Do you have questions about Catholic beliefs & Practices

[PJM]

Pretty good P. I would add that a certain element was added to church governance or practice .The church instead of being persecuted by civil authority, now used civil, governmental authority , to enforce her edicts. Not sure, but if I recall correctly, the Council at Nicea, which the emperor called for, while being very inspired in her faith declarations and loved by all thru the ages, also anathematized any teachers of contrary views with civil enforcement and penalties.

One could also say Constantine laid the ground work for what happened with the next emperor, making Christianity the state religion. This is where some historians feel the church set herself up for more negative ramifications than positive ones. Perhaps the biggest is that this laid the groundwork for the next step, that of the church becoming more of a civil institution, even power broker, in the vacuum created by the partial fall of the Roman Empire. Again, some good consequences but also some not so good.(Consider Peter and most popes before this were martyred and lived pious, spiritually concerned lives and popes thereafter increasingly also concerned with temporal matters, even having ‘armies’).

Thanks so much Benhur!
Good topic.

Blessings

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Michael68 View Post
Can you please explain what Jesus was talking about when he said “Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them and whose sins you retain are retained” John 20:22-23. How can this happen if they weren’t hearing confessions?

The REPLY

Hi M,

Not sure, but are you asking if they heard confessions? It seems that this is assumed that they did. It also seems some say it must be* implied* but that it is* not explicit* in scripture that they did or would. Another words, do we interpret scripture by how others did before us and or by tradition ? We have it today, therefore it must have been from the beginning,if even in a base form ?

Also, are you sure you have not read or understood the answer to your question ? I thought someone posted the rebuttal, but I am not sure. What is your understanding of ‘our’ interpretation ?

Blessings

I missed Michael68 point.

We need to keep in mind that that Bible was not fully authored until the end the 1st or very early part if the 2nd Century. And She was severely persecuted by both the Romans and some of the Jews. So we have allow for natural [with super-natural assistance] and allow time for the BODY of teaching to become the standard of the Church OFTEN [but not always based on the bible]

It was clearly understood that all sins [PRIOR TO / BUT not after Baptism] were forgiven. In that Baptism for the most part did NOT prevent future sins; it is extremely likely that some form of Confession was taking place; certainly NOT in its current historical form. At first confessions were PUBLIC and penances were extreme including separation from the church for a period of time.

Remember **John chapters 20 & 21 ** tell us [LOGICALLY] and historically that NOT everything is in the bible

 

[PJM]

I’m confused about free will and God’s omniscience. If He knows what’s coming, then do we really have free will?

Two points to remember here:

[1] Time does NOT exist for God who call’s Himself the “GREAT I AM”

Exodus 3:14
“God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.”

This name MEANS “always” part; present and future

[2] God’s “foreknowledge” IS NOT to be confused with God’s intent, desire or Will. It ONLY means that He IS aware of it; NOT that he is the CAUSE of it.

Does that answer your question? If not please let me know.

 

[PJM]

As a non-catholic I would say purgatory does not exist. I think Catholics will say there is.

And dear friend Catholics say that it exist BECAUSE God and the bible say it exist.

Keep in mind that NOT everything is included in the bible [John 20:30-31 & 21: 24-24]

The terms “Bible; Catholic and Protestant” among them; BUT like Purgatory they nevertheless ARE spoken about:thumbsup:

Each of these Bible-passages apply to Purgatory in some way.

Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, **to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it. **

**Rev. 21: 27 **B]“But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

**1John.3: 2 to 3 **“Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. And every one who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.”

[1 Cor. 3: 13-14** “each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done if the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. *** If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, [Purgatory] though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. ***

But the REAL problem here is Protestants accepting the theory [nothing more than that] of “imputed righteousness”; which is NOT God’s way to salvation.

**Then because of this held view **

A; misunderstanding of God’s very Nature [God can’t judge you on a different standard - basis] than He does me; & and sin & its nature is also misunderstood.

God HAS to be both Faith and Just and can be nothing less

All sin has a public nature and accrues GOD imposed “Temporal Punishment”; which too must be repaid in full so that the Soul is perfected; a requirement of entry into heaven. [it’s my hope that I get a few follow up questions from this posr] This punishment exist even AFTER sins have been RIGHTLY Confessed & Forgiven.

It’s a good question. Thank you for asking it

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Michael68 View Post
That’s what I’m trying to understand . What is your interpretation of John 20:20-23?

The REPLY

I believe post 1030 of “what do you find strange…” our previous thread had an answer. i would only add that I think the gift of discernment did not die out with apostles.

