Do you hate Mass?

[ProVobis]

Oooh! Guess what I saw today? I went to the TLM tonight and while the priests (one or two were acting as deacons) had their backs to the congregation, two little girls running across the front of the church (to get to the stairs to the bathroom?). I also saw a young man check his phone and after the Eucharist, open his phone and inconspicuously text. At the Latin Mass. Hmmm…

I have a real problem with people bringing in their cells to Church at all, Mass or no Mass.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Wait a minute…I am being told on this thread to not judge people by their outward appearance, that they may not be giving a physical indication of “loving Mass,” but that doesn’t mean that they hate Mass.

But you are saying that through outward appearances, you KNOW that people don’t realize what is going on in Mass?

How can this be?

Simple: by talking to them.

And by the way, everyone, I am old enough to know that people are not necessarily joyless because they aren’t clapping and swaying and smiling. The opposite is also true–people can be doing cartwheels up the aisle in the church, but that doesn’t mean they are filled with joy. I 've seen plenty of people in Pentecostal churches who literally “hate” the teachings of God, but they put on an awfully good show in church.

When I say that people seem to hate the Mass, I’m talking about people who post things that seem to imply this. When people say such awful things about their Masses and post a litany of hateful complaints, am I to infer that they LOVE Mass?

You know, I have never yet met up with a real-life person who makes any of the complaints about Mass that the people on this forum make. Hmmm…

Yes, and now we get to what you really meant, which is what I figured, and this does demonstrate that you were not completely forthcoming in your original post, which was baiting. Right?

It’s really not so complicated: there are lots of irreverent Masses said, lots of inappropriate behavior (as in CONDEMNED BY ROME), and downright abuses, and some people don’t like that. Some people LOVE THE CHURCH enough to want its Masses to be as pure and holy as possible.

Are there people who go too far? Well, probably. But that certainly doesn’t mean there isn’t a problem! Who, at this point, who is orthodox fails to acknowledge at this point that there is or was a problem?!

A straightforward post in the first place might have made for a more direct thread.

I know people who attend the TLM in our city exclusively, but I don’t hear them denigrate the OF Masses that are done at all the other parishes. And I know people who are extremely conservative and want to see more traditional practices restored (we have one parish which is OF Mass, but uses Latin, altar boys only, kneeling for Communion, etc., and a lot of these people go there), but I do NOT hear them ever criticize the other Masses.

So perhaps, as another poster on this thread said, it’s an online thing.

Do you know any of these people? Do you talk to them? Or are you expecting them to shout their views on the streets?

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

BSHoop,

Don’t let Paul’s posts get you down. They used to be a great source of annoyance to me, but I now find them amusing.

I’m sure you do.

They perfectly underscore what so many of us find “intimidating, distatesful, threatening, etc.”, about tradtional Catholicism.

It isn’t the traditional Catholicism that we find unlikeable. It’s the self-righteous, arrogant attitudes of a group of fringe tradtionalists.

The Church is wrong, you are wrong, I am wrong, the priests and bishops are wrong, etc., ad nauseum. They call you names, me names, priests and bishops names, even the Popes.

Ethel, at this point it has to be concluded you are a fundamentally dishonest person, at least in this forum.

The issue is not obedience to the Church; and I think I can demonstrate I am far more obedient to Her than you are: I support the clerics that are obedient, and you support the ones who are not.

It has been pointed out to you time and again that this is not an issue of obedience to the Church or disobedience. Many specifics are given, and a few very basic questions asked of you to clarify your viewpiont, which you have sidestepped every time - and now we’re talking about at least a half-dozen times in the last couple weeks.

So, let’s do it one more time - demonstrate one more time that your false, simplistic illogical cannot stand up to the tiniest dose of rationalism:

• If a priest or parish is guilty of a liturgical abuse condemned by Rome (the Church), and some complain about it, and some defend it, who is loyal and who is obedient?

In fact, why don’t we leave it to just the one very simple question for now and let’s see how you do.

