Do you have experience with courtship?

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So I’m reading the book Arms of Love right now. It’s a fiction about a young adult man and woman who “court” each other rather than “date”. In the book, they do not go on dates exclusively between themselves. While I like the ideas and understand the thought behind courting, to be honest it seems… distant to me, maybe unrealistic.

For example, the last relationship I was in…I live alone, she lived alone, both of our families were not nearby, not to mention neither of our families are exactly holy. We spent a lot of time alone together, it seemed inevitable. Which did lead to temptation, and some poor decisions.

I guess I’m looking to hear from people with experience in courting . I don’t know anybody who’s taken it as seriously as the people in this novel. If you did court, how were you able to limit your time alone with each other? How did you spend your time with each other? For example, it seems that dinner and a movie among yourselves would be off limits. Did it work - were you able to stop yourselves from being physical?

Is there anyone else who has had struggles with dating versus courting? This book has made me think of dating in a new way, but it seems extremely challenging

Thanks for any thoughts
 
So I’m reading the book Arms of Love right now. It’s a fiction about a young adult man and woman who “court” each other rather than “date”. In the book, they do not go on dates exclusively between themselves. While I like the ideas and understand the thought behind courting, to be honest it seems… distant to me, maybe unrealistic.

For example, the last relationship I was in…I live alone, she lived alone, both of our families were not nearby, not to mention neither of our families are exactly holy. We spent a lot of time alone together, it seemed inevitable. Which did lead to temptation, and some poor decisions.

I guess I’m looking to hear from people with experience in courting . I don’t know anybody who’s taken it as seriously as the people in this novel. If you did court, how were you able to limit your time alone with each other? How did you spend your time with each other? For example, it seems that dinner and a movie among yourselves would be off limits. Did it work - were you able to stop yourselves from being physical?

Is there anyone else who has had struggles with dating versus courting? This book has made me think of dating in a new way, but it seems extremely challenging

Thanks for any thoughts
“Courting” instead of dating was all the rage in conservative Evangelical circles in my teenage/college years, thanks to the popular new (at the time) book I Kissed Dating Goodbye. Courting proved to be unworkable for the most part, due to the lack of a coherent definition of what exactly “courting” is supposed to be, the legalistic rules that tended to surround the practice, and the awkwardness that the mentality tended to create between members of the opposite sex in some Christian circles.

There is nothing wrong with spending time alone together when dating someone. If it creates too much temptation for a particular couple, maybe they should keep their alone time to public places, where there is less temptation–that would be a prudential judgment on your part. It’s good to have a healthy mix of both “just us” time and time with friends and family.
 
“Courting” instead of dating was all the rage in conservative Evangelical circles in my teenage/college years, thanks to the popular new (at the time) book I Kissed Dating Goodbye. Courting proved to be unworkable for the most part, due to the lack of a coherent definition of what exactly “courting” is supposed to be, the legalistic rules that tended to surround the practice, and the awkwardness that the mentality tended to create between members of the opposite sex in some Christian circles.

There is nothing wrong with spending time alone together when dating someone. If it creates too much temptation for a particular couple, maybe they should keep their alone time to public places, where there is less temptation–that would be a prudential judgment on your part. It’s good to have a healthy mix of both “just us” time and time with friends and family.
Some still do try it though. I mean the Duggars and their particular brand of Christianity are still big into courting as a means of two young people moving toward marriage.
 
I personally disagree with parts of courtship (especially how the Duggars see it). While I believe in what the Church teaches about abstaining from sex until marriage, I think that if two consenting adults are considering marriage they should be able to face temptation without needing their parents to be with them. I am not saying that if a couple fails in resisting then they shouldn’t get married, but a person’s entire life will be filled with temptations. If they are discerning marriage with someone, they should be working together to resist and overcome, and not rely on their parents (or someone else) to be with and supervise them.
 
Some still do try it though. I mean the Duggars and their particular brand of Christianity are still big into courting as a means of two young people moving toward marriage.
Hmm, that doesn’t always work out well.

I recall the episode of the Duggars where the daughter was meeting her young man after he’d been working abroad. She was so excited, they ran to meet each other and embraced, quite naturally - it’s a normal human response and there’s nothing inappropriate about a hug. However, evidently they shouldn’t have hugged like other people do in public, they should have performed an awkward side-to-side-not-touching embrace because they were only courting.

