infinite mind.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Why does there need to be a command? Do you know why we venerate relics? Because that relic of a saint connects us to Christ. A person is body and soul, the body is here with us while the soul is with Christ. Ultimately, all veneration given to a saint flows up to Christ because a saint is only a saint because the light of Christ is in them. That halo we place on their icons isn’t merely an indicator of sorts to say they are saints, that is a representation of the reality that Christ’s light shines through them. When we kiss their relics, when we kiss their icons, we ultimately kiss Christ who is in them.

When we pray to saints we know Christ hears our prayers because as Jesus said, He is in them and they in Him. This all is part of the great mystery of Communion which is the very essence of the Church.

I love this explanation of relics and icons. Can I use it?

 

[SAVINGRACE]

First, Abraham prayed (or spoke) directly with God. There was no intermediary.
Second, if you pray for someone that is not the same thing as praying to them, not the same thing at all.
Third, only God has an infinite mind.

First, Catholics are free to pray directly to God or the Saints. We use the Saints because the more people of faith you have praying for you the more efficacious the prayer. A person on earth praying for me can have their prayers diluted or polluted by busy schedules; lifestyles; stress; distractions; stain of unconfessed sins etc. A Saint in Heaven praying for me is someone who is purified and sins no more and in the direct presence of God therefore their prayers are more efficacious.

Second, you may be confused as to what Catholics use prayer for. We don’t relate to prayer as a form of Worship. Catholics use prayer as a form of communication between those in Heaven and those on Earth. For Catholics the highest form of Worshipping God is the Mass. Many Protestants equate ‘singing + prayer=worshipping God’ which is why they get outraged/confused when we say we ‘pray to Mary and the Saints’, to them praying should only be reserved for worshipping God whereas for us praying is only a form of communication and the Mass is reserved for worshipping God. For us the Mass is the pinnacle of worship. When we pray to the Saints we are asking them to pray to God for us. We are not worshipping the Saint themselves.

Third, agreed however that does not negate or provide proof against the Catholic practice of praying to Saints.

 

[Faithdancer]

Having completed 11 graduate courses in theology from a Roman Catholic seminary and college… (including Mariology and Revelations) I’m not hearing anything new here, just getting lectured by folks who don’t understand why Jesus Christ himself taught us to pray to God and no one else. Well, I used to be there too, so I’m not really so annoyed with the condescension as bored with it. Enjoy your Mary cult, I don’t suppose there’s any real harm in it as long as you don’t regress any further into the Babylonian mysteries. Nothing against Mary at all, I’m fine with “full of grace,” virginitas antepartum and in partu (kind of a no-brainer, given antepartum). Immaculate conception? Virginitas post-partum et in perpetuum? Assumption? Not really necessary, are they, for our salvation? The very obsession with these details is prima facie evidence of a cult, which for some detracts from placing the attention where it ought to be placed.

Personally I barely have enough time in the day to adequately give praise and adoration to God and throw myself to His mercy, let alone worry about whether I’m giving Mary hyperdulia. I’m sure she’s doing just fine.

 

[MartinJordan]

Having completed 11 graduate courses in theology from a Roman Catholic seminary and college… (including Mariology and Revelations) I’m not hearing anything new here, just getting lectured by folks who don’t understand why Jesus Christ himself taught us to pray to God and no one else. Well, I used to be there too, so I’m not really so annoyed with the condescension as bored with it. **Enjoy your Mary cult, **I don’t suppose there’s any real harm in it as long as you don’t regress any further into the Babylonian mysteries. Personally I barely have enough time in the day to adequately give praise and adoration to God and throw myself to His mercy let alone hit up any lesser deities, not that I believe there are any.

While I pray for you, it’s sad you’ve resorted to insults.

MJ

 

[Faithdancer]

Praying for you

MJ

Thanks! Just don’t pray to me.

 

[Faithdancer]

While I pray for you, it’s sad you’ve resorted to insults.

MJ

I assume you are referring to my use of the word “cult?” Have you ever heard of the apostolic exhortation Marialis Cultis, from Pope Paul VI? Are you aware that the magisterium refers to it as a “cult?”

 

[MartinJordan]

Thanks! Just don’t pray to me.