I came to my position by being loyal to my Pope, and the last one, unlike some of the local clergy and unlike you. In the city where I live, there is a priest’s organization that came to be when we got a new Archbishop in 2002. The stated reason for the formation of this group was that the new Archbishop (unlike the old), “is blindly faithful to Rome”! Did you read that? These priests banded together to oppose the new Archbishop, and this they do. And they have you to defend them.

I am a “FRINGE TRADITIONALIST”? I, who attend a Novus Ordo Daily Mass, 2-3 times/week, as you are surely aware by now? What shamefully dishonest behavior on your part. Really. You are not going to fool too many here.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Oh please…read Daupin’s posts on here. Hootenanny (said more than once I believe) …priest’s a gas, and on and on. I had asked for examples, I could have done without all the uncharitable remarks along with them.

So much for that thread you started the other day in the name of civil conversation, huh?

Hoop,

We’re still civil.

I think the issue may be that you have not seen anything like this and thus assume the other poster is engaging in gross exaggeration. He isn’t! I’ve seen it too.

I have pondered this quite a bit and this is what I think.

When a good deal of the reverence is stripped away, when even to the celebrant it’s no longer primarily about giving glory to God, something has to fill that gaping vacuum - and that something is invariably some sort of entertainment.

Please see the comments about the local priest org setup to “balance” the Archbishop I posted in a reply to ethel. PM me if you’d like the details of this group.

You strike me as an honest, straightforward, & searching person, and I think you & I are not too far apart on these issues at all.

 

[ethelzguy]

Ethel, at this point it has to be concluded you are a fundamentally dishonest person, at least in this forum.

Ah, so I don’t buy into your Church-bashing, so I am a fundementally dishonest person. You’re too funny.

The issue is not obedience to the Church; and I think I can demonstrate I am far more obedient to Her than you are: I support the clerics that are obedient, and you support the ones who are not.

So, now you’re the “expert” on obedience to the Church, picking and choosing what parts of Church teaching and practice(s) that you choose to embrace.

• If a priest or parish is guilty of a liturgical abuse condemned by Rome (the Church), and some complain about it, and some defend it, who is loyal and who is obedient?

Unfortunately for you, Paul, Rome has not decreed you as judge and jury with regard to what is and isn’t condemned. :nope:

I am a “FRINGE TRADITIONALIST”? I, who attend a Novus Ordo Daily Mass, 2-3 times/week, as you are surely aware by now? What shamefully dishonest behavior on your part. Really. You are not going to fool too many here.

Unlike some, who are only fooling themselves that they are somehow “superior” Catholics, based on their criticisms of the Church and it’s clergy. :bigyikes:

Have a nice weekend, Paul

 

[rlg94086]

Where on earth did you get the idea that I think joy is equated with toe-tapping music and poor liturgy? If I have given this impression, I must have worded somthing very badly in one of my posts.

I certainly may have misread it, but I got the impression from this paragraph:

I really don’t like this at all and feel that if this is really what Catholicism is supposed to be, it’s pretty glum. But people on this forum tell me that Mass isn’t about “what I like” and I’m not supposed to be “entertained” at Mass, so perhaps I should try to “hate” Mass more and find it less pleasing.

Since you were drawing a conclusion that you should “hate” Mass based on others’ posts that you are not supposed to be “entertained,” it seemed logical to assume that you had a beef with Traditional Mass versus the “folk Mass” or “teen Mass” that is typical at many parishes.

I deeply apologize for the false assumption, but that is the way it read.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Have a nice weekend, Paul

Ethel, you’re an obfuscater to the core.

It seems that you loathe me because I’ve been following you around to correct the un truths you post. Just be aware that, well, I’m going to keep on keeping on despite the abuse.

I’ll be proceeding to reply to your latest post now; counter your non-sequitors and insults with substance once again, that is.

 

[giuseppeTO]

There are a lot of objections about the Mass in this and in the Liturgy and Sacrament section.

Last night as I was reading one of the many threads (I think it was about noise in Mass), it dawned on me that many of the people on this forum sound like they hate Mass and find very little good in it and suffer through it most of the time.

Or is that the point–Mass isn’t supposed to be something that we “like?”

After all, if Mass is only a “sacrifice,” I will never like it because to “like” a sacrifice is perverted. I will hate it because I hate seeing the Lord Jesus suffering and dying because of my sin.

Am I getting it now? Am I sounding less “Protestant?”

I really don’t like this at all and feel that if this is really what Catholicism is supposed to be, it’s pretty glum. But people on this forum tell me that Mass isn’t about “what I like” and I’m not supposed to be “entertained” at Mass, so perhaps I should try to “hate” Mass more and find it less pleasing.

Cat … I really think you need to separate hate of Mass from hate of abuse at Mass. Whether in the ordinary or extraordinary form, the Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of Calvary. Folks on this forum may bemoan and even criticize the way the ordinary form has been allowed to morph into something watered down and even irreverant in some cases (that bemoaning at times coming from The Holy Father himself), but one can only hate the distractions that are allowed in church - before, during, or after Mass (ie, the noise, lack of reverence for the Blessed Sacrament, dress, demeanor, etc).

 

[KingAlfred]

Right now, I crave the Mass. I haven’t attended in three weeks, due to chaotic travel schedules and family emergencies. During this time, I got into a *major conflict *with non-believers in my family. I’m desperate to get back into the House of God, kneel before The Cross, and receive life-saving spiritual nourishment.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

PAUL: Ethel, at this point it has to be concluded you are a fundamentally dishonest person, at least in this forum.

ETHEL: Ah, so I don’t buy into your Church-bashing, so I am a fundementally dishonest person. You’re too funny.

No, sir, clearly that is not what I said, and this perhaps illustrates the honesty issue we’re talking about: you don’t respond to what’s posted. You continue to attach the straw man you’ve setup yourself - that’s an easy fight for you to win.

You’re the one who bashes the Church, because you defend any cleric who disobeys the Church. Respond to that, please.

By the way, the rolling-on-the-floor-laughing, the contempt, the personal barbs, do nothing positive for your side of the debate.

PAUL: The issue is not obedience to the Church; and I think I can demonstrate I am far more obedient to Her than you are: I support the clerics that are obedient, and you support the ones who are not.

ETHEL: So, now you’re the “expert” on obedience to the Church, picking and choosing what parts of Church teaching and practice(s) that you choose to embrace.

Another straight-up non-sequitur. What parts of Church teaching and practice do I not embrace?

PAUL: - If a priest or parish is guilty of a liturgical abuse condemned by Rome (the Church), and some complain about it, and some defend it, who is loyal and who is obedient?

ETHEL: Unfortunately for you, Paul, Rome has not decreed you as judge and jury with regard to what is and isn’t condemned.

Rome has defined what is and is not condemned! Please! Is it possible you are not even aware of that? It can’t be. So, your statement is, once again, an attempt at obfuscation in the form of a personal attack.

Rome has documents describing in detail what’s licit in the liturgy and what’s not. What I said (very clearly) is that these should be respected - not me.

Do you confirm or deny that the Church has defined and condemned certain practices as liturgical abuses? Are you aware these things do take place in the U.S.?

(We left a parish last year when the (female) parish director began giving sermons with the priest just sitting there. This is an example of a condemned abuse.)

(Another quick example: the Church has decreed that on Divine Mercy Sunday the DM Image be displayed prominently. There are some, probably many, parishes in the area that never do this simple thing, and never make any mention whatsoever of the Day in the sermon or anywhere else. Who’s obedient and who is not?)

It seems either you really do have no idea what we’re talking about (which might not be your fault), little ability to absorb information and consider it logically and honestly, or are just bent on obfuscation of the whole issue.

PAUL: I am a “FRINGE TRADITIONALIST”? I, who attend a Novus Ordo Daily Mass, 2-3 times/week, as you are surely aware by now? What shamefully dishonest behavior on your part. Really. You are not going to fool too many here.

ETHEL: Unlike some, who are only fooling themselves that they are somehow “superior” Catholics, based on their criticisms of the Church and it’s clergy.

