Do you have an idea how good Atheist will be saved?

[JRKH]

JRKH,

Thank you for demonstrating that science is not dogmatic, but accepting of new evidence. As the Einstein example indicates, we change our scientific theories to match new evidence.

Einstein didn’t present a paper in which he said, “I prayed really hard, and this idea came to me! And me made me feel really warm and good!”

He also didn’t say, “Gee whiz, look at gravity! It’s so amazing! Those other ideas about gravity just couldn’t be right, could they? Nope, I must be right.”

He also didn’t say, “My conclusions come from this ancient book, which I’m going to accept because it makes me feel warm and fuzzy when I read it.”

Einstein did what the religious are not capable of – he provided evidence that points clearly and undeniably to his ideas. [If someone wanted to deny it, that person would have to provide other evidence, and doing so would result in that person winning a nobel prize and changing all of scientific thought]

And I thank you for demonstrating that you are cabable of missing the entire point and only selecting that portion which fits with you particular world view.

So no, I’m not asking for anything unreasonable here. But when you post nonsense like this:

The theist says, just look at the world the huge expanse of the universe, etc. etc. the mere fact of it is proof that there is an intelligence behind it.

you demonstrate that you’re not interested in actual conversation.

And you demonstrate that you too are not interested in “actual conversation” by pulling bits and pieces out of posts.

The existence of order does not in any way prove intelligence, as I’m about to explain.
In the first place, we have ample evidence that order doesn’t have to stem from intelligence. Gravity is a good example again – the motions of the planets, very orderly and organized, comes from the blind, unintelligent force of gravity. Similarly, intricate patterns (think of a snowflake) are the result of blind forces as well, not a shred of intelligence.

The movement of a car at 60 miles an hour is the result of similar “blind” forces including gravity, friction, electricity, and so forth. That does not mean there isn’t an “intelligent force” behind the wheel.

But in the second place, the evidence that we have indicates that complex things come from simple things. If you are claiming that a disembodied intelligence exists all by itself, then you are making a claim that contradicts all known evidence and everything that we know about the universe.

That’s some claim!

The key phrase here being what we “know” and and "all known evidence.

It’s going to take a whole lot more than, “Gee whiz, look at everything!” to demonstrate it.

As you wish.

Peace
james

 

[JRKH]

Well, let’s see what the nefarious atheist who started this very thread had to say: Why, what’s this? It looks like the OP wasn’t an atheist at all.

And for the record, I’m here because I enjoy talking about this stuff. I know, how nefarious.

And of course we should not draw any “nefarious” conclusions from your sceen name should we.
Atheist = No theism
AntiTheist - Against Theism.

Nope nothing “nefarious” there at all…

Peace
James

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Sure, the above is a possibility.

The problem is, that “there may be more to the story than we realize” and “God’s ways are higher than ours and we may not be able to understand it all” can be used to justify anything, in any religion, so it really doesn’t help us come closer to understanding what is the actual truth. And when the issue is something that seems to strongly violate one’s sense of right and wrong, the issue is only more problematic. Tell me, if you were to receive a voice in your head telling you to kill Islamic or Scientology children, would you do it, saying that God’s ways are not our own? Or would it violate your moral compass so fiercely to cause you to think that it couldn’t really be God telling you to do that?

Exactly, God is supposed to not make any mistakes and is supposed to have a perfect moral compass, one that we should be awed by and strive for.

No I would not.

 

[thomasf]

Similarly, I’m the kind of person you’d probably call a “good person” if you hung out with me, but I don’t see any evidence or reason to think that there are any gods of any kind.

If it’s true that “good atheists” are saved even without having to believe in a god, then I’m set either way. There would be no point to me believing claims for which there is no evidence.

Jesus said “There is only one who is good, your father in heaven.” Never did Jesus ever tell us that being good could get us to Heaven. Because frankly, no matter how hard we try we’ll never be ‘good’, only God can achieve that. But He did give us a church to help us along the path and to grow closer to God and help us to salvation. Salvation isn’t something we can do for ourselves, it comes through Jesus. An atheist that denies the existence of God and rejects his grace has little hope for salvation. And to be clear, invincible ignorance doesn’t cover you when you make a free decision to reject God. He gave us free will, and we can choose whether or not to follow Him. But that choice has consequences. If you reject God, He will reject you.

That all being said, judgement is God’s decision not man’s. But man should be pretty clear about what it means to reject God.

 

[alitaptap]

Well, let’s see what the nefarious atheist who started this very thread had to say: Why, what’s this? It looks like the OP wasn’t an atheist at all.

And for the record, I’m here because I enjoy talking about this stuff. I know, how nefarious.

Friend,

I came across a very interesting article One Hundred Questions that Jesus Asked and YOU must answerWould you care to answer at least twelve questions - from 88 to 100?

 

[AntiTheist]

The movement of a car at 60 miles an hour is the result of similar “blind” forces including gravity, friction, electricity, and so forth. That does not mean there isn’t an “intelligent force” behind the wheel.

No, it doesn’t. And it doesn’t indicate that there is, either.

The fact that the car moves to avoid obstacles in its path might tell us that there something at work – either an intelligent pilot or something built into the car (sensors, maybe) that makes it turn when obstacles come into view.

But the way that we know that there is intelligence at work is the existence of evidence that an intelligent person is driving the machine.

The key phrase here being what we “know” and and "all known evidence.

Well, as soon as you get evidence that there is such a thing as disembodied intelligence, present it and head off to collect your nobel prize. Hope you’re prepared for all the media attention, because that would be the most monumental discovery in the history of the human race.

thomasf:

Jesus said “There is only one who is good, your father in heaven.”

I disagree with Jesus.

alitaptap:

Would you care to answer at least twelve questions - from 88 to 100?

Do you seriously think that looking at those questions would be at all convincing to someone who doesn’t already agree with you? Seriously?

I don’t “believe” Jesus for the same reason that I don’t “believe” King Arthur – there’s not enough evidence that either of these people, as represented in their mythic accounts, were actually real. There probably were real people upon whom the characters of Jesus and King Arthur were based, but believing the mythic details of their stories is not justifiable.

 

[Moro_Rock]

But the way that we know that there is intelligence at work is the existence of evidence that an intelligent person is driving the machine.
There is a standard. Man cannot live up to God’s Standard under his own steam.
God sends His Son Jesus to bridge the gap.

thomasf: I disagree with Jesus.
If you disagree with Jesus God] Guess Who’s Wrong ?

I don’t “believe” Jesus for the same reason that I don’t “believe” King Arthur – there’s not enough evidence that either of these people, as represented in their mythic accounts, were actually real. There probably were real people upon whom the characters of Jesus and King Arthur were based, but believing the mythic details of their stories is not justifiable. The life and death of Jesus is historically verifiable by religious and secular sources.:bible1:

 

[Aleii]

Wrong is wrong, regardless of the time it takes place.

 

[alitaptap]

alitaptap: Do you seriously think that looking at those questions would be at all convincing to someone who doesn’t already agree with you? Seriously?

Friend,

I’m so sorry if you feel that way. :hug1: