Do you have questions about Catholic beliefs & Practices

[adrift]

Hi a,

Agreed. Yet we walk in the light we have been given. It could be the opposite of the old Bazooka Joe comic strip where Joe is looking for his lost keys under the street light. He is asked where did you drop them, and says over there (in the darkness). He then is asked why then are then you looking over here, and responds because that is where the light is.

I enjoy this and all of its incarnations. Thanks
I get lost in your post. So I am going to answer this way.

What I believe you are saying is that you see not evidence of Jesus establishing penance as a Sacrament. You base this on the observation that neither Jesus or His Disciples forgave sins, You made the statement that this was a new teaching. I am saying that the forgiveness of sins began in the OT. Jesus ministry talked about forgiving of sins for instance His parable of the prodigal son. You bring up an interesting argument that we don’t see them doing this during Jesus ministry. I guess you could make the same argument against the Eucharist. You seem to believe that Jesus wouldn’t bring up a new teaching at the end of His ministry. You assume that it was new teaching but neither the Eucharist nor penance was new. As I thought about this today, one thing came to mind. Forgiveness of sin can only be from God. Jesus could not have said one day your are going to start forgiving sins in the same way that He told them to baptize. They would have been scandalized. They only learned that Jesus was God gradually and with evidence.
I am not sure if you have addressed Jesus’ words. What was the point of breathing on them and telling them that the sins they forgave would be forgiven etc. ?
How this was exercised by them I don’t know. It is my understanding that it was more communal that developed into what we have today.

 

[Reuben_J]

…. Nothing explicit or implicit on post baptismal sin forgiveness. For sure sin forgiveness thru faith and baptism in the gospel is implied.

I disagree. Forgiveness through Baptism is not implied; it is stated.

*Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;*
….

PS- We are in agreement that the apostles had proper authority and are to be obeyed and followed, which these verses admonish and validate. Now just show me where the apostles taught, practiced post baptismal sacramental confession, beyond declarative forgiveness of sins thru faith in Christ or even baptism.

Forgiveness of sin through faith by Baptism is a given. The word of the Gospel on this cannot be any clearer.
As for post baptismal sacramental confession, in Mt 3:6, confession was mentioned together with baptism. ….…. and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

The need for Sacramental Confession in John 20:21-23 is pretty clear, no matter how one makes a spin of it.

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Whether it is in the Bible or not, the sending of the apostles to forgive sins after breathing on them the Holy Spirit clearly indicated what they were going to do, that was, forgave sins. I cannot imagine that they were not doing it after Jesus clearly sent them to do so (As the Father has sent me, even so I send you).

And would the confessing of sins stop with the apostles? Well, it does not make sense. The Church just began and it would not stop there. We know that there were successors to the apostles by the laying of hands.

 

[blanchardman]

And dear friend you hols this view because the Holy Spirit [proven by the thousands of differing faiths Protestant Churches which cannot be merely explained away] and are unable to understand correctly what the bible means; Even those like yourself supposedly trained to do so.]

Here’s the evidence of my calim:
**
Mt. 16: 18-19**
And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

John 17:17-21
[17] Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. [18] As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [19] And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [20] And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;

[21] That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

1Mt 28:18-20
[19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

My friend you continue in my prayers

No one part of the Bible can override, invalidate or void another part pf the bible Amen

Patrick, I have no “training”. I have not been a member of any religion in close to fifty years. I have not attended “church” regularly in over forty years.
I am not trying to convince

you of any doctrine. I am just trying to correct you on one statement. The concept of “imputed righteousness” is in the bible. You chose to quote from a bible in which the translator CHOSE a different, yet acceptable, word.
The words may be different but the meaning is the same.

 

[In_His_Grace]

Patrick, I have no “training”. I have not been a member of any religion in close to fifty years. I have not attended “church” regularly in over forty years.
I am not trying to convince

you of any doctrine. I am just trying to correct you on one statement. The concept of “imputed righteousness” is in the bible. You chose to quote from a bible in which the translator CHOSE a different, yet acceptable, word.
The words may be different but the meaning is the same.

The concept of “imputed righteousness” is in the bible.

It sure is and when Martin Luther came to understand the true meaning of justification he proclaimed "“When I discovered that, I was born again of the Holy Ghost. And the doors of paradise swung open, and I walked through.”.

