Do you have ANY questions for us Catholics PART #3

[PJM]

That wasn’t your claim; you claimed that either Christ lied or the Bible is in grave error.

So now we’ve got: today, baptism is normative; prior to Christ, it was not. (Important distinction.)

Ahh, there we go – you’ve modified your stance: yes, baptism is not necessarily the only way, but it is the normative way. Much better exposition on the Church’s teaching.

NO

PLEASE READ post #78

 

[PJM]

And it also tells us to honor our mother and father.

Jesus also tells the Pharisees, directly, “For God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘Whoever curses father or mother shall die.’” (Mt 15:4)

So, what are you claiming? Are you saying that Jesus meant “literally bear hatred for them in your heart, but don’t curse them; despise them, but honor them”? Seriously… that’s what you’re going with?

If not, then it’s necessary to find an analysis that makes these statements consistent with one another. Let’s find your quote in Scripture:

But wait – there’s more! This saying is reported, too, in Matthew!

Hmm… in Matthew, the saying makes it clear that it’s about “loving [parents] more than” loving Jesus. Gee… do you think that’s what it means in Luke, too? Nah… it makes more sense to rail that Jesus is being contradictory…

You prefer the conclusion that the Bible itself isn’t internally consistent? Good luck with that one…

You keep going back to these. We’ve explained them thoroughly. Is that the best you’ve got, in order to show a lack of internal consistency in the Bible? C’mon, now…

**As a FYI to the poster you’re dialoging with:

My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible? Which BTW is a Catholic Book.

Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another
Verse, passage or teaching:

Were this even the slightest possibility;[it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or lean Christ Faith”**

Blessings,
PJM

 

[Tomdstone]

John 3:5
[5] Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

My friend could Jesus [GOD] have been more c;ear or precise in this amndate:shrug:I don’t think that Catholics take that literally because Catholics believe that a Jew can be saved.

 

[PJM]

Well, let’s just be careful not to contradict what is on the screen when we self label ‘practicing catholic’ and start posts with insults. That doesn’t inform, it turns away.

Then continue posts by building strawmen using one liners out of context.

I don’t like to cut up posts for this reason. Comprehending a post is taking into consideration the whole.

Take care,

Mike

(oh, and I do agree, conversion is God’s work, conversation is for us)

Mile share GOD"S truth carefully & prayerfully, and there will be no need for contradiction.

God Bless you,
PJM

 

[PJM]

Thanks Patrick,

The red is the key.

The context of the teaching is like a Board debating a topic and what is necessary for the business.

When the Chairman says ‘enough debate, this is the rule’.

Obviously, that is in the context of the business and those that desire to be involved.

So - what does this mean for those that are not Baptized because they think having a personal relationship with Jesus in their heart is enough?

Well it means they should read Matt 25 from top to bottom ( which shows there is a ‘how’ to do things, and that it matters to God) and take the stern teaching of Jesus previously listed in your earlier post seriously. While they are still breathing and know the teaching is there.

The souls I worry about Patrick, are the ones that think they have it made.

Thus the reason I want to ground the teaching that God is God, and we are not, first.

Take care,

Mike

On THIS my friend, we can agree:thumbsup: BUT only GOD can make the Just-Judgment call

 

[clem456]

I don’t think that Catholics take that literally because Catholics believe that a Jew can be saved.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm
Generally speaking on salvation:
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

 

[PJM]

I don’t think that Catholics take that literally because Catholics believe that a Jew can be saved.

‘’

Certainly Jews CAN be saved; but being a Jew is NOT a passport to heaven by the nature of heredity itself

**FROM the Catholic Catechism:
1260 **“Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.” Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

**847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation**

God Bless,
PJM

 

[PJM]

Totally agree here.

What started this line of back and forth was a post NOT to you, which now that I look back on it, I think you might have thought was directed to you.

Oh and I do agree truth is 1, I defend using this a lot.

This Baptism discussion here has me thinking about another thread to start on Baptism’s other HUGE purpose that is constantly overlooked because of the focus on OS.

But we’ll see if it pops up in here first.