It’s this suggestion that there’s something smutty or wrong in innocent demonstrations of affection and happiness that makes me wince. It’s weird, quite honestly and it’s not healthy, IMO. Even our priest hugs parishioners he knows!
 
So I’m reading the book Arms of Love right now. It’s a fiction about a young adult man and woman who “court” each other rather than “date”. In the book, they do not go on dates exclusively between themselves. While I like the ideas and understand the thought behind courting, to be honest it seems… distant to me, maybe unrealistic.

For example, the last relationship I was in…I live alone, she lived alone, both of our families were not nearby, not to mention neither of our families are exactly holy. We spent a lot of time alone together, it seemed inevitable. Which did lead to temptation, and some poor decisions.

I guess I’m looking to hear from people with experience in courting . I don’t know anybody who’s taken it as seriously as the people in this novel. If you did court, how were you able to limit your time alone with each other? How did you spend your time with each other? For example, it seems that dinner and a movie among yourselves would be off limits. Did it work - were you able to stop yourselves from being physical?

Is there anyone else who has had struggles with dating versus courting? This book has made me think of dating in a new way, but it seems extremely challenging

Thanks for any thoughts
I think one would tend to be on their best behavior in the presence of a third party, during courtship, and unacceptable attitudes and actions would not be obvious, until after the wedding when it is too late. The goal should be for young people to control themselves and not have to be watched by someone else to do the right thing.
 
IMHO, I think if the couple is “alone” in public, temptation will be much less. Call it “lead us not into temptation” or avoiding the near occasion of sin. Very few people are strong enough to resist temptation despite the best of intentions.
 
So I’m reading the book Arms of Love right now. It’s a fiction about a young adult man and woman who “court” each other rather than “date”. In the book**, they do not go on dates exclusively between themselves**.
This particular aspect is at best, impractical, at worst, might actually prevent you from actually getting involved in a serious relationship leading to marriage.

If you want to marry, you must be willing to form an exclusive relationship with a woman. You have to spend time with the person, go on dates, find out about them and discuss both of your hopes and dreams for the future. Whatever the advantages of “courting”, if you’re not willing to form an exclusive relationship with a woman then that, in this day and age, would suggest that you’re perhaps not interested in marriage at this time. (Or “keeping your options open”)

Temptation will always be there for dating couples. You just have to discern the situations that will lead to temptation and possibly sin, and avoid them.
 
I’ve seen courting work and know of couples that got married though courting.

But I’ve never known Catholics who did it.

Courtship always takes a great deal of community involvement. Unfortunately young singles in Catholic Church are treated more often than not as a resource for ministries instead of group that needs it. Until such time the Church actually starts treating young singles as a priority courting will probably never work for Catholics.
 
I’ve seen courting work and know of couples that got married though courting.

But I’ve never known Catholics who did it.

**Courtship always takes a great deal of community involvement. **Unfortunately young singles in Catholic Church are treated more often than not as a resource for ministries instead of group that needs it. Until such time the Church actually starts treating young singles as a priority courting will probably never work for Catholics.
I agree with the bolded part. It’s not something a couple can do on their own without a community that supports it.
 
I’ve seen courting work and know of couples that got married though courting.

But I’ve never known Catholics who did it.

Courtship always takes a great deal of community involvement. Unfortunately young singles in Catholic Church are treated more often than not as a resource for ministries instead of group that needs it. Until such time the Church actually starts treating young singles as a priority courting will probably never work for Catholics.
The Church isn’t a matchmaker though. It’s not up to Church communities to organise the love lives of individuals. It’s up to individuals themselves. The community should encourage marriage as a worthy vocation. But this idea of courtship seems strange to me.

What is the point of courting multiple women? How is that a good preparation for marriage? Maybe I’m misunderstanding but could someone define “courtship” more solidly?
 
The Church isn’t a matchmaker though. It’s not up to Church communities to organise the love lives of individuals. It’s up to individuals themselves. The community should encourage marriage as a worthy vocation. But this idea of courtship seems strange to me.

