Do you have questions about Catholic beliefs & Practices

[benhur]

SURE, it’s right next to the part that say’s God is “OK” with Protestants having thousands of differing faith beliefs; most of which compete directly with the Bible and what Jesus empowered [Mt 28:18] directly and here it is again; EXCLUSIVELY His CC to teach without even a possibility of ERROR when teaching of required Faith beliefs and or Morals. [Mt. 16:18-19; John 17: 17-20 & Mt 28:19-20]. All of which have been shared before; and apparently rejected; or at least not comprehended by you dear friend.

Well here was my question:

*“Yes, but can you show me where early church, during the apostles lifetime and shortly thereafter, thru their successors, practiced/taught such sacramental, exclusively priestly, confessions ?” *

I know the CC has historical,and scriptural support for all she teaches. Was just asking to see exactly what can apply to my question. It is a bit circular for you to say my question is mute because the church can not error anyways , or because my church has errors or bad fruit(30,000 denom’s).

Don’t get me wrong, what you bring up about P 's faults, or CC teaching infallibility are valid talking points, and I have heard and even addressed them. Have not rejected them nor misunderstood them. I fully understand your bottom line answer that it is true because the CC says so. I am also capable of accepting what others have said, that indeed the teaching and practice of the sacrament in discussion evolved, and need not be explicitly scriptural, even apostolic, but that infallible tradition implies the connection, and certainly does not contradict scripture nor the apostles.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

benhur quote :“Mat 10:1-8 Zero mention of sin forgiveness, even as per your sacrament. It is implied as I have been saying , by preaching the Kingdom of God at hand-the gospel, which is about reconciliation or ‘forgiveness of sins’.”

FYI:
Reconciliation IS and must include sin-forgiveness

Yes, thank you .Perhaps that is why I posted," It is implied as i have been saying , by preaching the Kingdom of God at hand-the gospel, which is about reconciliation or ‘forgiveness of sins’.

God KNOWS that by giving just ONE RIGHT choice: God; Faith and Church there OUGHT to be far less chance of man not being able to actually discover HIS singular truths. YOU CAN"T miss this and expect to actually find that ONE true set of Faith believes. Amen!.

Understand. Reminds of Wall Street’s past crisis and the idea of a singular bank being so big that it must be doing things right and therefore can not fail any investor.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Pardon I don’t mean to trivialize any of this…but I’m kind of like Pavlov’s Dog at this point whenever I do have occassion to be in LA or NYC (mostly during conference season).

I see one of those setups with your saint and the brass band playing and 2 thoughts come to mind…

Either…

http://f.tqn.com/y/gonyc/1/5/d/X/sausage_peppers.jpg

Or…

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Tortas_Oaxaquenas.jpg

Hi A,

Glad to see you here. Where is PRMerger ( a regular CAF poster) when you need her? She could match you photo for photo, and some of them even ‘move’.

Yes the rational guilt by association. Does every thesis have an anti thesis, or every good thing a countering bad thing ? I mean when one is hungry one does not assume that because he sees some spoiling apples that the whole bushel is bad. How dangerously irrational would that be ? Of course when one is factually certain, and a thesis is no longer a thesis, one is no longer hungry, at least not for any apple, good or bad.

Factual Non- Delusionary Blessings to you

 

[benhur]

Pardon I don’t mean to trivialize any of this…but I’m kind of like Pavlov’s Dog at this point whenever I do have occassion to be in LA or NYC (mostly during conference season).

I see one of those setups with your sainthttp://www.bu.edu/today/files/2015/07/h_butoday_wtd-0731-stagrip.jpg
and the brass band playing and 2 thoughts come to mind…

Either…

http://f.tqn.com/y/gonyc/1/5/d/X/sausage_peppers.jpg

Or…

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Tortas_Oaxaquenas.jpg

How about this :maybe as food can be fun and yummy for the body, so is religious activity fun and yummy for the spirit ? No ? I did not think that would be your Pavlovian experience.