You’re welcome…I think

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

I assume you are referring to my use of the word “cult?” Have you ever heard of the apostolic exhortation Cultis Marialis, from Pope Paul VI? Are you even aware that the magisterium refers to it as a “cult?”

Of course. There is also the Infant Jesus cult.

MJ

 

[Faithdancer]

Of course. There is also the Infant Jesus cult.

MJ

By the way, I just noticed your favorite Christian song is by Jason Upton. I like that song too, its one of the many songs written by evangelical Protestants that are regular fare in Catholic youth masses and teen charismatic events. Just saying’

 

[GaryTaylor]

Having completed 11 graduate courses in theology from a Roman Catholic seminary and college… (including Mariology and Revelations) I’m not hearing anything new here, just getting lectured by folks who don’t understand why Jesus Christ himself taught us to pray to God and no one else. Well, I used to be there too, so I’m not really so annoyed with the condescension as bored with it. Enjoy your Mary cult, I don’t suppose there’s any real harm in it as long as you don’t regress any further into the Babylonian mysteries. Nothing against Mary at all, I’m fine with “full of grace,” virginitas antepartum and in partu (kind of a no-brainer, given antepartum). Immaculate conception? Virginitas post-partum et in perpetuum? Assumption? Not really necessary, are they, for our salvation? The very obsession with these details is prima facie evidence of a cult, which for some detracts from placing the attention where it ought to be placed.

Personally I barely have enough time in the day to adequately give praise and adoration to God and throw myself to His mercy, let alone worry about whether I’m giving Mary hyperdulia. I’m sure she’s doing just fine.

Anti Mother of the Lord cults also who separate Gods Kingdom and His most Holy Family.

All prayer is to God and no-one else. And after 11 graduate course’s you “should” know this. There is no distraction but in “your” opinion. Somehow in your mind you have the Mother of the Lord separated from the Holy Spirit and working independently as a separate agent flying around the world with a agenda other than Gods. Impossible.

The fact your so busy and have no time to pray to God is something you should re-evaluate, perhaps the time you take to tell others how intelligent you are in ascent, would be better spent in descent of prayer.

Sadly I have found in this world, often the most difficult to communicate the Kingdom of God to are intellects, often they are prisoners of there own mind which they deem far superior to Gods other creatures and blinds them from the spiritual, they cannot separate their “carnal” oh so elevated thinking of themselves. But then again, you should know this.

Knowledge comes where wisdom lingers. Descend in order to elevate others. Intercede for man like Abraham. Be like Abraham.

 

[Faithdancer]

Misquoting me and resorting to ad hominems. Sorry, when the flaming starts I disengage.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Misquoting me and resorting to ad hominems. Sorry, when the flaming starts I disengage.

And remain locked in your train of thought which assuredly will kept it intact? Yes, I also vividly remember this part of the conversations. I’m already trying another key to the locked door.

Luke 1:35

“The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you”…

When did this reality become not a reality?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Faithdancer…

Intercessor: One who goes between, or intercedes; a mediator. (a) One who interposes between parties at variance, with a view to reconcile them. (b) One who pleads in behalf of another.

So we can see from the definition that anyone that goes to God in prayer for you is an intercessor. I prayed for you last night (hope you do not mind ) so therefore I interceded for you. That makes me an intercessor. Now you can state that praying for someone is not the same as praying to someone. Fair enough, that fact still stands. If I “pray” to Mary and ask for her prayers, that is no different than you asking a friend to pray for you. Scripture tells us to pray for others and to ask them to pray for us.

 

[PRmerger]

Having completed 11 graduate courses in theology from a Roman Catholic seminary and college… (including Mariology and Revelations) I’m not hearing anything new here, just getting lectured by folks who don’t understand why Jesus Christ himself taught us to pray to God and no one else.

No, Faithdancer. Jesus never said any such thing. That is a man-made tradition you’ve been duped into believing.

You have a limited view of what prayer is, since you don’t have the Mass. You seem to believe that prayer can only be worship.

That, too, is a man-made tradition you’ve been duped into believing.

 

[Lochias]

By the way, I just noticed your favorite Christian song is by Jason Upton. I like that song too, its one of the many songs written by evangelical Protestants that are regular fare in Catholic youth masses and teen charismatic events. Just saying’

Well, law of averages states that even an evangelical Protestant is bound to get something right once in a while. Wouldn’t put too much behind it, though.