Do you have an idea how good Atheist will be saved?

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The principles of Christianity(ie. the golden rule) did not exist prior to the Judeo-Christian faith
You are very ignorant…

There are many many religions in the world that came up with the same moral rule, without having contact with each other, many long before Christianity. The golden rule does not rely on religion, nor does it come from it. It comes from common sense and empathy. If you need a God to tell you not to hurt others, I pity you.
 
Well, aside from the fact that Christianity indeed bore the “fruit” of the Crusades and various other historical atrocities.
Bravo. And agreed with slavery, and began terrible wars, and even God in the OT orders the slaughter of women and children…
 
You correctly state that nothing in your post comes anywhere close to evidence.

I asked you for evidence, and you go off on this poorly-reasoned rant, which I suppose is a taste of what you’re going to say if I pick “The Complexity of Life and Nature.”

So I’ll pick that one and point out that complexity, in and of itself, does not indicate that a disembodied intelligence is organizing the universe. In fact, evolution demonstrates that complex things come from simple things – the idea of an intelligence existing all by itself contradicts the observed evidence that complex things come from simpler things.

If you can seriously reason your way from “there are complex things” to “therefore, there’s a supernatural being that created complexity” – and your logic is both sound and valid – then you are going to win a Nobel Prize for your work. Let’s see your logical process.

[Incidentally, no one says it’s “impossible” for Stonehenge to have occurred naturally – anymore than it’s impossible for that “face” on the Mars rocks to have occurred naturally – it’s that we have examples of human civilizations erecting standing stones and of standing stones being significant to the religion of that particular civilization…that’s how we know it’s man-made…it has nothing to do with the “complexity” of the rocks]
I believe that giving you a link would be a lot easier than just selecting and copy-pasting things. What do you say? I will give you a link and then you tell me what is wrong with it.

creationevolution.net/

What I’m certain of is that a cell could not evolve like evolution says. Evolution says that it evolved step by step, according to the environment and it’s needs. But science shows us the that in the cell there are a lot of processes that need each other. If you take one out the cell dies. It’s like the mouse trap example. In order for the cell to live it would have to develop those processes simultaneously, but the cell doesn’t have a brain to think in advance that it will need to develop those processes simultaneously and it neither has in the DNA the information to tell it that it must develop those processes simultaneously in order to live. When the cell will realize that it needs both processes after developing one it will die before developing the second.

Just a thought. But what I’m interested in is what is your response tot eh arguments provided in that link.

But what I would really like to show you is the fulfillment of prophecy, but first let’s talk about point 2.
 
Oh, I’ve been around CAF long enough to have watched a few ‘Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus’ and ‘Nostra Aetate’ rows and to know that it’s not as simple as that!
The opinions of some Jansenists and “traditionalists” are just that; opinions.

Again, the official position of the church is that all can saved, even non-Catholics.
 
Bravo. And agreed with slavery, and began terrible wars, and even God in the OT orders the slaughter of women and children…
the entire world agreed with slavery, but the abolitionist movement was Christian. Wars have rarely been fought over purely religious reasons. If you want to say Christian governments have killed people,atheism has killed far more people in the last century, than all religions combined in the entire history of the world. Yes God did give that order in a particular time and place to a particular people.
 
Yes life is amazing, and it can be hard to wrap one’s mind around how complex it all is. However, many things which we now understand as being part of nature were originally attributed to God because the people couldn’t understand how nature could cause them. Things like lightning, the weather, and illness are now greatly understood as not being caused by a god/devil. While we still struggle with understanding life and the universe, if you attribute them to God, then you simply hoist the issue to “where did God come from”? If its hard to wrap your mind around humans being here because of nature, then an infinitely more complex God just “being here” seems even more difficult to understand.

Yes, God ordering the killing (and suffering) of children, among others, just doesn’t make sense from a morally superior being who has the ability to kill them all painlessly with a thought, or better yet intervene beforehand to prevent things from getting out of hand in the first place (since the Catholic God is supposed to be omnimax). The only way I’ve ever been able to make some semblance of sense of the OT was to attribute most of it to allegory.
 
Yes life is amazing, and it can be hard to wrap one’s mind around how complex it all is. However, many things which we now understand as being part of nature were originally attributed to God because the people couldn’t understand how nature could cause them. Things like lightning, the weather, and illness are now greatly understood as not being caused by a god/devil. While we still struggle with understanding life and the universe, if you attribute them to God, then you simply hoist the issue to “where did God come from”? If its hard to wrap your mind around humans being here because of nature, then an infinitely more complex God just “being here” seems even more difficult to understand.
Then how do you explain that prophecies in the Bible have been correct and have been fulfilled? Mere coincidence?
Yes, God ordering the killing (and suffering) of children, among others, just doesn’t make sense from a morally superior being who has the ability to kill them all painlessly with a thought, or better yet intervene beforehand to prevent things from getting out of hand in the first place (since the Catholic God is supposed to be omnimax). The only way I’ve ever been able to make some semblance of sense of the OT was to attribute most of it to allegory.
What you must understand is that God puts His people (who at that time were the Jews…and still are, but now spiritual Jews, and not physical) above everything else. The Gentiles weren’t His people. Let’s take as an example the Amalekites. Unlike us, God knows the future. God knew what the results would be if Israel did not completely eradicate the Amalekites. If Israel did not carry out God’s orders, the Amalekites would come back to “haunt” the Israelites again and again. Saul claimed to have killed everyone but the Amalekite king Agag (1 Samuel 15:20). Obviously Saul was lying…just a couple of decades later there were enough Amalekites to take David and his men’s families captive (1 Samuel 30:1-2). After David and his men attacked the Amalekites and rescued their families, 400 Amalekites escaped. If Saul had fulfilled what God had commanded him, this never would have occurred. Several hundred years later, a descendant of Agag, Haman, tried to have the entire Jewish people exterminated (see the book of Esther). So, Saul’s incomplete obedience almost resulted in Israel’s destruction. God knew this would occur, so He ordered the extermination of the Amalekites ahead of time.

gotquestions.org/Canaanites-extermination.html This is where I got the answer for, in case there are copyright issues. But it’s true, even if I’m not the one who said it.
 
alitaptap: Just for the record, I have found that “atheists” who base their reasons for not believing on the childish “a lot of [bad] things happen and God doesn’t do anything” argument are almost always basing their arguments on sentimentality, emotion, and nonsense – instead of logic.

The proper reason not to believe in a god is that there is no evidence for one. God might very well exist and be an evil tyrant by human standards. “God lets bad things happen” fails as an argument, and the “atheists” who make this argument can often be swayed back to their original religion with more sentimental tripe.
While some people do argue the point because of emotion, a lot are arguing the logical problem of evil in the presence of a specifically omnimax God. That in itself can occupy an entire thread. Here’s the wiki on it for an overview if you are interested. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil
 
Then how do you explain that prophecies in the Bible have been correct and have been fulfilled? Mere coincidence?
This is a very extensive issue which can’t be answered with just a simple line or paragraph. Is this thread ready to begin discussing this issue or shall we complete discussion of the other points first?
What you must understand is that God puts His people (who at that time were the Jews…and still are, but now spiritual Jews, and not physical) above everything else. The Gentiles weren’t His people.
What a sad sentence. All people are cared about by God. Look at Matthew 18:12-13 12How think ye? if a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Let’s take as an example the Amalekites. Unlike us, God knows the future. God knew what the results would be if Israel did not completely eradicate the Amalekites. If Israel did not carry out God’s orders, the Amalekites would come back to “haunt” the Israelites again and again.
Yes, exactly, God knows the future and could have easily intervened a century before to ensure things did not get to the point where they were. It still does not address that God could have had a thought and all could have instantly died instead of the horror and suffering of a slaughter.

Another section of the link you provided states
Probably the most difficult part of these commands from God is that God ordered the death of children and infants as well. Why would God order the death of innocent children? (1) Children are not innocent (Psalm 51:5; 58:3). (2) These children would have likely grown up as adherents to the evil religions and practices of their parents. (3) By ending their lives as children, God enabled them to have entrance into Heaven. We strongly believe that all children who die are accepted into Heaven by the grace and mercy of God (2 Samuel 12:22-23; Mark 10:14-15; Matthew 18:2-4).
#1 - Yes you could say even children were born with original sin, but that’s not a reason to kill children. #2 - look back at the lost sheep parable. No one should be considered permanently lost, especially a child. There is no way that you can look at a child and just because of who they were born to, say that they are doomed. Giving up on an infant is frankly deplorable. #3 - You can’t say for sure if all of these children were saved forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1759 *Concerning those chldren who die without baptism, the Catechism of the Catholic Church (no. 1261) says that “the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. *

Killing children for the hope that they will get into heaven is pretty shady. Regardless, if God wanted someone dead, I’m still failing to see the moral benefit of causing suffering by slaughter by a human instead of an instant death by God or another route, especially when God has an infinite amount of options to convert these people without resorting to killing. The ordering of death seems morally worse to me than those many other options, and God is supposed to be morally superior…
 
Since God has written His law in every human heart , that is why everyone , including non-believers knows when he does right or wrong.
Since God is just , He is not prone to making mistakes when it comes to judgement.
All we have to do is follow our conscience
But we are still obliged to have an informed conscience… 🙂
 
Atheists are evil. They ask, “How can you say that? Isn’t that bigoted?”

No, it’s rather a corollary to a larger theorem which states, “Man is evil.”

Christians know the narrow path of good is Christ. He is our salvation, our avenue of redemption.

Atheists reject this, therefore they are incapable of real good.

Are they doomed to hell? For them it’s a silly question, for they reject hell. So, why would they ask this question in the first place? For a Christian, the question is a moot. Christ is the judge of the matter on an individual basis on Judgement Day, who are we to say? The only reasons atheists have to come in here and launch threads on topics such as this are nefarious reasons. Scroll back through this thread and observe the glee various atheists have had casting dispersions on God and in sowing elements of doubt in Christian minds.

Conviviality and openess have their good marks, but when guests come into our Church in order to trash the one who built it there is only one thing to say: “There’s the door out. Use it.”

To those unbelievers who have come to this thread with a genuine heart, one seeking answers about Catholic teachings regarding theology, morality, and philosophy, I’d urge you to go visit your local Catholic parish and ask about RICA classes. That’s a place to start. And ask a lot of questions. May God be with you.
 
No, I do not have an idea on how a good Atheist will be saved.

If in the end he/she is saved (and we pray that all men be saved), it will be Jesus Christ who saved him/her.
 
Yes life is amazing, and it can be hard to wrap one’s mind around how complex it all is. However, many things which we now understand as being part of nature were originally attributed to God because the people couldn’t understand how nature could cause them. Things like lightning, the weather, and illness are now greatly understood as not being caused by a god/devil. While we still struggle with understanding life and the universe, if you attribute them to God, then you simply hoist the issue to “where did God come from”? If its hard to wrap your mind around humans being here because of nature, then an infinitely more complex God just “being here” seems even more difficult to understand.
From the time of our birth there are a “bazillion” things that we take for granted everyday without “understanding” them. As an infant our ability to understand is basically “nil” and so we take everything for granted including our food, the air, warmth, even life itself, because we are intellectually incapable of understanding things.
As we grow our ability to understand begins to develop slowly and only in small steps are we able grasp the world around us. Only in small steps are we even able to learn to control our own bodies. Only in small steps are we able to learn of the wonders and dangers of our world. Of course walking along with us in this long journey of small steps are our parents.
Our parents, or some other adult(s) guide us, sometimes with soft words and encouragement, sometimes with sharp words and punishment. But at all times with Love and a desire to see us grow up happy and healthy.
Our parents also teach us in accordance with our ability to understand. When we are three years old they might tell us that the thunder is, “clouds bumping together”, or that the lightening is, “Angels playing with the lightswitches”. A parent might actually try to explain lightening and thunder to a three year old, but will the child actually be able to grasp the se mysteries the parent is trying to convey?
Later the explanations and the understandings for things will come closer to the realities of the objects, but only as we develop the ability to grasp things.

All of the above is merely to say that, simply because we do not, and indeed cannot, understand God does not mean that God does not, or cannot exist. Even as adults there are things that we cannot understand, try as we might.
Yes, God ordering the killing (and suffering) of children, among others, just doesn’t make sense from a morally superior being who has the ability to kill them all painlessly with a thought, or better yet intervene beforehand to prevent things from getting out of hand in the first place (since the Catholic God is supposed to be omnimax). The only way I’ve ever been able to make some semblance of sense of the OT was to attribute most of it to allegory.
The Bible as a whole is really a progression of morality from the purely (or nearly) carnal to the purely spiritual. You will find that as the OT progesses toward the NT God places ever greater controls on man’s conduct and on his morality. Just as a parent will teach a child.
Also, it is to be remembered that God, has a different view of things than we humans do. God works in terms of the infinite and not in the finite terms we humans use. So the killing and the suffering that we, from our view, see as inexplicable, God may well see as perfectly necessary. For instance, I don’t think that we can know the fate of those God ordered killed in the OT. Perhaps any person killed “on God’s order” is automatically forgiven any sin and was welcomed into heaven when Jesus redeemed the rightious.
There are many things we do not know, can not know, so we leave it up to God.

Perhaps this will help you place some of these things in context.

Peace
James
 
Yes life is amazing, and it can be hard to wrap one’s mind around how complex it all is. However, many things which we now understand as being part of nature were originally attributed to God because the people couldn’t understand how nature could cause them. Things like lightning, the weather, and illness are now greatly understood as not being caused by a god/devil. While we still struggle with understanding life and the universe, if you attribute them to God, then you simply hoist the issue to “where did God come from”? If its hard to wrap your mind around humans being here because of nature, then an infinitely more complex God just “being here” seems even more difficult to understand.

Yes, God ordering the killing (and suffering) of children, among others, just doesn’t make sense from a morally superior being who has the ability to kill them all painlessly with a thought, or better yet intervene beforehand to prevent things from getting out of hand in the first place (since the Catholic God is supposed to be omnimax). The only way I’ve ever been able to make some semblance of sense of the OT was to attribute most of it to allegory.
I like the analogy of looking to close at the back of a tapestry. the individual threads look like nothing more than a disordered mess. if you step back you can make out what most of the picture is but some of the finer details are still lost. it is only from the front (Gods perspective) that the full and detailed work can be appreciated. we tend to forget that we think of our lives as limited to the time our bodies are working. God does not. Why was the gospel preached to those souls who died after refusing to listen to Noah? God was not yet finished with them. if He was not finished with them, What about the others who died in the old testament?
 
All of the above is merely to say that, simply because we do not, and indeed cannot, understand God does not mean that God does not, or cannot exist.
Sure, the above is a possibility.
Also, it is to be remembered that God, has a different view of things than we humans do. God works in terms of the infinite and not in the finite terms we humans use. So the killing and the suffering that we, from our view, see as inexplicable, God may well see as perfectly necessary.
I like the analogy of looking to close at the back of a tapestry. the individual threads look like nothing more than a disordered mess. if you step back you can make out what most of the picture is but some of the finer details are still lost. it is only from the front (Gods perspective) that the full and detailed work can be appreciated.
The problem is, that “there may be more to the story than we realize” and “God’s ways are higher than ours and we may not be able to understand it all” can be used to justify anything, in any religion, so it really doesn’t help us come closer to understanding what is the actual truth. And when the issue is something that seems to strongly violate one’s sense of right and wrong, the issue is only more problematic. Tell me, if you were to receive a voice in your head telling you to kill Islamic or Scientology children, would you do it, saying that God’s ways are not our own? Or would it violate your moral compass so fiercely to cause you to think that it couldn’t really be God telling you to do that?
Since God has written His law in every human heart , that is why everyone , including non-believers knows when he does right or wrong.
Since God is just , He is not prone to making mistakes when it comes to judgement.
All we have to do is follow our conscience
But we are still obliged to have an informed conscience… 🙂
Exactly, God is supposed to not make any mistakes and is supposed to have a perfect moral compass, one that we should be awed by and strive for.
 
The problem is, that “there may be more to the story than we realize” and “God’s ways are higher than ours and we may not be able to understand it all” can be used to justify anything, in any religion, so it really doesn’t help us come closer to understanding what is the actual truth. And when the issue is something that seems to strongly violate one’s sense of right and wrong, the issue is only more problematic. Tell me, if you were to receive a voice in your head telling you to kill Islamic or Scientology children, would you do it, saying that God’s ways are not our own? Or would it violate your moral compass so fiercely to cause you to think that it couldn’t really be God telling you to do that?
No I would not. I would seek spiritual councilling instead. Such councilling, I am sure, would lead one away from accepting such a voice as being authentically from God.

The reason is very simple too. We live under the new covenant and not the old. Under the New Covenant, the Law of Love, salvation is open to all and not just to “God’s Chosen People”, the Hebrews. The teachings of My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the basis for the New Covenant, do not allow for such action.
Thus it is that we should seek their salvation and not their deaths.

Peace
James
 
Then along comes Einstein and talks about bending space etc. An Idea that is seen as preposterous by many in the scientific world of the time.
Long story short, it took many years/decades to be able to demonstrate that light (and space) does indeed bend around objects. Low and behold it now appears that we are not held on the earth by the earth’s “pull” but by the “push” of bent space.
JRKH,

Thank you for demonstrating that science is not dogmatic, but accepting of new evidence. As the Einstein example indicates, we change our scientific theories to match new evidence.

Einstein didn’t present a paper in which he said, “I prayed really hard, and this idea came to me! And me made me feel really warm and good!”

He also didn’t say, “Gee whiz, look at gravity! It’s so amazing! Those other ideas about gravity just couldn’t be right, could they? Nope, I must be right.”

He also didn’t say, “My conclusions come from this ancient book, which I’m going to accept because it makes me feel warm and fuzzy when I read it.”

Einstein did what the religious are not capable of – he provided evidence that points clearly and undeniably to his ideas. [If someone wanted to deny it, that person would have to provide other evidence, and doing so would result in that person winning a nobel prize and changing all of scientific thought]

So no, I’m not asking for anything unreasonable here. But when you post nonsense like this:
The theist says, just look at the world the huge expanse of the universe, etc. etc. the mere fact of it is proof that there is an intelligence behind it.
you demonstrate that you’re not interested in actual conversation. The existence of order does not in any way prove intelligence, as I’m about to explain.

In the first place, we have ample evidence that order doesn’t have to stem from intelligence. Gravity is a good example again – the motions of the planets, very orderly and organized, comes from the blind, unintelligent force of gravity. Similarly, intricate patterns (think of a snowflake) are the result of blind forces as well, not a shred of intelligence.

But in the second place, the evidence that we have indicates that complex things come from simple things. If you are claiming that a disembodied intelligence exists all by itself, then you are making a claim that contradicts all known evidence and everything that we know about the universe.

That’s some claim!

It’s going to take a whole lot more than, “Gee whiz, look at everything!” to demonstrate it.
 
What do you say? I will give you a link and then you tell me what is wrong with it.
No. If you can’t make the argument yourself, I’m not interested in reading some website. But at any rate, I think you’re heading in the direction of an argument from ignorance that doesn’t make your case. Let me explain.

From what I know about “intelligent design,” which is the fancy-sounding name they’ve given to this generation of creationist lunacy, it asserts that things are “too complicated” to have evolved.

While I don’t agree with that assertion, let’s pretend, for the sake of argument, that evolution does not explain the diversity of life.

Now go ahead and demonstrate the existence of your god.

You’ll find that discarding evolution doesn’t get you any closer to proving that your god exists. There are not only two explanations for the diversity of life on this planet. Simply discarding evolution doesn’t mean that your god is automatically the correct answer.

Sorry, you lose.
 
The only reasons atheists have to come in here and launch threads on topics such as this are nefarious reasons.
Well, let’s see what the nefarious atheist who started this very thread had to say:
For us Catholics and other Christians, we need Jesus Christ to be saved
Why, what’s this? It looks like the OP wasn’t an atheist at all.

And for the record, I’m here because I enjoy talking about this stuff. I know, how nefarious.
 
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