What is the point of courting multiple women? How is that a good preparation for marriage? Maybe I’m misunderstanding but could someone define “courtship” more solidly?
Here’s my take (and this is very distinct from what people try to do with modern courtship):

Courtship is the entire period of dating somebody up to the time of your marriage. If you get engaged and married, it was a courtship. If you don’t marry that person, it was just dating…

The mistake people make nowadays is believing that you can just announce, “We’re courting now!” which is making things a lot more goal-oriented than they ought to be before you know that there is going to be an engagement. It just creates a separate zone of pre-engagement, rather than a discernment period (which is what dating is, idealy).
 
Here’s my take (and this is very distinct from what people try to do with modern courtship):

Courtship is the entire period of dating somebody up to the time of your marriage. If you get engaged and married, it was a courtship. If you don’t marry that person, it was just dating…

The mistake people make nowadays is believing that you can just announce, “We’re courting now!” which is making things a lot more goal-oriented than they ought to be before you know that there is going to be an engagement. It just creates a separate zone of pre-engagement, rather than a discernment period (which is what dating is, idealy).
Is that not just semantics?
The traditional meaning of courtship didn’t rely on whether the couple married. I don’t see why dating shouldn’t be goal oriented, the point of dating is to discern marriage with a person, is it not?
I would say that there is a de facto pre-engagement period. Engagement should still be a period of discernment, but it would be unusual for a couple to not be quite sure they want to marry each other after they’re engaged.

That still doesn’t answer my question though. The definition of courtship according to the OP seems to allow for “multiple courtships”? What’s with that?
 
I agree, Adam, that a courtship doesn’t depend if it ends in marriage or not. From what I understand, you could have multiple courtships, but not at the same time. For example, I could court a girl, decide not to marry her, then court another afterwards.

Here’s a link you may find helpful as to defining courtship:
catholicism.org/courtship-the-chaste-preparation-for-holy-matrimony.html

From what I’ve picked up, the essential elements of courting are:
  • Romantic interest between 2 people (man and woman)
  • Both believe in marriage and are deciphering if the other is to be their spouse
  • An emphasis to spend time with community and family - time alone is limited
  • Physical intimacy is limited - nothing beyond holding hands or short kisses
  • There is a definite time limit to courting - it’s at most around 6 months-2 years. You wouldn’t say you’ve been courting someone for 5 years - by that time you’d have either decided to marry or not marry
 
I agree, Adam, that a courtship doesn’t depend if it ends in marriage or not. From what I understand, you could have multiple courtships, but not at the same time. For example, I could court a girl, decide not to marry her, then court another afterwards.

Here’s a link you may find helpful as to defining courtship:
catholicism.org/courtship-the-chaste-preparation-for-holy-matrimony.html

From what I’ve picked up, the essential elements of courting are:
  • Romantic interest between 2 people (man and woman)
  • Both believe in marriage and are deciphering if the other is to be their spouse
  • An emphasis to spend time with community and family - time alone is limited
  • Physical intimacy is limited - nothing beyond holding hands or short kisses
  • There is a definite time limit to courting - it’s at most around 6 months-2 years. You wouldn’t say you’ve been courting someone for 5 years - by that time you’d have either decided to marry or not marry
How do you decide to court a particular individual? Why not have a lower pressure system (let’s call it “dating”) to get to know people before getting serious (let’s call that “courting”)?

I just don’t think that the average contemporary person has a large enough pool of acquaintance that they know well enough to know who they want to court. Also, there’s the well-documented problem that courting makes romantic approaches too high-pressure for the person being approached–after all, the bolt of lightning doesn’t necessarily hit two people at the same time. Sam may be ready to marry Suzie RIGHT NOW, but Suzie hasn’t had a chance to warm up to Sam yet. In practice, you wind up with a situation where nobody has a chance to get to know other people of the opposite sex, because any social interactions (no matter how minor) are so high-pressure.

Here’s a good Protestant video critique (by an adorable video blogger) of some problems with courtship:

youtube.com/watch?v=pwA6_XyvLFU
 
I agree, Adam, that a courtship doesn’t depend if it ends in marriage or not. From what I understand, you could have multiple courtships, but not at the same time. For example, I could court a girl, decide not to marry her, then court another afterwards.

