Do you have any questions about where traditional Judaism stands on moral issues?

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Sepharad said:
What many Jews and Christians do not understand is: you can be a Jew and believe that someone is or was the messiah, as long as you do not also ascribe DEITY to that person. Judaism never taught that the true Messiah would be divine…that is actually the real problem for Judaism, not so much the personality of the alleged messiah.
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Thank you for the clarification - and I agree this is an important issue. Not trying to convice you - but to set the record as completely as possible as others will read your post with the stated conclusion that Judaism does not teach the Messiah is or can be a diety.

It is important to understand (as I know you do from your prior posts) that Christians believe that Jesus is part of God (part of the Trinity that makes up a single God - the Jewish God). The references to the triune nature of God in the Hebrew scriptures is extensive - numerous references to God, then his Spirit, and God appears as a “man” in many instances (recall Jacob wrestling with the Lord - and the Lord meeting and talking with Abraham on the way to Sodom?). Also, in the New Testament, Jesus is referred to as the Word - strikingly, the Targum translations of the Bible our filled with references to God as the “Word” where the context suggested a direct contact with the Lord.

Also, there are references to the Messiah which indicate He is from ancient times (i.e., not a normal man like the rest of us) - see Mica 5:12 (" But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." " )

Not to mention the verse I cited in an earlier post where the Messiah is referred to as “Mighty God” - the re: translation you provided in the link in response to that verse is quit contorted (really).

I’ll say this - at best (from your perspective), the concept of the Messiah is not well defined in scripture so does not expressly and unequivicably point to a divine nature. By the same token, a fair and unbiased reading the Hebrew scriptures can’t rule the divine nature of the Messiah out. I see it - you don’t - that’s ok - something for us all to think about. 🙂

Blessings,

Brian
 
Family Planning… What methods of birth control are acceptable? I hope I don’t open a can of worms. It’s just a simple and sincere question, I promise. 🙂
  • Westy
 
Robbinson,

I did not intend for this thread to turn into yet another “why can’t Jews believe in Jesus” (I even stated that in my first post in this thread), but I can see you are trying to take it in that direction.

Please, can we confine questions to those outside that realm, since that subject has truly been beaten to death in many other threads?
 
Ohwesty said:
Family Planning… What methods of birth control are acceptable? I hope I don’t open a can of worms. It’s just a simple and sincere question, I promise. 🙂
  • Westy
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I can only speak from the view of traditional (Orthodox, Chasidic) Judaism, since that is the only one I’m familiar with to a great degree.

The very Orthodox do not practice forms of birth control (even natural methods of child spacing, such as NFP), unless there is a very serious threat to the life of the wife. An Orthodox couple needs to get permission from their Rav (rabbi) in such cases. And in these cases, the only methods allowed are those that the woman would use…men are not allowed to “spill seed” for any reason, as would be required in coitus interruptus or condoms (Orthodox Judaism also prohibits masturbation for this reason, just as Catholicism does.)
 
Sepharad said:
Robbinson,

I did not intend for this thread to turn into yet another “why can’t Jews believe in Jesus” (I even stated that in my first post in this thread), but I can see you are trying to take it in that direction.

Please, can we confine questions to those outside that realm, since that subject has truly been beaten to death in many other threads?
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Yes. But please appreciate that was not my intent (taking this thread in that direction) but rather, as you posted something in response to a post stating a conclusion of Judaism or Jewish thinking - I felt it fair and reasonable to point out that that conclusion is only one possible interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures.

Blessings,

Brian
 
I made a very interesting discovery, while researching something in my Jewish encyclopedia, I thought it might be of interest here too!

There is a Jewish prayer called Kaddish, which is said in Aramaic and is usually said when someone dies. I have always had a problem with this prayer, because in my childhood, just hearing the first line of it (in Aramaic) signaled that someone had died. Because of that (and because I lost so many loved ones when I was still little), it left a bad impression on me.

Well, for the first time I decided to read the English translation. Was I surprised! The prayer says nothing about death at all, but is a prayer honoring and praising the Name of God, and is a plea for the coming of the Messiah and his kingdom. I look at it in a new light now!