 

[adrift]

Patrick, I have no “training”. I have not been a member of any religion in close to fifty years. I have not attended “church” regularly in over forty years.
I am not trying to convince

you of any doctrine. I am just trying to correct you on one statement. The concept of “imputed righteousness” is in the bible. You chose to quote from a bible in which the translator CHOSE a different, yet acceptable, word.
The words may be different but the meaning is the same.

Imputed righteousness is a term that I am unfamiliar with and so what I ask is that an understandable definition be given.

 

[blanchardman]

Imputed righteousness is a term that I am unfamiliar with and so what I ask is that an understandable definition be given.

God declares us righteous because we believe Him and His Word.

 

[PJM]

Mat 10:1-8-Zero mention of sin forgiveness, even as per your sacrament. It is implied as i have been saying , by preaching the Kingdom of God at hand-the gospel, which is about reconciliation or ‘forgiveness of sins’.[/WUOTE]

HERE my friend was the point I was TRYING to share:

[1] And having called his twelve disciples together,*** he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities. ***[2] And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter[8] Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give".

Again zero mention of forgiveness of sins, zero mention of forgiving post baptismal sins. At best you can say Peter and only Peter could decide how to permit or forbid the method of forgiveness, or anything else. Again, from my understanding of CC interpretation, this scripture was for Peter and not the other apostles.
Again, nothing to do with sin forgiveness

Jesus could not be more precise in HIS intent; nor be more explicit in HIS Command:shrug:

Blessings

PS- We are in agreement that the apostles had proper authority and are to be obeyed and followed, which these verses admonish and validate. Now just show me where the apostles taught, practiced post baptismal sacramental confession, beyond declarative forgiveness of sins thru faith in Christ or even baptism.

Repeated TWICE so that it ought NOT be missed

John 20: 29-31

[29] Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed. [30] Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book. [31] But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name".

John 21:24] “This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things, and hath written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. [25] But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written”.

WHY is this of CRITICAL need for understanding?

Because “faith” REQUIRES “FAITH”
**
Ecclesiasticus 25:16**
The fear of God is the beginning of his love: and the beginning of faith is to be fast joined unto it.

Heb. 11:1-2
[1] Now faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that [SOMETIMES] appear not. [2] For by this the ancients obtained a testimony."

A lack of faith my friend has to result in a corresponding LACK of right understanding.

Have you ever pondered or considered that God had [HAS] a precise reason for ALWAYS [you cannot show me even one bible exception] chosen JUST ONE for a very precise and VERY practical reason

God KNOWS that by giving just ONE RIGHT choice: God; Faith and Church there OUGHT to be far less chance of man not being able to actually discover HIS singular truths. YOU CAN"T miss this and expect to actually find that ONE true set of Faith believes. Amen!

Continued Blessings,

Patrick

[/QUOTE]

 

[Michael68]

God declares us righteous because we believe Him and His Word.

Demons also believe. Are they imputed with righteousness?

 

[PJM]

I enjoy this and all of its incarnations. Thanks
I get lost in your post. So I am going to answer this way.

What I believe you are saying is that you see not evidence of Jesus establishing penance as a Sacrament. You base this on the observation that neither Jesus or His Disciples forgave sins, You made the statement that this was a new teaching. I am saying that the forgiveness of sins began in the OT. Jesus ministry talked about forgiving of sins for instance His parable of the prodigal son. You bring up an interesting argument that we don’t see them doing this during Jesus ministry. I guess you could make the same argument against the Eucharist. You seem to believe that Jesus wouldn’t bring up a new teaching at the end of His ministry. You assume that it was new teaching but neither the Eucharist nor penance was new. As I thought about this today, one thing came to mind. Forgiveness of sin can only be from God. Jesus could not have said one day your are going to start forgiving sins in the same way that He told them to baptize. They would have been scandalized. They only learned that Jesus was God gradually and with evidence.
I am not sure if you have addressed Jesus’ words. What was the point of breathing on them and telling them that the sins they forgave would be forgiven etc. ?
How this was exercised by them I don’t know. It is my understanding that it was more communal that developed into what we have today.

What our FRIEND Benhur is saying VERY correctly Is that one MUST seek the [always singular per defined issue] truth where it is to be found.

What our friend benhur is MISSING though that even in the “LIGHT” it CAN"T be found without first turning to the SOURCE of Light; Christ; in humility and begging Him to send His Holy Spirit [self] to AID in finding what is lost.

God Bless you both!

 

[PJM]

I disagree. Forgiveness through Baptism is not implied; it is stated.

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;
….

Forgiveness of sin through faith by Baptism is a given. The word of the Gospel on this cannot be any clearer.

As for post baptismal sacramental confession, in Mt 3:6, confession was mentioned together with baptism. ….…. and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Ny friend Ruben, I don’t think our frie d benhur has ANY disagreement on this point; having discussed MANY times with him; his beliefs.

The need for Sacramental Confession in John 20:21-23 is pretty clear, no matter how one makes a spin of it.

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Whether it is in the Bible or not, the sending of the apostles to forgive sins after breathing on them the Holy Spirit clearly indicated what they were going to do, that was, forgave sins. I cannot imagine that they were not doing it after Jesus clearly sent them to do so (As the Father has sent me, even so I send you).

THIS though gets to the hear:heart:t of benhurs lack of faith and belief.

And would the confessing of sins stop with the apostles? Well, it does not make sense. The Church just began and it would not stop there. We know that there were successors to the apostles by the laying of hands.

Very good point.

Compare Mt 10:1-8 [especially verses 5 & 6] to Mark 6:14-15 & even more explicitly Mt. 28"18-20. At the last moments before His Ascension; Jesus 'GOD changes HIS Caoomand; HIS Mandate from “cf. Only to the house of Israel” TO "The ENTIRE WORLD. This can ONLY be accomplished through Succession:

Continual Blessings,

Patrick

 

[benhur]

]I disagree. Forgiveness through Baptism is not implied; it is stated.

Understand. I was not referring to the entire bible, bot but only the verses that PJM posted on the discussion of sacramental confession, in particular Mat 28:18-20,

" And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Hence I posted in response to just that verse(s) of Matt. 28:18-20; " Nothing explicit or implicit on post baptismal sin forgiveness. For sure sin forgiveness thru faith and baptism in the gospel is implied." Hope that makes more sense now.

Forgiveness of sin through faith by Baptism is a given. The word of the Gospel on this cannot be any clearer.

Correct, but would add that not by baptism itself but by faith and preceding repentance also.(“repent /believe, and be baptized”)

As for post baptismal sacramental confession, in Mt 3:6, confession was mentioned together with baptism. ….…. and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Well, still associated directly with baptism, and I would presume before.

The need for Sacramental Confession in John 20:21-23 is pretty clear, no matter how one makes a spin of it.

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Yes this and the James quotes are the only scriptures possibly dealing with "confession’’. What is not clear is which of our interpretations is the true meaning/practice . But yes PJM and others and I have hashed this verse(s) out . I have stated any interpretation is “implied” and certainly not explicit, or “crystal clear” etc… For sure we need forgiveness of sins, and for sure some will not have them forgiven, and for sure it has something to with the apostles, and lastly with their connection/relationship to the Holy Ghost.

Whether it is in the Bible or not, the sending of the apostles to forgive sins after breathing on them the Holy Spirit clearly indicated what they were going to do, that was, forgave sins. I cannot imagine that they were not doing it after Jesus clearly sent them to do so (As the Father has sent me, even so I send you).

Absolutely. And we know absolutely that they then went out after Pentecost in the Power of the Holy Ghost , and the Holy Ghost (who convicts of sin, judgement and righteousness) thru Peter’s words and consequent faith, repentance and baptism reconciled 3000 souls to God, complete with sin forgiveness. The gospel was preached, and folks got faith, repentance, and baptism with assurance of sin forgiveness, not by confessional or sacrament , but by authoritative ,Holy Spirit piercing declaration. We know this explicitly. What I am asking is where do we see repeated examples of such explicitness that we find in this type of forgiveness, to a post baptismal, sacramental sin forgiveness or retention ?(Again, only James and your John quote come close but still not explicit.) Can it be shown as explicitly that it is post baptismal, and that only the apostles /priests can do this, and not ‘one to another’ ?

Well, it does not make sense. The Church just began and it would not stop there. We know that there were successors to the apostles by the laying of hands.

Yes, but can you show me where early church, during the apostles lifetime and shortly thereafter, thru their successors, practiced/taught such sacramental, exclusively priestly, confessions ?

Blessings

 

[blanchardman]

Demons also believe. Are they imputed with righteousness?

I guess I should have more precise. People (humans) who believe (have faith in) God and His Word are declared righteous by God. Is that better?

 

[adrift]

God declares us righteous because we believe Him and His Word.

What do you mean by righteous?

 

[benhur]

I guess I should have more precise. People (humans) who believe (have faith in) God and His Word are declared righteous by God. Is that better?

I understand you .There is a faith that is genuine, is of God, and righteousness is imputed. That there are false faiths or faiths that fall short does not change the ‘real mccoy’.

Somehow Job was perfect , and Enoch and Elijah enough to be taken up etc., etc.
If not imputed, then what , worked at, or not on this side of life, or is it really that it is both imputed and worked out perfectly (Mary) ? Then why both for Mary but maybe not Job or Elijah etc. ?

Blessings

 

[PJM]

Patrick, I have no “training”. I have not been a member of any religion in close to fifty years. I have not attended “church” regularly in over forty years.
I am not trying to convince

you of any doctrine. I am just trying to correct you on one statement. The concept of “imputed righteousness” is in the bible. You chose to quote from a bible in which the translator CHOSE a different, yet acceptable, word.
The words may be different but the meaning is the same.

I do and I DID understand your point HOWEVER

** What you’re missing is are the two Infallible rues for RIGHT understanding of the bible;**

My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible? Which BTW is a Catholic Book.

Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another
Verse, passage or teaching:

Were this even the slightest possibility;[it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or lean Christ Faith”

John 21: 15-19 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.”** He said to him, "Feed my lambs." A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.”* He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” *** He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” **Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep.” **

This is further proven by:

Mt 16: 18-19

"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this [YOU PETER] rock I will build my church [SINGULAR], and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19]** And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven**. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, **]it shall be loosed also in heaven.
**/B]

Mt 28:19-20

“Going therefore,** YOU teach** ** them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU!: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

**2nd. Cor. 9: 13 **“Under the test of this service, you will glorify God by your obedience in acknowledging the gospel of Christ,”

The second infallible rule based on ALL of the above [and much more] is this:

If and when your understanding is not fully aligned with Christ Catholic Church [also biblical] it needs to be changed if your seeking GODS truth [always singular per defined issue.

My friend today RCC dates back provable historically and from the bible to Jesus and the Apostles themselves. It was 1,200 to 1,500 YEARS LATER that the Protestant reformation took place and Luther, Calvin and other invented their OWN versions of the Catholic Faith THAT THEY abandoned. It is literally impossible that God could or or would have or DID wait for these Protestants [means to PROTEST the teachings of the RCC] to INTRODUCE HID Faith beliefs which must absolutely be singular per defined issue. PLEASE Pray about this.

Consequently they lost for the MOST part; guidance from the Holy Spirit which accounts fore the thousands of DIFFERING sets of faith beliefs in a mere 500 years within the Protestant community. That in itself is indisputable evidence of GOD’s very-evident-position on the reformation which has no provable evidence in either the bible or history:shrug:

I’m delighted and very GRATEFUL for your joining our discussion. I suggest you read ALL of the post to gain a better understanding.

God Bless you,

Patrick .

 

[PJM]

It sure is and when Martin Luther came to understand the true meaning of justification he proclaimed "“When I discovered that, I was born again of the Holy Ghost. And the doors of paradise swung open, and I walked through.”.

Yea; and that was 1,500 YEARS AFTER Jesus Founded, taught and promised that the “gates of hell would never prevail against his established church” Mt 16:18

Then Jesus {GOD] Went even further [PLEASE READ ALL OF THE POST ON PAGES 11 & 12].AND actually; LITERALLY game Himself as the Personal WARRANTY of the literal- inability of HIS Church and HIS Faith beliefs to be in error.

JOHN 17: 17-20

** [17] Sanctify them in truth**. Thy word is truth. [18**] As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [19] And FOR THEM [only]do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [20] And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;

So dear frond whom do you choose to believe?

Luther [an apostate catholic-priest] some 1,500 years AFTER Jesus founded His RCC

The Bible & the RCC who teach the very same thing. When Jesus prayed for HIS Church; we must understand that GOD CANNOT DENY HIMSELF. Even as "jesus the man praying to His Fater; He remained ALWAYS God & God cannot deny himself. Amen!

Pray about it and ASK the Holy Spirit to help you decide

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

Imputed righteousness is a term that I am unfamiliar with and so what I ask is that an understandable definition be given.