Here’s a link you may find helpful as to defining courtship:
catholicism.org/courtship-the-chaste-preparation-for-holy-matrimony.html

From what I’ve picked up, the essential elements of courting are:
  • Romantic interest between 2 people (man and woman)
  • Both believe in marriage and are deciphering if the other is to be their spouse
  • An emphasis to spend time with community and family - time alone is limited
  • Physical intimacy is limited - nothing beyond holding hands or short kisses
  • There is a definite time limit to courting - it’s at most around 6 months-2 years. You wouldn’t say you’ve been courting someone for 5 years - by that time you’d have either decided to marry or not marry
OK, I’m reading your link. Some thoughts:
  1. The date for 17-year-old high schoolers that Brother Andre Marie describes (movie plus dinner) has not happened like that for a long, long time. I was in high school in the late 1980s/very early 1990s, and nobody dated like that. In our area, it was either officially boyfriend and girlfriend or nothing–and there weren’t necessarily actual dates. In college it was similar–a handful of boyfriends and girlfriends–but no actual Saturday night dates happening. And nowadays, my understanding is that there are a lot fewer official boyfriend/girlfriend relationships. That seems to be the pattern until after college for young adults, when dating reappears as a possibility, perhaps facilitated by the internet–“online dating”.
  2. I think the age is actually a source of trouble in these discussions–that when people think of successful courtship, they are imagining teenagers and very young adults, rather than imagining how busy working professionals living far from home would manage to pull off a formal Joshua Harris-approved courtship. Note how big a role the parents play in Brother Andre Marie’s preferred version. Think how many CAFers do not have parents willing or capable of occupying that role or even in the same city or state…
Very few of the married people on CAF would be married if we had to use Brother Andre Marie’s methods–for one thing, it often happens that there is hostility from parents for very little reason. My husband and I faced one set of hostile parents as a 20-something couple, and I have to say that Brother Andre Marie’s preferred method gives me the shivers. I think we’d been married 14 years and were expecting our third child before the holdout parent softened up. A lot of people have WEIRD families.

I’m all for going slow for high school students with regard to dating (and “slow” might mean not doing it at all–I’m totally fine with that for my kids) and college is still a bit murky because there is usually a lack of a pool of marriage-minded peers, but a 20-something really ought to be able to safely go to dinner with a person of the opposite sex.
  1. I think Brother Andre Marie has some good advice for parents of high schoolers, but this is not something that the kids themselves can pull off. And it will be less helpful for college students and young professionals.
Also, this is a little naive, as well as potentially dangerous:

“Maybe next Saturday night, a similar scene will take place at his house, or perhaps the two families will get together for something, or maybe the two will be allowed to go together to a social function, but they will spend most of their time with family. After all, Maurice and Erika want to see how the other behaves in the home setting, since they are strongly considering marrying each other and are both eligible to do so.”

People behave differently in groups than they do when speaking to just one person and differently around their parents, and there may be some nasty surprises in store for either Maurice or Erika if they marry without having spend substantial time together. See, for example, Josh and Anna Duggar. Sometimes people are “good” not because they are good, but because they are being watched, which means that they aren’t good at all.

Also, the shy may be especially penalized under this system.
  1. Also, what if either Maurice or Erika doesn’t like board games (or whatever the chosen family fun is)? The one who doesn’t enjoy the activity won’t appear to good advantage and may be bored by the activity, even though they are actually a perfect match. I know that I personally might get through an occasional night of board games, but every single Saturday? :eek:
  2. “While dating is a twentieth-century invention, courtship is ancient. It is the way young men and women prepared for marriage.”
My reading of Jane Austen suggests that things were rather more elastic in early 19th century England. Also, that there would be a phase of “just visiting” followed by “interested and the family knows” followed by engagement, followed by marriage. The families would do a LOT of hospitality and social events to encourage their young people to pair off. It wasn’t a matter of showing up, announcing, “I want to court your daughter” and off we go–if anything, that’s more Mr. Collins’ style, and that was not a big success.
  1. I think Brother Andre Marie misunderstands the usage of the word “courtship” here–in the quotations he is using, it means the phase preceding marriage, rather than some special I-Kissed-Dating-Goodbye process.
  2. Of course the Hindus don’t date–they often do arranged marriage.🤷
OK, I’ll cut this off as it’s getting long.
 