So we hear of forgiveness of sins often cited in scripture thru Christ and His shed blood, and faith in that, even unto baptism and as part of the great commission. And that by the power of the Holy Spirit and Christ’s authority. We do not here of admonition to go to the confessional. In fact, we have admonition to the opposite, confessing not in secrecy, but one to another, and the earliest tradition has it sometimes before the congregation, if fitting.

There is no one that denies that the greatest of remitting of sins is at baptism and or by the washing of regeneration by the Holy Ghost in scripture. I have no problem in associating John 20:23 with this.

Blessings

My [PJM’s] comments

Brilliant point because you fail to understand the totality of what Christ taught.

The assumption [and desired but non-existent-effects] if “imputed righteousness” misses several critical points regards salvation.

To begin with it has to overlook the 2 infallible rukes for RIGHT understanding of the Bible

[1] Any teaching or belief of matters of Faith beliefs and OR Morals; must in an absolute sense align fully with the Teachings of the CC.

Mt 10 1-2
Mt 16:18
Jn 17:16-20
Mt 28: 18-20
Jn 20:19-23 These teachings;simply are too critical to God’s PLAN for man’s salvation to be glossed to be, ignored and incorrectly understood.2 Peter 1: 16-21 &
3: 14-17

[2] Such a position not only fails to align with even what the Bible teaches; it ignores historical fact: It is an impossibility that God can error. On that point we agree [or do we?]

The man invented doctrine of “I.R.” dates from the early 16th Century;** some 1,500 YEARS after Catholicisms being Founded by Jesus Himself. ;**

It is factually and Morally impossible that God would have waited for Luther or Calvin to make know HIS way; HIS mandates and Commands. some 1,500 YEARS Later.

[3] No bible verse; passage or teaching has either the Power or the Authority to make void, invalidate or override any other verse, passage or teaching. Amen!

:[4]**

God Bless you!
Patrick**

 

[eazyduzit]

The Catechism refers to Purgatory as the final purification. . If you have ever been severely burned you have to remove the skin in order to allow normal circulation to resume It is called escharotomy it is very painful but in the end it feels good. It is the way I feel about purgatory We have an attraction to sin an attraction that attraction has to be purged from us. When it is done we will fill free and perfect.

How will it be purged if one received a plenary indulgence and there is no time served?

 

[PJM]

This is not an official answer that i give.
Yes there is suffering in purgatory.
The best description i can use for the type of suffering is… say one has a favourite shirt and it gets destroyed and one feels sad for the loss of that shirt. It would the sense of loss for something. The greater the attachment the greater the sense of loss.

No my friend this is wrong. You’re reply is FAR more appropriate to HELL than Purgatory

Hell’s MAIN suffering stems from a FULLY knowledge of the loss of the Beatific Vision forever!

Purgatory on the other hand is for Soul’s assuredly IN-ROUTE to Heaven BUT in need of purification; as ONLY Perfect Souls that emulate God can be admitted into heaven:thumbsup:

God Bless you,
Patrick…

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by spedteacherita View Post
What happens to the people in Purgatory and those who haven’t died yet when Christ returns? There’s the verse that “the dead in Christ will rise first.”

I did hear a priest on a Catholic channel say that there would be no purgatory when Christ returns?

Thanks and blessings!

Rita

The REPLY

Well, there is nothing I believe that is officially taught in this regard. I believe though that it is safe to say that God will see to it that all of those in Purgatory will have finished their purgation by the time Our Lord Jesus comes again.

May God bless you abundantly and forever!

Just a further thought here [PJM]

All the Souls in Purgatory will be released

And this IS a part of the FINAL Judgment [there are 2: Judgments: At the instant of death the Immediate Judgment & at the End Times the Final Judgment where previous judgment is affirmed [NEVER changed], and the reuniting of our NOW immoral and glorified bodies emulating Jesus’ Resurrected Body are again united forever!

In that final judgment the Souls left on earth at that time will be immediately judged worthy of the Beatific Vision [Being WITH Jesus] or Eternal hell. There will then be no further need for Purgatories Soul-cleansing mission; as God has NOW conquared Satan and ALL evils. Amen:thumbsup:

 

[Michael68]

The REPLY

Just a further thought here [PJM]

All the Souls in Purgatory will be released

And this IS a part of the FINAL Judgment [there are 2: Judgments: At the instant of death the Immediate Judgment & at the End Times the Final Judgment where previous judgment is affirmed [NEVER changed], and the reuniting of our NOW immoral and glorified bodies emulating Jesus’ Resurrected Body are again united forever!

