Do you hate Mass?

[Cat]

Your blaming the Norvus Ordo Mass for irreverence and sacreliges is about the same as a person blaming the Church’s requirement for the celibacy of priests as the cause of the sexual abuse that was happening.

The Norvus Ordo is a reverent Mass. It is a shame that there are liturgical abusers performing Clown Masses and Polka Masses but it is not the result of the Norvus Ordo. Watch EWTN’s NO Mass. It’s beautiful.

Just a quick comment. I’ve read a little about polka Masses, and from what I understand, they are not irreverent at all. It is a cultural thing.

We wouldn’t call Masses celebrated in Puerto Rico irreverent because guitars are used and the singing goes on and ON (a Puerto Rican friend of mine says that she misses this in U.S. Masses), and because the people rush up to the front in a crowd to receive Jesus in the Holy Communion (she told me she was surprised that people in the U.S. just sit there and stroll up so slowly–in her country, it would be considered irreverent to just there and wait patiently to receive the Lord!).

None of this would be considered irreverent, but just part of cultural differences.

And that’s what I’ve heard about polka Masses. Supposedly they are very moving to those who are part of that culture.

I couldn’t see it myself. I’m not much of a polka appreciater!

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

"Pax et Caritas:

The subject of the thread deals with why people are disgusted by the Mass. I gave my answer.

Do you deny that the reason people feel disgust is because of the irreverence and sacrileges that take place in the Novus Ordo Mass. If so, what is your explanation?

And, are you implying that you do not feel disgusted by abuses and sacrileges? If not, there is something wrong.

Your blaming the Norvus Ordo Mass for irreverence and sacreliges is about the same as a person blaming the Church’s requirement for the celibacy of priests as the cause of the sexual abuse that was happening.

You must have misunderstood me. I didn’t blame the Novus Ordo for abuses; I blamed the abuses for causing people to be disgusted, which is the topic of the thread.

 

[Cat]

You must have misunderstood me. I didn’t blame the Novus Ordo for abuses; I blamed the abuses for causing people to be disgusted, which is the topic of the thread.

Actually I did not intend for the topic to be disgust with the Mass, but hatred. Disgust seems to me to be a less intense word. Someone can be disgusted with something but not hate it.

What I questioned in my OP is the appearance that some Catholics give of actually hating the Mass, and although at a human level, I find this “hatred” offensive, I questioned whether that “hatred” is actually justifiable Catholic theology due to the “bloody” nature of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the fact that the sacrifice was required to redeem sinful mankind.

I think that many posters have given some good answers to my queries and I would like to request that the Moderators close this thread before it becomes another debate about OF and EF. Thanks. (I will report this post so that the Mods will spot my request.)

 

[Lee_M]

Other parts of this post smack of archeologism, condemned by several popes. This the notion that anything that is older is automatically better. That isn’t so.

The earliest Christians needed a very simple liturgy because Masses were said in secret, under penalty of death frequently. Also, there simply had not yet been time for liturgy to develop naturally.

The NO did not develop. It was not natural. It was written by a committee, as our Pope said.

You just got done telling us the things you don’t like about TLM - the reasons the NO is better - and now you said you’ve nothing against it? It’s one or the other.

Almost nobody here - nobody who’s posted in this thread - believes the new Mass to be anything close to ‘unholy’. So, you are setting up a straw man there. I attend the NO more than TLM. And yet I find the form, prayers, and rubrics of TLM objectively superior. But, these are ‘practical’ matters - I’d still give my life to be able to attend the NO and only the NO.

By the way, I pointed out to you previously that St. Pio preferred the Latin Mass. You did not respond in a meaningful fashion. Did you happen to look into that?

In that post, I never pointed anything out about the TLM that I do not like. You’re putting words into my mouth. People have the right to attend a TLM. But to say that it is a superior Liturgy over the NO is a matter of opinion.

Also how does this post smack of archeologism? I stated what one of the reasons for the change in the Liturgy was. And that was a reason whether you accept it or not.

 

[NeedImprovement]

You must have misunderstood me. I didn’t blame the Novus Ordo for abuses; I blamed the abuses for causing people to be disgusted, which is the topic of the thread.

Just a passing observation, but I would think Lee M’s misunderstanding your point is quite “understandable” since it was expressed in an earlier post this way:

No. The Mass is supposed to be a holy reverent event. A prayer. The reason people find the Mass hard to tolerate is because the Novus Ordo Mass has become an irreverent and often sacreligious event… .

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Just a passing observation, but I would think Lee M’s misunderstanding your point is quite “understandable” since it was expressed in an earlier post this way:

He says much worse than that on another thread, even to the point of saying the Church itself is worse off than when the Arian heresy was being fought. (I am talking about Pax, not Lee M )
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Lee_M]

There’s no evidence, none, that there were abuses anywhere near the scope and seriousness we see today. Please cite any refs you have.

I stand corrected on the abuses happening in the Mass before the Second Vatican Council. There was an article I read on abuses of the liturgy and the author stated that there were liturgical abuses before V2 but he did not list any sources so I cannot back that up. After research I could not find any prior abuses that were happening. Since I cannot find anything, I’ll retract my statement.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Just a passing observation, but I would think Lee M’s misunderstanding your point is quite “understandable” since it was expressed in an earlier post this way:

Pax: Pax et Caritas: No. The Mass is supposed to be a holy reverent event. A prayer. The reason people find the Mass hard to tolerate is because the Novus Ordo Mass has become an irreverent and often sacreligious event… ."

But doesn’t my post simply annunciate what we hear on the message board all the time? How is it wrong for me to state what so many others - who attend that Mass - say?

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

He says much worse than that on another thread, even to the point of saying the Church itself is worse off than when the Arian heresy was being fought. (I am talking about Pax, not Lee M )
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

What’s wrong with saying the state of the Church today is worse than during the Arian crisis? When has the Church every said it isn’t?

And should those who lived at the time of the Arian crisis be offended by your claiming that their crisis was worse than ours?

 

[NeedImprovement]

He says much worse than that on another thread, even to the point of saying the Church itself is worse off than when the Arian heresy was being fought. (I am talking about Pax, not Lee M )
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Sometimes our criticisms, especially the well-intentioned ones can actually create a wound in the Church’s unity.

St. John Vianney advised us to do what we could to avoid speaking against priests (but to always pray for them should a weakness of theirs become apparent to us). Speaking against the Mass is kind of the next level of the same subject. But to concede a very imporatnt point…yes abuses do exist I’ve seen and had to pray through some myself.

Years ago my dear dad told me, “Nothing is more evil than good in excess.” I didn’t know what the heck he was talking about then. Now, I think I’m begining to have an inkling of what he meant.

 

[NeedImprovement]

What’s wrong with saying the state of the Church today is worse than during the Arian crisis? When has the Church every said it isn’t?

And should those who lived at the time of the Arian crisis be offended by your claiming that their crisis was worse than ours?

There’s no denying that practically the entire world is living an inversion of moral values. Also who could deny that in conjunction with the world there is a general confusion today in the Church Herself ? It would just seem to me that once these things are pointed out, I would need to be cautious so as not to aggravate the Church’s wounds.

We need to always preserve hope. I never see mentioned after or together with these criticisms the fact that adoration chapels (many of them perpetual) have sprung up all over North America…Could these be harbingers of a new “springtime” in the Church ?

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

We need to always preserve hope. I never see mentioned after or together with these criticisms the fact that adoration chapels (many of them perpetual) have sprung up all over North America…Could these be harbingers of a new “springtime” in the Church ?

A very good point. I would also point out that in my city, there are over 40 parishes with perpetual adoration. These are Novus Ordo parishes. Yet according to some, we are leading the people to ruin. I say over and over, I have been seeing a fervor in our people that was not present years ago. Something must be happening that is correct.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[stbruno]

I have to agree with the previous posters. While our parish does not have perpetual adoration, we have weekly all day adoration on Thursdays, something that was not done 10 years ago. So there is a resurgence for it in our local community, so much so that we don’t even need to have people assigned to specific times because there are always at least 4 to a dozen people during the daytime hours, hour after hour. God is good. There’s no denying that.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Never forget the saying “lex orandi lex credendi”, which means, the way we pray is the way we believe. What this means is that an irreverent and often sacreligious Mass …

Also would a joyful mass mean that we believe in being joyful? Would a mass where community is emphasized mean that we believe in being close to our neighbours?

Does a somber mass where we don’t talk to our neighbours make us believe that we should not be thankful to God and not love our neighbours as ourselves? Or does “lex orandi” only work in one direction?

 

[giuseppeTO]

Sometimes our criticisms, especially the well-intentioned ones can actually create a wound in the Church’s unity.

St. John Vianney advised us to do what we could to avoid speaking against priests (but to always pray for them should a weakness of theirs become apparent to us). Speaking against the Mass is kind of the next level of the same subject. But to concede a very imporatnt point…yes abuses do exist I’ve seen and had to pray through some myself.

Years ago my dear dad told me, “Nothing is more evil than good in excess.” I didn’t know what the heck he was talking about then. Now, I think I’m begining to have an inkling of what he meant.

Hmmm - the argument I am sure you have seen for those who have chosen to leave their Novus Ordo Mass in favor of exclusively assisting at a TLM is to stay in the diocesan chruch and fight the shenanigans.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Also would a joyful mass mean that we believe in being joyful? Would a mass where community is emphasized mean that we believe in being close to our neighbours?

Does a somber mass where we don’t talk to our neighbours make us believe that we should not be thankful to God and not love our neighbours as ourselves? Or does “lex orandi” only work in one direction?

Neil,

All Masses should be joyful in the proper season. How can you pray or sing the Gloria without being joyful? During Lent, the Mass should be more sombre and reflective.

The Mass is the unbloody sacrifice of Calvary - it has never been a forum to emphasize community (until recently). It should be all about the Sacrifice of Christ.

Finally, I’m not sure how the habit of talking to our neighbors has ever become part of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. That is what PTA meetings and donuts and coffee after Mass is for.

Over the last few decades we have turned the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass into a happy clappy feel-good meeting. God forbid that the pentultimate moment of the Transubstantiation should take our breath away.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

"DeaconEd:

He says much worse than that on another thread, even to the point of saying the Church itself is worse off than when the Arian heresy was being fought. (I am talking about Pax, not Lee M )
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

What’s wrong with saying the state of the Church today is worse than during the Arian crisis? When has the Church every said it isn’t?

To add to what I wrote above, I will quote a member of the magisterium of the Church who said substantially the same thing: That the current crisis is similar to that of the Arian crisis, only worse - since it is effecting the entire Church

In his book Athanasius and the Church of our time, Bishop Graber wrote the following:

**Bishop Rudolph Graber of Regensburg: **“What happened over 1600 years ago [at the time of the Arian heresy] is repeating itself today, but with two or three differences: Alexandria [the patriarchal see of St. Athanasius] is today the whole universal Church, the stability of which is being shaken, and what was undertaken at that time by means of physical force and cruelty is now being transferred to a different level. Exile is replaced by banishment into silence of being ignored; killing, by assassination of character.” (Athanasius and the Church of Our Time, p. 23).

If you disagree with this member of the magisterium who is in union with the Pope, that is your choice; but I agree with him completely.

 

[NeedImprovement]

… I would also point out that in my city, there are over 40 parishes with perpetual adoration. These are Novus Ordo parishes…Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Over 40 parishes…AWESOME !

 

[giuseppeTO]

Over 40 parishes…AWESOME !

This is definitely encouraging but probably not enough to turn the tide that will witness the demise of the Novus Ordo in the next 30 years since it does not appear to be translating into vocations to the degree necessary to sustain the diocesan structure.

In our archdiocese (one of the largest on the East Coast of the US), there was one ordination in the last two years. Contrast that to most Traditional (both regularized and SSPX) seminaries (those that exclusively use the EF), most of which are bursting at the seams with seminarians. My son is in a seminary where there are 3 seminarians to each room and they can’t expand quickly enough.

Anecdotally, and in line with the topic of the thread, my wife and I ran into a family from my wife’s parish (my wife is the guitar Mass leader in a Novus Ordo church) while we were out to dinner. The wife, speaking of her pre-teen and teenage children, said to my wife “my kids are totally bored with the 9am (non-musical) Mass but they love the 5PM Guitar Mass.” My wife slightly cringed at the comment that anyone would be bored with Christ’s sacrifice. But there you have it … the “community” needs to be entertained by music that is fun to sing, they need to interact with one another during the Mass, the sermons need to be short and interesting, and Masses can’t be too long. This is not the breeding ground of vocations.

So, if you hate the Mass, just wait a bit and you may not have anything to hate sooner than you think.

 

[ethelzguy]

the sermons need to be short and interesting, and Masses can’t be too long.

What is wrong with a short, but interesting homily? I would think that would have more impact, than some drawn-out boring drone. How would long, drawn-out homilies foster vocations?