Here’s more on Br. Marie Andre’s ideas:

catholicism.org/courtship-the-chaste-preparation-for-holy-matrimony.html
  1. If the couple is not eligible to marry within a reasonable time — a year or so — then they should not court. In fact, they must not court.”
That’s pretty harsh and a very restrictive timetable. Also, isn’t it very likely that by that point (within a year or so of being able to get married) that the young people will not be living at home? So, how do we do the Saturday-night-with-mom-and-dad-and-brothers-and-sisters thing? I don’t think we do.
  1. If someone begins dating at the age of sixteen or seventeen — as is common today — by the time he is really able to marry, he’s been through many of these kinds of relationships.”
I don’t think it is all that universal to have dated a lot from the teens on. A lot of CAFers are well into their 20s and have never been on a single date–and it’s not a great position to find oneself in. It often means being terrified of the opposite sex and lacking social polish.
  1. Since causal dating is not acceptable, what is, for those not yet ready to court? The answer is something which is in line with the general attraction which should be nurtured and disciplined during the teen years: group activities. Socializing here at the Sunday brunch, family cookouts, picnics, youth-group functions, concerts, sporting events, dances (of the acceptable sort — such as the occasional ones we have in our community). All of these are appropriate, as long as things are chaperoned.”
That sounds fine for teenagers, but 1) this is something that families and schools would have to organize and 2) it isn’t always available and 3) the college graduate will usually not find that they have a lot of this kind of activity available. In fact, that’s one of the biggest complaints that you will hear on CAF.
  1. Some may object that this keeps young men and young women ignorant of one another. I answer that this is good. They should be so ignorant until the time for that knowledge is right.
No, it’s not.

I have more quibbles, but the basic problem with Br. Andre Marie’s views is that he (at the same time) wants to delay courtship until a year or so before marriage is feasible, but at the same time wants it to happen under family auspices. This will be unworkable for nearly all young adults.
 
Is that not just semantics?
The traditional meaning of courtship didn’t rely on whether the couple married. I don’t see why dating shouldn’t be goal oriented, the point of dating is to discern marriage with a person, is it not?

I would say that there is a de facto pre-engagement period. Engagement should still be a period of discernment, but it would be unusual for a couple to not be quite sure they want to marry each other after they’re engaged.
I never courted but I do know people who did.

Ironically, though many courtship advocates state courting is superior to dating because both participants know what the ground rules are, that’s really far from the case.

Duggar (or Bates) style courtship with chaperones, no kissing until marriage, and suitors being pre-screened by Daddy, is really an extreme variation of courtship, not all who “court” follow such strict guidelines.

One of the women I knew who believed in courting, was far from a stereotypical homeschooled sheltered teenager expecting to move right from daddy’s house to hubby’s and have no aspirations other than being a wife and mother. She was in college, living on her own and planning to either become a lab scientist or a physician. “Courting” to her seemed not much different from “dating” except for (1) the focus on marriage as an end goal and (2) not having sex.

So yes, to some people all they mean by “courtship” is just “chaste dating to discern marriage” and it’s just about semantics.
That still doesn’t answer my question though. The definition of courtship according to the OP seems to allow for “multiple courtships”? What’s with that?
Well, I think most people who find “courting” to be superior to dating, do see the ideal marriage as one in which both spouses are not only physically “pure” at marriage but have never had any serious emotional attachments to anyone else before, either.

The idea is that previous emotional attachments are just as detrimental to a marriage as previous sexual relationships. They decry dating as promoting “serial monogamy” and surely not training young people to have long lasting relationships, but to merely move on to the next conquest once the initial infatuation wears off.

However, obviously reality is not so simple, and so most do not oppose “multiple courtships” in the sense not of seeing more than one suitor at a time, but out of a realization that not all courtships will work out and some people will wind up going through more than one courtship.

But the ideal is to still reserve “falling in love” to the engagement stage when they know marriage is around the corner, or even to the actual marriage, that the couple is supposed to maintain some emotional distance even during engagement.

I do think some courtship models are quite close to arranged marriage, in that they go beyond a simple acknowledgement that there is a level of emotional intimacy that should be reserved to marriage. They discourage couples from becoming emotionally attached at all, because they see courtship not as a time to bond emotionally, but is meant to be a “discernment period” that involves essentially a cold, dispassionate, objective evaluation of each other to see if they are a Godly Man or Woman, and if they would make a Good Spouse.