It “means”

Christ by HIS Sacrifice has already done all the WORK. ALL [literally] one has to do is “profess Jesus as their Lord and Savior” and there are heaven bound" Further Many of them also beliefe that NOTHING thay can do can or WILL cause them to LOSE this once claimed “salvation.” ALL of which THEY profess to be biblically supported.

Among the very many OTHER contradicting bible teaches are these:

Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me**. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” Matt.5: 19 **“Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

My dear {SINCERELY} have I misstated your position in ANY way?

IF SO; PLEASE CORRECT ME so I don’t make this mistake again.

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[In_His_Grace]

I guess I should have more precise. People (humans) who believe (have faith in) God and His Word are declared righteous by God. Is that better?

“Furthermore, it is taught that we cannot obtain forgiveness of sin and righteousness before God through our merit, work, or satisfactions, but that we receive forgiveness of sin and become righteous before God out of grace for Christ’s sake through faith when we believe that Christ has suffered for us and that for his sake our sin is forgiven and righteousness and eternal life are given to us. For God will regard and reckon this faith as righteousness in his sight, as St. Paul says in Romans 3:21-26] and 4:5]” (Book of Concord, 38:1-40:3).

 

[PJM]

Demons also believe. Are they imputed with righteousness?

THANKS!

And it’s even biblical

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Reuben J;13564347

I disagree. Forgiveness through Baptism is not implied; it is stated.

REPLY BY benhur

Understand. I was not referring to the entire bible, bot but only the verses that PJM posted on the discussion of sacramental confession, in particular Mat 28:18-20,

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”

Hence I posted in response to just that verse(s) of Matt. 28:18-20; “Nothing explicit or implicit on post baptismal sin forgiveness. For sure sin forgiveness thru faith and baptism in the gospel is implied.” Hope that makes more sense now

.

COMMENTS added by PJM

I have previously shared with benhur:
NOT everything is clearly and precisely articulated n the bible [last 2 verse in Jn 20 & 21]

That the above passage DOES support the RCC on Sacramental Confession wHEN it is rightly understood:
“. Go YOU therefore, and teach all nations” directly; precisely and miss not this word: exclusively

“Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU”… John 20:19-23 Is intimately connected to this teaching

Forgiveness of sin through faith by Baptism is a given. The word of the Gospel on this cannot be any clearer.

REPLY bh

Correct, but would add that not by baptism itself but by faith and preceding repentance also.(“repent /believe, and be baptized”)

NO, and too had been previously expressed by me. [PJM]

WHY? Because Baptism removes ONLY those sins in entirety committed PRIOR to being Baptized.

James 4:17 To him therefore who knoweth to do good, and doth it not, to him it is sin.
Rom 6: 16 “Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are whom you obey, whether it be of sin unto death, or of obedience unto justice
Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid

As for post baptismal sacramental confession, in Mt 3:6, confession was mentioned together with baptism. ….…. and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Reply bh

Well, still associated directly with baptism, and I would presume before

.

[PJM] NO it is NOT!
1 This was John the Baptist babtism B4 the HS… It was NOT for the forgiveness of SIN which is WHY many were REBAPTIZED later. The fact that they confessed there sin was perhaps due to ab imposed condition of John The Baptist ; BUT not for Christ FORM of sin forgiveness; BUT rather they followed OT tradition & practices.

2 Sacramental Confession had yet to be Commanded by Christ

The grace and Gifts of the sacraments cannot DIRECTLY extend beyond the Sacraments themselves

The need for Sacramental Confession in John 20:21-23 is pretty clear, no matter how one makes a spin of it.

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

REPLY bh

Yes this and the James quotes are the only scriptures possibly dealing with "confession’’. What is not clear is which of our interpretations is the true meaning/practice . But yes PJM and others and I have hashed this verse(s) out . I have stated any interpretation is “implied” and certainly not explicit, or “crystal clear” etc… For sure we need forgiveness of sins, and for sure some will not have them forgiven, and for sure it has something to with the apostles, and lastly with their connection/relationship to the Holy Ghost

[PJM] Thank you.
And I too disagree with NOT being explicit; HOW friend could it have been made more so?

Jn 20:23 “Receive ye the Holy Ghost. [23] Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.”

Notice the next passage say’s Thomas was not present YET He TOO received these powers!

Please see next post for balance:thumbsup: