Do you have a good defense for this?

[SpeakKindly]

"The key to remember is that God could have created no original sin, and God could have failed to create a world with horrendous natural and social evils. When you attempt to put the blame on humankind, you need to consider if humans and only humans can actually be blamed for this world existing rather than another. They could not though since God played a part in that God created this world. So, God is at fault for creating sin, God is at fault for creating a world with evils, and God is at fault for creating these worlds as punishment for non evil acts being committed. I add the last point because implicit in your response is that humankind did something wrong. Well they did not. The story of Adam and Eve contains no evil being done at all. It is necessary that people know an act is evil, or are unreasonable in not knowing it is evil in order for their committing it to be evil.

Neither Adam and Eve knew eating the fruit was evil, and since they had no concept of it they were perfectly reasonable in not knowing. Consequently, they did no evil. Disobeying God is irrelevant because they had no obligation to obey God at all. Obeying God would be the same as obeying the devil, or one another. You use worlds like disobey and rebellion, but neither even apply to the creation myth. Even if they did, it would certainly be wrong of God to punish a potential infinite number of people for the acts of two people. You can dance around the fact that God created all evil, and God created death, destruction and suffering, but your pretending doesn’t make God not the one to blame. "

 

[TxGodfollower]

"The key to remember is that God could have created no original sin, and God could have failed to create a world with horrendous natural and social evils. When you attempt to put the blame on humankind, you need to consider if humans and only humans can actually be blamed for this world existing rather than another. They could not though since God played a part in that God created this world. So, God is at fault for creating sin, God is at fault for creating a world with evils, and God is at fault for creating these worlds as punishment for non evil acts being committed. I add the last point because implicit in your response is that humankind did something wrong. Well they did not. The story of Adam and Eve contains no evil being done at all. It is necessary that people know an act is evil, or are unreasonable in not knowing it is evil in order for their committing it to be evil.

Neither Adam and Eve knew eating the fruit was evil, and since they had no concept of it they were perfectly reasonable in not knowing. Consequently, they did no evil. Disobeying God is irrelevant because they had no obligation to obey God at all. Obeying God would be the same as obeying the devil, or one another. You use worlds like disobey and rebellion, but neither even apply to the creation myth. Even if they did, it would certainly be wrong of God to punish a potential infinite number of people for the acts of two people. You can dance around the fact that God created all evil, and God created death, destruction and suffering, but your pretending doesn’t make God not the one to blame. "

You can’t blame the actions of a creation on the creator. Is Karl Benz (or whoever invented the automobile) responsible for the thousands of people who die from accidents every year?

 

[ahs]

"The key to remember is that God could have created no original sin

He didn’t create original sin. He gave a command to Adam and Eve, and they disobeyed Him. They made a choice to sin…God didn’t make them do it.

…and God could have failed to create a world with horrendous natural and social evils.

God didn’t create such a horrible world. He created a perfect world and gave His creatures (us) freedom to choose Him or to reject Him. In choosing to reject Him, our first parents set off a series of events that result in the sinful world you see today. God is not responsible for that, we are in our choice to sin. Praise be to God, though, that He still wants to save us and take us to Himself.

When you attempt to put the blame on humankind, you need to consider if humans and only humans can actually be blamed for this world existing rather than another.

No you don’t. You only need to consider the fact that God gave us free will, and we chose against Him, resulting in sin by our own choice. Whether the world’s existence is to be “blamed” on God is not only a strawman, but a ridiculous one at that.

They could not though since God played a part in that God created this world. So, God is at fault for creating sin, God is at fault for creating a world with evils, and God is at fault for creating these worlds as punishment for non evil acts being committed.

No, God is “at fault” (this is really ridiculous) for giving us life and having mercy on us, despite our choice to reject Him and commit sin…every single day. We are not worthy of this Love He chooses to give us, yet He still offers it freely to us sinners. The sin is ours, and ours alone. Praise be to God that He is so merciful to us sinners.

I add the last point because implicit in your response is that humankind did something wrong.

Human kind DID do something wrong. Humans wanted to be more than what God created them to be and in their pride disobeyed God. The great irony is that humans were already created “like God”…in His image and likeness…but they fell for the lie of the devil and threw it all away. Fortunately for us, God’s mercy is boundless and He still calls us to Him to this day.

Well they did not. The story of Adam and Eve contains no evil being done at all. It is necessary that people know an act is evil, or are unreasonable in not knowing it is evil in order for their committing it to be evil.

God said, “don’t”, and they disobeyed, knowingly and deliberately. They knew, they chose, they committed evil. The evil is in rejecting God and disobeying their Creator.

Neither Adam and Eve knew eating the fruit was evil, and since they had no concept of it they were perfectly reasonable in not knowing.

Yes they did. God said they may not eat of it, and they chose to eat of it. Deliberate disobedience, with a consequence that they also knew ahead of time (…“if you eat of it you shall surely die…”). They knew, they chose, they sinned (committed evil).