While the “no kissing” and other rules on physical contact are primarily meant to prevent sexual temptation, they are also meant to allow for this dispassionate “discernment”, at least theoretically.

Real Life is of course another matter. I recall reading on the Bates blog that the oldest son, the first to start courting, did follow extremely strict courtship rules, but had his heart broken anyway by his first love interest, and then they realized that it was essentially impossible to get to know someone well enough to determine if they are marriage material, without getting emotionally attached. I did see a few Bates episodes and their attitude toward courtships seemed much more relaxed than the Duggars.

As for the idea that courtships don’t go on for years like some dating relationships do.
Where the Bates are concerned, I don’t think any of their official courtships went beyond a year, maybe two if you count both the courtship and engagement period. BUT there is some semantics going on. Michaella supposedly pining for Brandon for many years before they actually started to court, is one example.

Also, Alyssa had a very short courtship but was “friends” with the man who became her husband for some time before. She married very young and her husband is much older, and it seemed the main reason they didn’t start the courtship earlier was because of this age difference.

Anyway, even without Reality TV examples, I think one problem with many forms of courtship, is that it assumes the courting couple has supportive family members who are very invested in the courtship, and also are actually qualified to help their kids in marriage discernment. Unfortunately, much like actual arranged marriage, not all parents are up to the task.

Some might be tempted to marry off their kids even if they’re not ready, or whitewash any issues the kids might have, because they’d rather have the kids married and making the best of it, especially in cultures where marriage is seen as something everyone HAS to do whether they find a perfect partner or not.

(Same things happens in actual arranged marriages, too. Some Orthodox Jews hide the presence of certain genetic diseases in their families, because telling the truth would put their kids at a disadvantage in the marriage market.)

And that’s not even getting into the issue of parents who are frankly abusive, mentally ill, or have other issues that would make them the very last people a young person should depend on for help with marriage discernments.
 
I’m always very leery of advice from a person who most likely has never even been on a date, much less “courted” someone. :rolleyes:

Teach your children to respect themselves, and closely monitor what type of friends they are hanging out with and pray for their future spouses.
But these “roadmaps for courting” tend to be very misleading, and so often, sorely disappointing. Because things just won’t work that way.
Friendships develop into more sometimes.
What’s so hard?
Be a good conversationalist, a nice person, a respectful person, reasonably witty, and kind.
And see if things don’t just work out swimmingly.
 
So yes, to some people all they mean by “courtship” is just “chaste dating to discern marriage” and it’s just about semantics.

[snip]

Well, I think most people who find “courting” to be superior to dating, do see the ideal marriage as one in which both spouses are not only physically “pure” at marriage but have never had any serious emotional attachments to anyone else before, either.

The idea is that previous emotional attachments are just as detrimental to a marriage as previous sexual relationships. They decry dating as promoting “serial monogamy” and surely not training young people to have long lasting relationships, but to merely move on to the next conquest once the initial infatuation wears off.

However, obviously reality is not so simple, and so most do not oppose “multiple courtships” in the sense not of seeing more than one suitor at a time, but out of a realization that not all courtships will work out and some people will wind up going through more than one courtship.

But the ideal is to still reserve “falling in love” to the engagement stage when they know marriage is around the corner, or even to the actual marriage, that the couple is supposed to maintain some emotional distance even during engagement.

[snip]

Anyway, even without Reality TV examples, I think one problem with many forms of courtship, is that it assumes the courting couple has supportive family members who are very invested in the courtship, and also are actually qualified to help their kids in marriage discernment. Unfortunately, much like actual arranged marriage, not all parents are up to the task.
Yes.

It’s very questionable that “courtship” can somehow avoid the problem (if it really is a problem) of having dated more than one person. How do we know that Maurice and Erika are going to hit it off and be a good match just because Maurice is the first person who has ever courted Erika? We don’t. It may be that there won’t just be Maurice–there may also be Jean Paul, Claude, Rene, Dominique, etc, all courting Erika. And if Maurice and Erika do get married (without that cavalcade of francophone suitors), it may be because there’s so much invested in them getting married, even if they aren’t actually a good match.

There’s no magic involved in just sticking the word “COURTSHIP” over our romantic relationships.

I shake my head over people who believe they can schedule “falling in love” and assume that if it hasn’t happened during courtship, it will definitely happen during engagement or marriage.
 
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