In that final judgment the Souls left on earth at that time will be immediately judged worthy of the Beatific Vision [Being WITH Jesus] or Eternal hell. There will then be no further need for Purgatories Soul-cleansing mission; as God has NOW conquared Satan and ALL evils. Amen:thumbsup:

AMEN!!!

 

[PJM]

The Catechism refers to Purgatory as the final purification. . If you have ever been severely burned you have to remove the skin in order to allow normal circulation to resume It is called escharotomy it is very painful but in the end it feels good. It is the way I feel about purgatory We have an attraction to sin an attraction that attraction has to be purged from us. When it is done we will fill free and perfect.

That my friend is a very good point

But in addition to that is the necessary repayment of all unconfessed Venial sins as well as unpaid Temporal Punishment due that ALL sin accrues:thumbsup:.

 

[PJM]

How will it be purged if one received a plenary indulgence and there is no time served?

IF Any Soul is Blessed to di without any stain of sin and without any Temporal punishment due to sin; that Blessed Soul is then a saint:thumbsup:

 

[eazyduzit]

Can you please explain what Jesus was talking about when he said “Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them and whose sins you retain are retained” John 20:22-23. How can this happen if they weren’t hearing confessions?

First of all, it has to do with the HS. They are to be guided by Him. But the HS could not yet indwell believers individually until Jesus had ascended to the Father. He said receive ye (all) the HS as in community. V. 23, He says " Whosoever sins ye (all) remit…", so this is to be exercised as a community within the guidance of the HS.

But John also tells us of the ordinary way of forgiveness for the individual in 1Jn2:1 “And If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” He is our advocate and we go to Him and not the Catholic priest. According to Heb7:25 He is also our intercessor and not the priest.

In Ps. 51, King David confesses his sin directly to God and receives forgiveness.

 

[eazyduzit]

IF Any Soul is Blessed to di without any stain of sin and without any Temporal punishment due to sin; that Blessed Soul is then a saint:thumbsup:

Then he would have no need for an indulgence. Why then does the CC offer them?

 

[Michael68]

First of all, it has to do with the HS. They are to be guided by Him. But the HS could not yet indwell believers individually until Jesus had ascended to the Father. He said receive ye (all) the HS as in community. V. 23, He says " Whosoever sins ye (all) remit…", so this is to be exercised as a community within the guidance of the HS.

But John also tells us of the ordinary way of forgiveness for the individual in 1Jn2:1 “And If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” He is our advocate and we go to Him and not the Catholic priest. According to Heb7:25 He is also our intercessor and not the priest.

In Ps. 51, King David confesses his sin directly to God and receives forgiveness.

The Sacrament of Confession is within the community. The Sacrament is directly to God through Jesus Christ.

 

[fbl9]

No my friend this is wrong. You’re reply is FAR more appropriate to HELL than Purgatory

Hell’s MAIN suffering stems from a FULLY knowledge of the loss of the Beatific Vision forever!

Purgatory on the other hand is for Soul’s assuredly IN-ROUTE to Heaven BUT in need of purification; as ONLY Perfect Souls that emulate God can be admitted into heaven:thumbsup:

God Bless you,
Patrick…

i see, thanks

 

[eazyduzit]

The Sacrament of Confession is within the community. The Sacrament is directly to God through Jesus Christ.

Then there is no need or reason for a Catholic priest if it is directly to God as promised in 1Jn.

 

[benhur]

The Sacrament of Confession is within the community. The Sacrament is directly to God through Jesus Christ.

Not the Sacrament is directly to God through Jesus Christ* through the priest *? Otherwise, amen to your underlined (except the need for word “Sacrament”). Of course a Sacrament needs a priest, so my question is mute, but then begs the question of your definition of “direct”.

Blessings

 

[Reuben_J]

First of all, it has to do with the HS. They are to be guided by Him. But the HS could not yet indwell believers individually until Jesus had ascended to the Father. He said receive ye (all) the HS as in community. V. 23, He says " Whosoever sins ye (all) remit…", so this is to be exercised as a community within the guidance of the HS.

I think you have just in a way described the Sacrament of Confession.

 

[Reuben_J]

Then he would have no need for an indulgence. Why then does the CC offer them?

Not so sure of what you mean. Indulgence is offered for sinners. A saint is already in heaven, does not have to go through purgatory. He/she has no necessity for indulgence. Where do you get the idea, because that’s not Catholic teaching either.

 

[PJM]

How will it be purged if one received a plenary indulgence and there is no time served?

IF one dies with their soul “perfected” by a plenary indulgence; that soul would be immmediately heaven bound.

The question then is: WAS all of the specific demands of the Plenary indulgence met precisely as is needed to take full effect. And that friend is God’s decision.

God Bless you,

Patrick