Consequently, they did no evil. Disobeying God is irrelevant because they had no obligation to obey God at all. Obeying God would be the same as obeying the devil, or one another.

They were obliged to obey their Creator because He is their Creator. They were also obliged to obey because He forwarned them of the consequence, and thereby their very conscience was informed, making them liable. The devil did not create them…another strawman…and another ridiculous one.

You use worlds like disobey and rebellion,

Because that’s what it is.

…but neither even apply to the creation myth.

They apply to the reality of Creation. If you believe it to be a myth, then your entire argument is just a giant logical fallacy. Before you can begin to argue against anything relevant to original sin, if your position is that it’s all just a myth, you are going to have to first disprove God. And I don’t think you can.

Even if they did, it would certainly be wrong of God to punish a potential infinite number of people for the acts of two people.

Why would that be wrong/unjust? Whose definition of “wrong” or “just” are we using, and why is that relevant? By what objective standard are we judging the rightness or wrongness of something? You are going to have an impossible time arguing this while rejecting the notion of a Creator…because then it’s just your opinion vs. mine.

You can dance around the fact that God created all evil, and God created death, destruction and suffering, but your pretending doesn’t make God not the one to blame. "

And you can continue arguing logical fallacies, but it doesn’t mean anything because before you can even begin to argue whether God was right or not, you must first accept that God exists and created all things…thereby conceding that God indeed is the Divine Creator…thereby making mankind answerable to Him…thereby demolishing your entire argument.

 

[fhansen]

Moral evil, aka “sin”, is committed by humans, by virtue of nothing more or less than the possession and abuse of free will. And that’s the cause of the greatest misery in our world. This comes from our valuing lesser goods over the greatest good, God. And this is why relationship with God is essential, is obligatory, is just-because injustice inevitably prevails otherwise, as we can see in our newspapers every day and often enough in our own relationships.

Original sin, as an inherited legacy, means, in simplest terms, that man is separated from God. And man’s job is simply to find his way back to God-impossible on our own since we’re not even aware of His existence unless, perhaps, for a vague and distant hope or assumption. And we believe God has provided the means and an impetus to find Him, or for us to be found by Him. But He never forces us into this state of justice; our justice comes only as we freely embrace it, IOW. Man is incomplete to the extent that he’s not in communion with God.

 

[SpeakKindly]

He didn’t create original sin. He gave a command to Adam and Eve, and they disobeyed Him. They made a choice to sin…God didn’t make them do it.

God didn’t create such a horrible world. He created a perfect world and gave His creatures (us) freedom to choose Him or to reject Him. In choosing to reject Him, our first parents set off a series of events that result in the sinful world you see today. God is not responsible for that, we are in our choice to sin. Praise be to God, though, that He still wants to save us and take us to Himself.

No you don’t. You only need to consider the fact that God gave us free will, and we chose against Him, resulting in sin by our own choice. Whether the world’s existence is to be “blamed” on God is not only a strawman, but a ridiculous one at that.

No, God is “at fault” (this is really ridiculous) for giving us life and having mercy on us, despite our choice to reject Him and commit sin…every single day. We are not worthy of this Love He chooses to give us, yet He still offers it freely to us sinners. The sin is ours, and ours alone. Praise be to God that He is so merciful to us sinners.

Human kind DID do something wrong. Humans wanted to be more than what God created them to be and in their pride disobeyed God. The great irony is that humans were already created “like God”…in His image and likeness…but they fell for the lie of the devil and threw it all away. Fortunately for us, God’s mercy is boundless and He still calls us to Him to this day.

God said, “don’t”, and they disobeyed, knowingly and deliberately. They knew, they chose, they committed evil. The evil is in rejecting God and disobeying their Creator.

Yes they did. God said they may not eat of it, and they chose to eat of it. Deliberate disobedience, with a consequence that they also knew ahead of time (…“if you eat of it you shall surely die…”). They knew, they chose, they sinned (committed evil).

They were obliged to obey their Creator because He is their Creator. They were also obliged to obey because He forwarned them of the consequence, and thereby their very conscience was informed, making them liable. The devil did not create them…another strawman…and another ridiculous one.

Because that’s what it is.

They apply to the reality of Creation. If you believe it to be a myth, then your entire argument is just a giant logical fallacy. Before you can begin to argue against anything relevant to original sin, if your position is that it’s all just a myth, you are going to have to first disprove God. And I don’t think you can.

Why would that be wrong/unjust? Whose definition of “wrong” or “just” are we using, and why is that relevant? By what objective standard are we judging the rightness or wrongness of something? You are going to have an impossible time arguing this while rejecting the notion of a Creator…because then it’s just your opinion vs. mine.

And you can continue arguing logical fallacies, but it doesn’t mean anything because before you can even begin to argue whether God was right or not, you must first accept that God exists and created all things…thereby conceding that God indeed is the Divine Creator…thereby making mankind answerable to Him…thereby demolishing your entire argument.

Thanks, I used hope you don’t mind, it was a good defense to the silly argument.

 

[DavidFilmer]

[a great reply

Well said!
[/quote]

 

[ahs]

Thanks, I used hope you don’t mind, it was a good defense to the silly argument.

I don’t mind at all.

 

[Randy_Carson]

"The key to remember is that God could have created no original sin, and God could have failed to create a world with horrendous natural and social evils. When you attempt to put the blame on humankind, you need to consider if humans and only humans can actually be blamed for this world existing rather than another. They could not though since God played a part in that God created this world. So, God is at fault for creating sin, God is at fault for creating a world with evils, and God is at fault for creating these worlds as punishment for non evil acts being committed. I add the last point because implicit in your response is that humankind did something wrong. Well they did not. The story of Adam and Eve contains no evil being done at all. It is necessary that people know an act is evil, or are unreasonable in not knowing it is evil in order for their committing it to be evil.

Neither Adam and Eve knew eating the fruit was evil, and since they had no concept of it they were perfectly reasonable in not knowing. Consequently, they did no evil. Disobeying God is irrelevant because they had no obligation to obey God at all. Obeying God would be the same as obeying the devil, or one another. You use worlds like disobey and rebellion, but neither even apply to the creation myth.

Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

They knew. :sad_yes:

Even if they did, it would certainly be wrong of God to punish a potential infinite number of people for the acts of two people. You can dance around the fact that God created all evil, and God created death, destruction and suffering, but your pretending doesn’t make God not the one to blame. "

Are you an American? I’ll assume you are.

At some point in history, your forefathers made the decision to move to the New World, to America. That decision has had a profound affect on all of their descendants who came after them, agreed?

Adam and Eve chose to disobey God, and they separated themselves from Him. That separation has had a profound impact on the rest of us.

 

[Ignatius]

Neither Adam and Eve knew eating the fruit was . . . . l

You need to re-read that. There is not doubt that they were told clearly.

Disobeying God is irrelevant because they had no obligation to obey God at all.

Again, you need to do a little better scholarship. The only obligation they had was Obey God.

 

[ahs]

Genesis 2:16-17
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

They knew. :sad_yes:

Are you an American? I’ll assume you are.

At some point in history, your forefathers made the decision to move to the New World, to America. That decision has had a profound affect on all of their descendants who came after them, agreed?

Adam and Eve chose to disobey God, and they separated themselves from Him. That separation has had a profound impact on the rest of us.

You need to re-read that. There is not doubt that they were told clearly.

Again, you need to do a little better scholarship. The only obligation they had was Obey God.

FWIW, I think the initial post was not the OP’s material…but a quote from someone with whom he was arguing. But yes, the person making the assertions needs to do a little reading on the facts.

 

[Frankenfurter]

I would note that the question implies a childish notion of God. God as a punisher for wrong-doing. And since, as the argument goes, Adam and Eve were innocent, it is not fair for God to punish them, and hence all of us.

What if instead, God granted them authority. Authority to take part in creation. They are no longer like little children, instead their actions have consequences. Consequences that cannot be undone.

The real power that God has given us, to be part of creation is awesome. Ask any doctor, or engineer, or designer, etc.

So is our power to screw it up though.

I take comforting knowing that he knew we would screw it up, and so we have Jesus and the church.

 

[steve_b]

"The key to remember is that God could have created no original sin, and God could have failed to create a world with horrendous natural and social evils. When you attempt to put the blame on humankind, you need to consider if humans and only humans can actually be blamed for this world existing rather than another. They could not though since God played a part in that God created this world. So, God is at fault for creating sin, God is at fault for creating a world with evils, and God is at fault for creating these worlds as punishment for non evil acts being committed. I add the last point because implicit in your response is that humankind did something wrong. Well they did not. The story of Adam and Eve contains no evil being done at all. It is necessary that people know an act is evil, or are unreasonable in not knowing it is evil in order for their committing it to be evil.

Neither Adam and Eve knew eating the fruit was evil, and since they had no concept of it they were perfectly reasonable in not knowing. Consequently, they did no evil. Disobeying God is irrelevant because they had no obligation to obey God at all. Obeying God would be the same as obeying the devil, or one another. You use worlds like disobey and rebellion, but neither even apply to the creation myth. Even if they did, it would certainly be wrong of God to punish a potential infinite number of people for the acts of two people. You can dance around the fact that God created all evil, and God created death, destruction and suffering, but your pretending doesn’t make God not the one to blame. "

In school, or college the professor gives tests on the subject(s) being taught. Not for his knowledge, but to see how well the student is grasping the information. Various grade levels tell a student how well they did. All who get above an (F) pass the class.

God gives all of us tests throughout life, which is less than the blink of an eye compared to eternity. But we are tested just the same.

Heaven and hell exist. They are for eternity. Do a cost benefit analysis.