Another statement that reduces to nothing with light shone upon it. I asked you this before: are you denying that there’s any such thing as good & bad Catholics, in terms of loyalty, obedience, and practice?

Let’s start with a few simple questions to examine how the implicit assertion of this statement stands up:

• Are priests who make every effort to say reverent Masses free of the abuses outlawed by Rome in any way “better Catholics” than those who pay little or no attention - intentionally - to these things?
• Were the bishops who fought the Arian heresy in any way better or worse Catholics than those who embraced and spread it?
• Same question with regard to the teaching of the True Presence in the Eucharist during the periods when belief in this teaching waned?

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

“On the one hand, we have a liturgy which has degenerated so that it has become a show which, with momentary success for the group of liturgical fabricators, strives to render religion interesting in the wake of the frivolities of fashion and seductive moral maxims.”

This statement was made by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. It echoes exactly what several in this thread & this forum have been stating; what it is that troubles their soul regarding the form of some Masses.

If this exact statement were made in this forum, some individuals - well, probably one individual only - would tell the poster he or she were an arrogant Church-basher who probably hated the Mass.

Am I off-base here at all?

 

[ibkc]

Am I off-base here at all?

Not in the least. I’d say you’re consistently hitting home runs.

 

[ethelzguy]

Am I off-base here at all?

I see that you have assembled a nice following of Church-bashers. Good to see your shining example grow.

 

[Cat]

I certainly may have misread it, but I got the impression from this paragraph:

Since you were drawing a conclusion that you should “hate” Mass based on others’ posts that you are not supposed to be “entertained,” it seemed logical to assume that you had a beef with Traditional Mass versus the “folk Mass” or “teen Mass” that is typical at many parishes.

I deeply apologize for the false assumption, but that is the way it read.

I know well that I and others are not at Mass to be entertained. I am there to participate in the re-presentation of the Holy Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross, and to receive Him, Truly Present in Body and Soul and Divinity, into my body in Holy Communion. THAT is the reason we go to Mass. I know that it is not a “church service” or heaven forbid, a show.

I also know that Mass also involves a “Communion” with the other members of the Body of Christ, so it is appropriate to speak of a “corporate” worship experience at Mass, too.

I appreciate all of that on a spiritual and intellectual level.

But I am still a human being, and I can’t help but find some Masses more appealing than other Masses.

The Traditionalists should not berate me for this sentiment, as they themselves profess a deep love for the Latin Mass and the older styles of music and a dislike of the OF form of the Mass and the newer styles of music. Over and over I read their comments: I “feel” fulfilled at the TLM and not at the OF.

Feelings are just part of being human and therefore, they are “good,” just as our bodies are “good.” It’s not so much “entertainment” as it is feeling comfortable. It’s a “feeling” thing, and as human beings, we can’t be divorced from our feelings while we are on this earth.

I have absolutely no problem with people preferring one Mass form over another, or even various styles of music within the OF.

But it seems to me that when people have no choice about what Mass they must attend (usually due to location), is it really good to notice all the “bad things” about the Mass form that they dislike, and then to seek out (online or otherwise) whether these things are truly abuses or not?

If they are abuses, certainly I agree with taking them to the proper Church authorities and requesting a correction of the abuse. And end it there. Is there any reason to come to an online board, or to stand in the Church parking lot, and bewail the “abuse” To me, this gives the impression that the Christian “hates” Mass.

And if they are NOT abuses, but just personal preference, again, what good does it do to come to an online board or to go to acquaintances in real life and moan over what you personally cannot stomach? To me, this just implies hatred of the Mass, especially to newcomers and inquirers, and also to Catholics who are looking for an excuse to part from the Catholic Church.

Surely this is not an appropriate way for Catholics to be?

In a marriage, if one of the spouses dwells on what they hate about their spouse, inevitably the marriage will sour and in many cases, a separation (actual or emotional) will occur.

Could not the same thing happen to a Catholic who continually sighs and moans and expresses hateful sentiments about the Holy Mass? Could not the hatred that he/she expresses constantly eventually become a true hatred of the Mass itself?