Anyways, thanks for the fun posting.

 

[In_His_Grace]

Here I am apologizing to everyone yet again. I fell of the wagon again yesterday and posted when I was drunk. Please pray that God will grant me the grace to stay sober for the rest of my life. Again, my apologizes to all.

 

[Michael68]

Here I am apologizing to everyone yet again. I fell of the wagon again yesterday and posted when I was drunk. Please pray that God will grant me the grace to stay sober for the rest of my life. Again, my apologizes to all.

Hang in there!!! It can be a hard road at times, then it will straighten out and be a smooth ride. It is worth it to get back up. That smooth ride is coming!!! Give your suffering to the Lord, tell Him everything and let Him take it! Love ya! Nice to meet a fellow traveler on this road!!!Remember, God is in control! We need to let Him take the wheel

 

[adrift]

Hang in there!!! It can be a hard road at times, then it will straighten out and be a smooth ride. It is worth it to get back up. That smooth ride is coming!!! Give your suffering to the Lord, tell Him everything and let Him take it! Love ya! Nice to meet a fellow traveler on this road!!!Remember, God is in control! We need to let Him take the wheel

Amen especially the hang in there

 

[benhur]

Here I am apologizing to everyone yet again. I fell of the wagon again yesterday and posted when I was drunk. Please pray that God will grant me the grace to stay sober for the rest of my life. Again, my apologizes to all.

No, how about just for today ?Sorry to hear though I could not tell from your posts,unless you meant the “do your homework” part. But hey, sometimes I’m blunt also, all on my own.

Double Blessings to you today.

 

[In_His_Grace]

thank you

 

[PJM]

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the clarification and the honesty in the post.

I am glad to note the areas where you understood the position of the Catholic Church, so that they would not need any more rehashing. And you stated your position too.

I can only add, don’t know whether this is a bias or not, but I would agree with what PJM said: that Baptism and Confession were two separate activities (we call them Sacraments now).

You seemed to admit that it was not explicit that confession was done before baptism in Mt3:6. I would concur, at least as far as that verse is concerned, simple because it is not stated explicitly. I would take it from PJM, that it was a possibility (my own deduction) that baptism and confession were two separate activities. John baptized and there were also confession. If this happened, then confession was as much an activity done in pre-Jesus time.

You asked for explicitness in the Bible to support a given doctrine. Personally I find problem in this approach. As been mentioned earlier, not every belief that Christianity has now is explicitly stated in the Bible, example such as the Trinity. I would say further, that the Bible is not a book of doctrine which makes us Catholics differ very much with those who believe it is so. I am not sure whether those are in the category of Sola Scriptura but in any case, we oppose to that approach.

Explicitly? I have not seen any writings that have it the way the Sacrament of Confession is done now. But I am not learned in this subject, especially that of the Early Church Fathers. But was any confession took place? The answer was obviously yes.

John 20:23 is still very authoritative on the Sacrament of Confession, one we cannot overlook in its importance. PJM explained that very well. My important take on it is that, I repeat, it makes no sense for the apostles (and their successors) not to carry out what Jesus had sent them out to do.

IF I may add some clarification here

Sacramental Baptism as one of its cheif effects is to remove ALL is including Original sin which can ONLY be removed through Christian Baptism AND all the effects of those sins [committed before sacramental baptism/ not after].including the “Temporal Punishment” all sins incurs. Therefore Sacramental is NOT be needed either Prior to OR as a “part-of” Sacramental Baptism.

SACRAMENTAL CONFESSION is for man’s POSSIBLE salvation for sin-forgiveness AFTER Baptism; if and when SINS are committed.

 

[PJM]

How funny somehow extra code was applied to my answer which causes only a block to be seen. It actually shows up in my post and when I quote my post. Even more amazing if you click on the grey area it will activate the link.
Here it is as I intended.
Justification Sola Fide

I guess it is the bibledrb tag. Don’t know I did it nor do I know what it is

SORRY friend; BUT just what is it you’d like me to comment on? Please let me know.