Take care,

mike

PAX Mike

 

[PJM]

Just out of personal curiosity, can you provide a link to at least one parish, anywhere in the USA that has different courses like you have said? I live in a major city and explored this before I went through and was told the other courses like RCIC had been eliminated and everything was meshed into one course.

Thanks.

If I may interject here
I don’r think “different course” was the intended message:shrug:

Pastors can and at rare times do permit selected candidates depending on their PRIOR faith-formation, and very often tied to individual instruction; to by-pass the otherwise required RCIA program.

 

[clem456]

Just out of personal curiosity, can you provide a link to at least one parish, anywhere in the USA that has different courses like you have said? I live in a major city and explored this before I went through and was told the other courses like RCIC had been eliminated and everything was meshed into one course.

Thanks.

We have RCIA as the normative program for becoming Catholic.
Catechumens and candidates for full communion both go through the same program. It is a practical matter more than anything else.
However, it is not necessary for a person to go through that program exactly.
We have had people who cannot make it to the sessions meet with the priest instead.

 

[Gorgias]

Hmmm,

Obviously Christ TAUGHT this as a mandate while still on earth. The Bible is replete with lessons to be Baptized while Christ was still alive. So IF as you suggest Baptism did not take effect until AFTER the Resurrection? How do you exp,ain these:

They’re explained easily enough: remember that there was the ‘baptism of John’ prior to the (sacramental) baptism of Jesus. This wasn’t ‘baptism’ as we know it (that is, it did not forgive sins, have an effect on ‘original sin’, or imbue sanctifying grace), but was a ‘baptism’ that indicated a repentance and a desire for the kingdom of God. Jesus did not command that all receive this baptism. (In fact, in the Acts of the Apostles, we see that, when people who had received this ‘baptism’ presented themselves to the Church, the apostles hastened to ensure that they receive a ‘real’ (i.e., sacramental) baptism. So, we have baptism that precedes the sacrament (which is not required), and baptism that is, in fact, commanded and is sacramental:

Pre-sacramental baptism (that is, a ‘washing’):

Mark 1:4
John was in the desert baptizing, and preaching the baptism of penance, unto remission of sins.

John 3:22After these things Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judea: and there he abode with them, and baptized.

Matthew 3:16
And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him

Luke 3:21
Now it came to pass, when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also being baptized and praying, heaven was opened;

Acts Of Apostles 1:22
Beginning from the baptism of John, until the day wherein he was taken up from us, one of these must be made a witness with us of his resurrection.

(Really, this reference in Acts is just a reference to a period of time – here, the time period is “from the baptism of John until the day [of his Ascension]”.)

References to sacramental baptism:

Romans 6:4
For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life.

So, as you point out, sacramental baptism is time-bound: it came into effect only after Jesus’ resurrection.

 

[Gorgias]

Pastors can and at rare times do permit selected candidates depending on their PRIOR faith-formation, and very often tied to individual instruction; to by-pass the otherwise required RCIA program.

Actually, RCIA is not required of candidates seeking full communion with the Church. In fact, the ritual book explicitly warns that candidates should not be lumped in with catechumens. In the section “Reception of Baptized Christians” in the “Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults”, the introduction says:

473 The rite is so arranged that no greater burden than necessary (see Acts 15:28) is required for the establishment of communion and unity. (Footnote: See Vatican Council II, Decree on Ecumenism Unitatis redintegratio, no. 18.)

477 The baptized Christian is to receive both doctrinal and spiritual preparation, adapted to individual pastoral requirements, for reception into the full communion of the Catholic Church. … Anything that would equate candidates for reception with those who are catechumens is to be absolutely avoided.

478 … In all cases, however, discernment should be made regarding the length of catechetical formation required for each individual candidate for reception into the full communion of the Catholic Church.

In other words, in the case of baptized non-Catholic Christians who wish to enter into full communion with the Catholic Church, there is no 'required RCIA program’.

 

[Gorgias]

Just out of personal curiosity, can you provide a link to at least one parish, anywhere in the USA that has different courses like you have said?

Do a Google search on “candidates for full communion not RCIA”. You’ll see diocesan pages that speak to what the Church asks, and articles on the notion. Here’s the problem, though: in each parish – if you’re lucky! – there’ll be one RCIA team, on whose shoulders falls all Christian initiation of adults. They usually aren’t filled with people twiddling their thumbs, waiting for something to do; usually, they have their hands full with their current RCIA ‘class’. So, they usually don’t have the time to (a) develop an alternate program, (b) staff such a program, or (c) put people through an alternate process. Sadly, many are told just “to go through RCIA, like everyone else.” However, I’ve seen parishes where, on a case-by-case basis, a person or two (or three) undergoes an abbreviated program – whether led by a parish priest or another catechist – that leads to reception into the Church (either outside of or during the Easter Vigil). These typically aren’t advertised or planned, but tend to happen on an ad-hoc basis.

I live in a major city and explored this before I went through and was told the other courses like RCIC had been eliminated and everything was meshed into one course.

I’m sorry that this is what you experienced. Either someone was telling you what they were doing at their own parish and inaccurately extrapolating to the whole Church, or your area is still struggling to come up with a program that meets the norms of the Church. In any case, my advice to the OP is simply to realize that, perhaps, she might be informed that a full program of RCIA isn’t what her parish does for candidates for full communion with the Church.

 

[clem456]

Actually, RCIA is not required of candidates seeking full communion with the Church. In fact, the ritual book explicitly warns that candidates should not be lumped in with catechumens. In the section “Reception of Baptized Christians” in the “Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults”, the introduction says:

In other words, in the case of baptized non-Catholic Christians who wish to enter into full communion with the Catholic Church, there is no 'required RCIA program’.

We do it as a practical matter as there are only so many program hours to go around. Candidates will attend sessions according to their needs/desires.

We are actually considering a program like this for Catholics. It is sorely needed,.

 

[PJM]

Actually, RCIA is not required of candidates seeking full communion with the Church. In fact, the ritual book explicitly warns that candidates should not be lumped in with catechumens. In the section “Reception of Baptized Christians” in the “Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults”, the introduction says:

In other words, in the case of baptized non-Catholic Christians who wish to enter into full communion with the Catholic Church, there is no 'required RCIA program’.

So the words “as necessary” are NOT an indication that the many errors that they have learned in the Protestant formation are just ot be ignored, or do we just leave that up to God:shrug:

In MY personal opinion, you’re not either fully or perhaps; correctly missing this critical reality

God Bless you, and thanks,

PJM

 

[ffg]

It seems like Baptism being ‘essential’ has been hammered, but nobody is asking ‘why?’.

Is it because of OS? Certainly it plays an important role, but a result of cleaning OS from the soul can also happen in an emergency situation for a non-baptized through absolution (say if you are really ill, or your plane is going down and you are lucky enough to have a priest on board).

So simply cleaning OS can’t be what makes it so essential, so what is it?

Baptism is a key to a door that is locked. A door that separates us from a relationship with God.

So, since everyone in Heaven has a relationship with God, that means that everyone in Heaven has had that door unlocked.

That is why it is essential - Heaven requires the unlocked door. Heaven requires a relationship with God.

We can’t lock or unlock the door ourselves. But we do have the ability to seek (or not) it’s unlocking because God loves us and love does not force.

So we need to understand…

1. All human souls in heaven had to have that door unlocked.

And

***2) It’s possible for the door to never be unlocked.

***Important note on #2 - This situation requires our approval as God loves, he does not force.

Now surely let’s not be minimalists. Getting the door unlocked is only step 1.

We can also reject God and a relationship with him, with an unlocked door.

Take care,

Mike

 

[PJM]

We have RCIA as the normative program for becoming Catholic.
Catechumens and candidates for full communion both go through the same program. It is a practical matter more than anything else.
However, it is not necessary for a person to go through that program exactly.
We have had people who cannot make it to the sessions meet with the priest instead.

AGREED

Thanks

 

[PJM]

Do a Google search on “candidates for full communion not RCIA”. You’ll see diocesan pages that speak to what the Church asks, and articles on the notion. Here’s the problem, though: in each parish – if you’re lucky! – there’ll be one RCIA team, on whose shoulders falls all Christian initiation of adults. They usually aren’t filled with people twiddling their thumbs, waiting for something to do; usually, they have their hands full with their current RCIA ‘class’. So, they usually don’t have the time to (a) develop an alternate program, (b) staff such a program, or (c) put people through an alternate process. Sadly, many are told just “to go through RCIA, like everyone else.” However, I’ve seen parishes where, on a case-by-case basis, a person or two (or three) undergoes an abbreviated program – whether led by a parish priest or another catechist – that leads to reception into the Church (either outside of or during the Easter Vigil). These typically aren’t advertised or planned, but tend to happen on an ad-hoc basis.

I’m sorry that this is what you experienced. Either someone was telling you what they were doing at their own parish and inaccurately extrapolating to the whole Church, or your area is still struggling to come up with a program that meets the norms of the Church. In any case, my advice to the OP is simply to realize that, perhaps, she might be informed that a full program of RCIA isn’t what her parish does for candidates for full communion with the Church.

THANKS, good information

 

[PJM]

It seems like Baptism being ‘essential’ has been hammered, but nobody is asking ‘why?’.

Is it because of OS? Certainly it plays an important role, but a result of cleaning OS from the soul can also happen in an emergency situation for a non-baptized through absolution (say if you are really ill, or your plane is going down and you are lucky enough to have a priest on board).

So simply cleaning OS can’t be what makes it so essential, so what is it?

Baptism is a key to a door that is locked. A door that separates us from a relationship with God.

So, since everyone in Heaven has a relationship with God, that means that everyone in Heaven has had that door unlocked.

That is why it is essential - Heaven requires the unlocked door. Heaven requires a relationship with God.

We can’t lock or unlock the door ourselves. But we do have the ability to seek (or not) it’s unlocking because God loves us and love does not force.

So we need to understand…

1. All human souls in heaven had to have that door unlocked.

And

***2) It’s possible for the door to never be unlocked.

Not quite sure what YOU mean by “unlocked”

NOT everyone i heaven has been BAPTIZED

The OT people were circumcised which was the forerunner of the New Covenant command to be Baptized. + others as well] so if by reference you mean to imply that everyone i heaven HAD to be Baptized; the answer is NO.

Baptism is the NORM for the NT NEW Covenant. BUT there MIGHT be exceptions?

***Important note on #2 - This situation requires our approval as God loves, he does not force.

Now surely let’s not be minimalists. Getting the door unlocked is only step 1.

We can also reject God and a relationship with him, with an unlocked door.

Take care,

Mike

If your saying GET Baptized, we AGREE:thumbsup: If your saying someting else:shrug:

God Bless you,
PJM

 

[ffg]

Not quite sure what YOU mean by “unlocked”

NOT everyone i heaven has been BAPTIZED

The OT people were circumcised which was the forerunner of the New Covenant command to be Baptized. + others as well] so if by reference you mean to imply that everyone i heaven HAD to be Baptized; the answer is NO.

Baptism is the NORM for the NT NEW Covenant. BUT there MIGHT be exceptions?

If your saying GET Baptized, we AGREE:thumbsup: If your saying someting else:shrug:

God Bless you,
PJM

I think people can get hung up on verbiage.

The point is that the purpose of baptism is to allow for a fix to something that is broken. That Broken thing is a relationship with God.

Baptism then is the ‘key’ to unlocking the potential (door) to a relationship with God. (broken things stay broken without effort to repair)

Whether someone wants to call it baptism for simplicity, or something else to differentiate the normative from non, all people in Heaven would have a relationship with God.

All people start life with that relationship broken due to OS.

Thus, all people in Heaven had to have the door which is locked by OS, unlocked at some point to be able to accept the Love of God and return that love (be in relationship with God).

Further, if people in Heaven are in relationship with God, then baptism, or whatever someone wants to label the exceptions, which equates to the effects of baptism…

Is essential.

I thought we had nailed down the different forms for the exceptions as using the term ‘baptism’ because the effects of the term are necessary, so using one word is less complicated.

I hope that’s a little more clear.

Take care,

Mike