Would it not be better to seek to bring your own soul and spirit and yes, emotions, into line with whatever Mass you are privileged to attend, and discipline yourself to “enjoy” the Mass and keep quiet about things that you hate?

Again, I’m NOT saying to ignore abuses. But once you’ve done your duty and talked to the proper Church authorities, why not ignore it? It’s not your responsibility to put a stop to it. And it certainly doesn’t edify the Church or other Christians to spread the word about abuse.

I just want to say that I really appreciate Dauphin’s comments on this thread. He/she is admitting that dislike of the OF is a personal problem and that they are having trouble dealing with it. I think this is probably the case with a lot of Catholics who are constantly talking hatefully about a certain Mass form, but most Catholics insist that it is NOT their personal problem.

But d

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

I see that you have assembled a nice following of Church-bashers. Good to see your shining example grow.

Yeah, myself & the Pope!

It is noted that once again you have ignored the very simple questions posed to you.

You embarrass yourself further with every post you make.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

I know well that I and others are not at Mass to be entertained. I am there to participate in the re-presentation of the Holy Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross, and to receive Him, Truly Present in Body and Soul and Divinity, into my body in Holy Communion. THAT is the reason we go to Mass. I know that it is not a “church service” or heaven forbid, a show.

Cat, nice post. I agreed with about 90% of it.

You may have some point that there are some people that gripe too much. There are people that tend towards negativism in all aspects.

(I sure get that from all the liberals put off-base by the direction our Pontiff is taking the Church now.)

 

[ethelzguy]

Yeah, myself & the Pope!

It is noted that once again you have ignored the very simple questions posed to you.

You embarrass yourself further with every post you make.

I am not going to answer your contrived and baiting questions. I’ll let you save them for your fellow Church critics. Besides, your quote came from a man who was a Cardinal at the time. He was not yet the Pope. Alas, some people insist on taking quotes from bishops and cardinals while they were bishops and cardinals, and try to make them papal commentary.

You are convinced, as noted by your post, that you are somehow on an equal footing with the Pope now.

Apparently, your idea of “civil discussion” consists of pontifical diatribes against assorted priests and bishops.

The fact of the matter is, that you have no idea whatsoever, as to what permissions may have been granted to what priests or bishops under what circumstances for anything that you complain about.

So, your rants are nothing more than dust in the wind. You are not Rome, nor are you the official interpreter of Vatican documents.

As to who is embarrased by their words, I don’t notice Rome paying any particular attention to your diatribes…or any priests or bishops either for that matter…

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

I am not going to answer your contrived and baiting questions. I’ll let you save them for your fellow Church critics. Besides, your quote came from a man who was a Cardinal at the time. He was not yet the Pope. Alas, some people insist on taking quotes from bishops and cardinals while they were bishops and cardinals, and try to make them papal commentary.

You are convinced, as noted by your post, that you are somehow on an equal footing with the Pope now.

Apparently, your idea of “civil discussion” consists of pontifical diatribes against assorted priests and bishops.

The fact of the matter is, that you have no idea whatsoever, as to what permissions may have been granted to what priests or bishops under what circumstances for anything that you complain about.

So, your rants are nothing more than dust in the wind. You are not Rome, nor are you the official interpreter of Vatican documents.

As to who is embarrased by their words, I don’t notice Rome paying any particular attention to your diatribes…or any priests or bishops either for that matter…

My wife & I had a bet that your next line would be “so, you equate yourself with the pope!” Thanks for that - you could not be more predictable.

At the very least, you’re now taking sides against certain clerics in the Church - one who is now the pope!

We know exactly what are and are not abuses because these things are public. The standards are public. And it is very logical to believe that the Pope still believes what he said as a cardinal, in his critical position as watchdog of the Church, because his behavior as Pope is completely consistent with it. And because some sort of about-face on such a core issue would be a very odd thing; there’s no evidence of it at all.

And I said that I agreed with the pope, obviously, nothing more. Your non-sequiturs - manufactured out of spite, it seems - are priceless.