But in researching it further, I learned that the Kaddish prayer was incorporated into the Catholic Mass (the traditional one), in the Gloria and the Sanctus. The encyclopedia also said that the Lord’s Prayer, as formulated by Jesus, derives directly from the Kaddish prayer. I never realized any of this before, because I’d never read the prayer in English!

In something unrelated, I was also researching the Shekinah (a feminine Hebrew term for the Presence of God)…it said the Shekinah in Judaism was always represented as a dove. I then thought of the NT portrayal of God alighting on Jesus’ shoulder in the form of a dove, and realized that was where the first Christians got the idea for the dove portrayal from!

The Shekinah (feminine aspect of God) is also referred to in Judaism as the ruach ha’kodesh, which is Hebrew for holy spirit (Christian term).
 
Sepharad said:
A previous poster asked where traditional Judaism stands on birth control.

I recently found this on a Chasidic forum, and thought it might interest you:

breslovworld.com/DynamicArtical.aspx?linknumber=3211
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Wow… thanks. That was interesting. I saved the site to check out at my leisure. I had no idea some Jews felt this strongly about birth control. I have a Jewish friend and I know she does not believe this way. But she is not Chasidic either. She is not what you call Orthodox, and I thought there might be different teachings coming from Orthodox, Conservative and Reform. Anyway, my friend and I avoid the topic of birth control because we know we will not agree with each other. lol Well, that was an eye-opener. Thanks again.
  • Westy
 
Ohwesty said:
Wow… thanks. That was interesting. I saved the site to check out at my leisure. I had no idea some Jews felt this strongly about birth control. I have a Jewish friend and I know she does not believe this way. But she is not Chasidic either. She is not what you call Orthodox, and I thought there might be different teachings coming from Orthodox, Conservative and Reform. Anyway, my friend and I avoid the topic of birth control because we know we will not agree with each other. lol Well, that was an eye-opener. Thanks again.
  • Westy
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Only about 10% of Jews today are what the non-religious Jews call “Orthodox” (they prefer the term, “Torah observant”.) At one time all of Judaism was “Orthodox” (Chasidic is a stricter version of Orthodox, what some call “ultra” Orthodox.)

Keep in mind that the less religious forms of Judaism were much later developments, have only existed for the last 200 years or so, and are basically man-made. When you want to know what Judaism has believed for the last few thousand years, you need to consult the Torah observant, or “Orthodox”.
 
Sepharad said:
Only about 10% of Jews today are what the non-religious Jews call “Orthodox” (they prefer the term, “Torah observant”.) At one time all of Judaism was “Orthodox” (Chasidic is a stricter version of Orthodox, what some call “ultra” Orthodox.)

Keep in mind that the less religious forms of Judaism were much later developments, have only existed for the last 200 years or so, and are basically man-made. When you want to know what Judaism has believed for the last few thousand years, you need to consult the Torah observant, or “Orthodox”.
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Is it on topic to ask what “modern Orthodox” means? Sounds like what you are describing as “Torah observant” – no black hats, no wigs but very careful about “observance”?
 
mercygate said:
Is it on topic to ask what “modern Orthodox” means? Sounds like what you are describing as “Torah observant” – no black hats, no wigs but very careful about “observance”?
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“Modern Orthodox” describes a group of more lenient Orthodox Jews who feel it is possible to integrate their religious duties with the modern world. They generally do not have beards or wear dark clothing, but fit in more with the modern world. Perhaps the most you will see outwardly is that they will wear a yarmulke (head covering.)
 
Sepharad said:
“Modern Orthodox” describes a group of more lenient Orthodox Jews who feel it is possible to integrate their religious duties with the modern world. They generally do not have beards or wear dark clothing, but fit in more with the modern world. Perhaps the most you will see outwardly is that they will wear a yarmulke (head covering.)
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Yup. That describes my friends. Their level of Kosher-hood is: I- will-at-in-your-house-but-bring-my-own-food-and-my-own-dishes.

They were having an interesting discussion the other day about the separation of meat and dairy, speculating that there must be something behind this other than “not boiling a kid in its mother’s milk” because the likelihood of EVER doing that is nonexistent.

They also gave me a detailed explanation of why observant Jews cannot eat pasta during Passover. I was kind of puzzled that not only is wine permitted but REQUIRED during Passover since the stuff is FULL of yeast . . . They had an answer for that as well, of course.
 
I don’t know about you, but don’t you see it as kind of rude for someone to say “I’ll come to your house but bring my own food and dishes?” I’ve been invited by nonJewish and Jewish-but-not-religious friends to eat at their homes, and to avoid making them possibly feel insulted, I suggest we all go out to eat at a kosher restaurant instead!

Or am I being oversensitive? I’m curious, were you offended when they did that?

BTW they might have it not exactly right about wine being required during Passover. We spend one of our Seders at the home of a local Chasidic rabbi, and they had grape juice and wine…people could choose whichever they wanted (good thing, since my husband cannot have alcohol for medical reasons!) They never made us feel we had to drink the wine.
 
Sepharad said:
I don’t know about you, but don’t you see it as kind of rude for someone to say “I’ll come to your house but bring my own food and dishes?” I’ve been invited by nonJewish and Jewish-but-not-religious friends to eat at their homes, and to avoid making them possibly feel insulted, I suggest we all go out to eat at a kosher restaurant instead! Or am I being oversensitive? I’m curious, were you offended when they did that?
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NO, NO, NO! It wasn’t at all rude. I ASKED whether they would even CONSIDER coming to a party my DH wanted to give for a class this guy was in. We wanted this couple to come but thought he wouldn’t be able to because of the dietary rules. We were GLAD he & his wife volunteered to bring something they could eat (and a bottle of Kosher wine). We have been to dinner with them several times at their home and at good (really GOOD) Kosher restaurants.
BTW they might have it not exactly right about wine being required during Passover. We spend one of our Seders at the home of a local Chasidic rabbi, and they had grape juice and wine…people could choose whichever they wanted (good thing, since my husband cannot have alcohol for medical reasons!) They never made us feel we had to drink the wine.
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Interesting but I’ll bet that wine is a necessity (unless everyone there were prohibited). Let’s have a rabbi fight! LOL
 
Sepharad said:
I don’t know about you, but don’t you see it as kind of rude for someone to say “I’ll come to your house but bring my own food and dishes?” I’ve been invited by nonJewish and Jewish-but-not-religious friends to eat at their homes, and to avoid making them possibly feel insulted, I suggest we all go out to eat at a kosher restaurant instead!
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Catholics have the same dilemma when invited to a non-Catholic’s house for dinner on a Friday in Lent. I wouldn’t want to ask…“well, are you serving fish?” Or showing up and saying “no thanks” to the main course (which they probably spent hours preparing) and nibbling only on the salad. I like your suggestion of eating out at a kosher restaurant. That way we could all order what we want.
  • Westy
 
Sepharad said:
“Modern Orthodox” describes a group of more lenient Orthodox Jews who feel it is possible to integrate their religious duties with the modern world. They generally do not have beards or wear dark clothing, but fit in more with the modern world. Perhaps the most you will see outwardly is that they will wear a yarmulke (head covering.)
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I’m pretty sure my Jewish friend is of the Conservative kind. They are definitely religious Jews. She says they follow the Torah, attend synagogue, observe the Jewish feasts and holy days (not sure that’s the correct term), says her Jewish prayers and eats kosher. She made a remark once about someone in her family “converting” to Orthodox. Not sure “converting” is the correct term either. It’s interesting that all Jews were “Torah observant” until the last 200 years. What makes one a cultural-only, non-religious Jew?
  • Westy
 
Ohwesty said:
I’m pretty sure my Jewish friend is of the Conservative kind. They are definitely religious Jews. She says they follow the Torah, attend synagogue, observe the Jewish feasts and holy days (not sure that’s the correct term), says her Jewish prayers and eats kosher. She made a remark once about someone in her family “converting” to Orthodox. Not sure “converting” is the correct term either. It’s interesting that all Jews were “Torah observant” until the last 200 years. What makes one a cultural-only, non-religious Jew?
  • Westy
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The correct term would probably be “moving over to Orthodox”, since no conversion ceremony or anything is involved (unless the person becoming Orthodox was a convert to Judaism and did not have an Orthodox conversion…because Orthodox/traditional Judaism does not recognize conversions performed by rabbis who are not Orthodox.)

I guess what makes someone a cultural-only Jew is that they take pride in their Jewish heritage, but are not especially religious.
 
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