‘Debate’ with you is like watching a puppy chase its tale.

 

[rlg94086]

I know well that I and others are not at Mass to be entertained. I am there to participate in the re-presentation of the Holy Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross, and to receive Him, Truly Present in Body and Soul and Divinity, into my body in Holy Communion. THAT is the reason we go to Mass. I know that it is not a “church service” or heaven forbid, a show.

I also know that Mass also involves a “Communion” with the other members of the Body of Christ, so it is appropriate to speak of a “corporate” worship experience at Mass, too.

I appreciate all of that on a spiritual and intellectual level.

But I am still a human being, and I can’t help but find some Masses more appealing than other Masses.

The Traditionalists should not berate me for this sentiment, as they themselves profess a deep love for the Latin Mass and the older styles of music and a dislike of the OF form of the Mass and the newer styles of music. Over and over I read their comments: I “feel” fulfilled at the TLM and not at the OF.

Feelings are just part of being human and therefore, they are “good,” just as our bodies are “good.” It’s not so much “entertainment” as it is feeling comfortable. It’s a “feeling” thing, and as human beings, we can’t be divorced from our feelings while we are on this earth.

I have absolutely no problem with people preferring one Mass form over another, or even various styles of music within the OF.

But it seems to me that when people have no choice about what Mass they must attend (usually due to location), is it really good to notice all the “bad things” about the Mass form that they dislike, and then to seek out (online or otherwise) whether these things are truly abuses or not?

If they are abuses, certainly I agree with taking them to the proper Church authorities and requesting a correction of the abuse. And end it there. Is there any reason to come to an online board, or to stand in the Church parking lot, and bewail the “abuse” To me, this gives the impression that the Christian “hates” Mass.

And if they are NOT abuses, but just personal preference, again, what good does it do to come to an online board or to go to acquaintances in real life and moan over what you personally cannot stomach? To me, this just implies hatred of the Mass, especially to newcomers and inquirers, and also to Catholics who are looking for an excuse to part from the Catholic Church.

Surely this is not an appropriate way for Catholics to be?

In a marriage, if one of the spouses dwells on what they hate about their spouse, inevitably the marriage will sour and in many cases, a separation (actual or emotional) will occur.

Could not the same thing happen to a Catholic who continually sighs and moans and expresses hateful sentiments about the Holy Mass? Could not the hatred that he/she expresses constantly eventually become a true hatred of the Mass itself?

Would it not be better to seek to bring your own soul and spirit and yes, emotions, into line with whatever Mass you are privileged to attend, and discipline yourself to “enjoy” the Mass and keep quiet about things that you hate?

Again, I’m NOT saying to ignore abuses. But once you’ve done your duty and talked to the proper Church authorities, why not ignore it? It’s not your responsibility to put a stop to it. And it certainly doesn’t edify the Church or other Christians to spread the word about abuse.

I just want to say that I really appreciate Dauphin’s comments on this thread. He/she is admitting that dislike of the OF is a personal problem and that they are having trouble dealing with it. I think this is probably the case with a lot of Catholics who are constantly talking hatefully about a certain Mass form, but most Catholics insist that it is NOT their personal problem.

But d

Hi Cat,

I understand what you are saying, and I even agree with some of it. However, I disagree that coming onto CAF and expressing the importance of returning to a more reverent Mass is a negative. I think that discussion of these issues is important. It is helpful to liturgical reform IMO. I think that the response to Vatican II certainly went too far in many areas.

Now, that said, I wish people weren’t as nasty on both sides. The people who prefer the OF that insult the “traditionalists” are just as bad as the “traditionalists” who take their dislike of the OF to an extreme. As you and I both know, while the music may vary, the famous clown Masses are a very rare oddity, so there is no reason to equate all OF Masses to those exceptions. Likewise, when the OF enthusiasts say things like “priests mumbling in a foreign language people don’t understand,” it is very demeaning to the Holy Mass that was celebrated for centuries.

I also disagree with your statement about people hating the Mass, primarily because it is obvious that the vast majority of the Catholic participants on CAF love the Mass. Those who prefer the OF love the OF of the Mass. Those who prefer the EF love the EF form of the Mass. People who prefer the EF don’t “hate the Mass” due to their disappointment with the OF, any more than the OF enthusiasts “hate the Mass” due to their dislike of the EF.

I am very pleased with the reforms happening under Pope Benedict XVI. I hope it continues, the young, more traditionally-minded priests help in these reforms as a lot of the older, less orthodox priests retire.

 

[snhs]

…
I appreciate all of that on a spiritual and intellectual level.

But I am still a human being, and I can’t help but find some Masses more appealing than other Masses.

The Traditionalists should not berate me for this sentiment, as they themselves profess a deep love for the Latin Mass and the older styles of music and a dislike of the OF form of the Mass and the newer styles of music. Over and over I read their comments: I “feel” fulfilled at the TLM and not at the OF.

Feelings are just part of being human and therefore, they are “good,” just as our bodies are “good.” It’s not so much “entertainment” as it is feeling comfortable. It’s a “feeling” thing, and as human beings, we can’t be divorced from our feelings while we are on this earth.

I have absolutely no problem with people preferring one Mass form over another, or even various styles of music within the OF.

But it seems to me that when people have no choice about what Mass they must attend (usually due to location), is it really good to notice all the “bad things” about the Mass form that they dislike, and then to seek out (online or otherwise) whether these things are truly abuses or not?

If they are abuses, certainly I agree with taking them to the proper Church authorities and requesting a correction of the abuse. And end it there. Is there any reason to come to an online board, or to stand in the Church parking lot, and bewail the “abuse” To me, this gives the impression that the Christian “hates” Mass.

And if they are NOT abuses, but just personal preference, again, what good does it do to come to an online board or to go to acquaintances in real life and moan over what you personally cannot stomach? To me, this just implies hatred of the Mass, especially to newcomers and inquirers, and also to Catholics who are looking for an excuse to part from the Catholic Church.

…

Could not the same thing happen to a Catholic who continually sighs and moans and expresses hateful sentiments about the Holy Mass? Could not the hatred that he/she expresses constantly eventually become a true hatred of the Mass itself?

Would it not be better to seek to bring your own soul and spirit and yes, emotions, into line with whatever Mass you are privileged to attend, and discipline yourself to “enjoy” the Mass and keep quiet about things that you hate?

Again, I’m NOT saying to ignore abuses. But once you’ve done your duty and talked to the proper Church authorities, why not ignore it? It’s not your responsibility to put a stop to it. And it certainly doesn’t edify the Church or other Christians to spread the word about abuse.

I just want to say that I really appreciate Dauphin’s comments on this thread. He/she is admitting that dislike of the OF is a personal problem and that they are having trouble dealing with it. I think this is probably the case with a lot of Catholics who are constantly talking hatefully about a certain Mass form, but most Catholics insist that it is NOT their personal problem.

I’ve removed the start because I agree with it completely.

You are still a human being, presumably a human being who should be able to appreciate the Mass on a spiritual and intellectual level. An emotional understanding of the Mass, or an understanding which accepts the other sides as a given and whose response is focused purely on an emotional basis, fundamentally misunderstands the nature of the Mass. The Mass goes beyond what human emotions are capable of comprehending, beyond indeed what all human faculties are able to comprehend in and of themselves.

When someone goes to a TLM which is conducted faithfully and according to the rubrics it is immersive, even at the most basic level of the low Mass. Emotionally there is a deep connection, as this is the Mass said in almost exactly the same way our parents, grandparents and countless Saints would have known it. But if you took the time to look at many of the posts on it very few people give that emotive part as their main answer. The feeling of fulfilment, which you seem so dismissive of, does not come from just liking the Latin. In the TLM the nature of the Sacrifice is, to many people, better expressed. Perhaps in your travels on the Liturgy and Sacraments forum you’ll also have noticed complaints about the new translation, people complaining that a simile is introduced for the Holy Spirit coming down on the gifts, despite the fact that it is what the Latin text actually says. By removing so much symbolism, both verbal and visual, from the Mass the NO can be found at an intellectual level and indeed at a spiritual level to be less fulfilling. You don’t get the same fulfilment out of a salad as a four course meal, the same is true of Mass.

Have you ever been to a TLM? After all Pope Benedict has said that there are two forms of the Latin Rite, Cardinal Hoyos confirmed that the eventual idea is for every Parish to have a TLM. Every Parish should be able to celebrate the fullness of the Latin Rite, and that means within their home Parish not in one or two Churches for their whole Diocese.

Feelings are not always good. If someone is facing martyrdom and feels fear and it causes them to flee from or throw off the burden of their cross it may not be good, for example. Similarly feeling comfortable is not always desirable, it may be possible for someone to feel comfortable while living in sin with their partner. If our feelings lead us to sin then we should do everything within our power to master them.

It seems better for someone to seek out the evidence for their view point before going to a Priest and possibly falsely accusing them of something. Most of the posts you see are not here to bash their home Parish, they want help in finding what the Church’s actual position is and the necessary documents to demonstrate as such if need be. If I saw what I thought was an abuse in my local Parish there aren’t many people in the area with a good knowledge of the rules governing the Church’s liturgy, many are in the same position. Forums such as this give access to such knowledge, just as the internet as a whole gives voice to protests/widespread problems which would not be heard if it was only a few people noticing them in their own Church with no awareness the same thing is going on in many other Churches. For example I noticed someone asking about the LT model of teaching, one of the first posters provided a summary of their experience with it and referred them to the programme they were now using which they were getting a better response to and had more substance to it than the LT equivalent.

And if they continue then what? As Catholics we should ensure that we do everything we can to see that the Liturgy is practised as the Church wishes. At times this may mean writing to the Vatican or a Congregation to deal with a problem, or it may mean having to hire the services of a Canon Lawyer and appeal a decision through the appropriate channels. For example, if a group of 50 people on a Parish write to their Priest and then their Bishop requesting the TLM they should be heard, they are entitled to ask for it. If nothing is done about it then they may wish to send a copy of the petition to PCED for their records and continue to gather signatures.

You forget, “hate the sin love the sinner”. I’m more than happy to say that I despise seeing abuses in Catholic Masses that doesn’t mean I hate the Mass or the Church, or even the person responsible, because of it.

What if those newcomers come from a traditional Anglican or Orthodox background and expect Gregorian Chant, thuribles and sanctus bells? They’ll get a bit of a shock if they attend most Catholic Masses. Catholics who wish to part from the Church will find the reasons they want without much hassle, I don’t think a couple of threads on here is going to make much difference and if it does there are many more to redress the balance.

Your concern is touching. However I do not believe that hating murder and declaiming its evil at every turn shall necessarily lead me to hate murderers.

It could, it could also turn into an even greater love of the Mass. Most people do not come on here to have a laugh about how horrific the Mass at St. X.'s Parish was last week, they come on because they are genuinely concerned that the practice is inappropriate for Mass. Similarly those who come on more to answer questions do so in order to aid those less knowledgeable and put forward what the Church actually says and teaches about it to help stop abuses wherever possible. And those who come on for reasons in between again do so to seek truth, something all the more important because of the state of society today.

Did I miss the thread where someone told us that they jumped up in the middle of Mass and shouted out a correction in order to bring about the immediate cessation of an abuse?

As Catholics is it not our duty to do what is right? Does that not extend to doing what is right where the Mass is concerned?

It is partly their problem. But equally it is a problem for the Church. Just as those who hate/don’t like the TLM for often completely irrational and misinformed reasons are both their own and the Church’s problem. The Church has called for a “mutual enrichment” between the two forms, that can only happen when there is openness both to what the Church wants and to the two expressions of the Latin Rite.

In the meantime perhaps we should start a poll for ‘Spirit of VII’ devotees to have their own forum where they can go talk about their emotions, bemoan Fr. Y wearing a biretta, ‘turning their back’ on them and how mean that old Benedict is to have told them they can’t sing Yaweh during Mass any more.