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

http://www.bu.edu/today/files/2015/07/h_butoday_wtd-0731-stagrip.jpg

Alright, i’ll bite on this thread… Consider this a mixed Anthropology/Theology question…

What’s the whole “let’s cover the saint in money” business I occasionally see while moving through either the Italian-esque sections of New York City or the Latino sections of Los Angeles?

Edit - Is there some sort of deep significance? Is this just a cultural practice?

My friend I will be happy to respond to to WHEN you express it in an understandable amnner. I have NOT the fainest idea what it is your talking about or asking.

I’m not trying to avoid your point; I simply don’t understand what your point is

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

While we are at it, I am also waiting for someone who can tell us a story on this.

Catholicism encompasses a culture so diverse; often we do not know what the others are doing.

AGAIN: WHAT “others” AND WHAT is it you mean to infer by Catholicism being "diverse?’

 

[Michael68]

AGAIN: WHAT “others” AND WHAT is it you mean to infer by Catholicism being "diverse?’

I don’t understand what they mean by Catholicism being diverse either.

 

[PJM]

Good morning PJM,

Thanks for agreeing that it is not clear and precise. Of course it can support the CC position as you say and it certainly may not contradict it either. But I would hope you can likewise see that the same can be said of the ‘alternative’ understanding also.
It is very reasonable to presume that if baptism is effectual and sacramental that you would need another effectual sacrament to cover those sins there after.

NO I did not mean that specific and PRECISE teachings od which there are MANY so well written that they need to be ignored because they can’t possibly be refuted any other way:

One God; Faith and Church

Primacy of Peter

Infallibility on ALL Faith beliefs and Moral Teachings

The Real Presence

Sacramental Confession for sin forgiveness

Being the one’s that come quickly to my mind [such as it is]

These teaching NOT to be understood as being the obvious teachings in the bible CANNOT be be guided as assumed by the HS; who being God cannot participate in Lies.

I hope my friend that is clear enough for you:shrug:

However, if one believes that faith and repentance preclude and actually effect/obtain forgiveness, and baptism being a rite/sign of that reality, the need for further signs for further sins is not as necessary (as if it were believed to be sacramental)

What “YOU” [representing here our Protestant Brethren] FREELY choose to believe has NO EFFECT on what is God;s truth. NONE! Check out the teaching at the bottom of each of MY post. Neither unbelieve or WRONG understanding of TRUTH; changes THAT truth:thumbsup:

A sign is gracious and nice but do we always need one ? Would you believe that you were forgiven before the Lord privately or would you tell Him you need to hear from someone else ? Or if I told you I forgive your trespass against me would you need verification beyond that ?

IF as IS the case here; “that person” were YOUR God or that God’s directly appointed channel to SHARE HIS Truth; I would respectfully SUGGEST that you Listen UP! It’s your soul; your salvation being PUT at risk.

[QUOTAfter all, all interpretations believe that it is thru the Blood and promise of it’s effectualness that any sin is absolved. This is what the priest/confessional represents, and that is what any private or interpersonal confession one also represent. We all plead the Blood. But I understand your position that He has chosen/ordained your ,CC’s, method
[/QUOTE]

**NO!

That is NOT what the role of the PRIEST IS:

THE ROLE OF THE PRIEST IN THIS PRECISE EXAMPLE TO TO BE EXACTLY WHAT HE IS" ALTER-CHRISTI" Another Christ! That is the intent and the accomplished deed of Jesus Christ. Amen!**

QUOTE]Actually the baptism of John also included remission of sins, and I think it says that in one or two of the gospels

WHERE EXACTLY?.[IN a manner other than the OT MODEL as I shared]

Now we have gone full circle. You began the post with some things “not being clear or precise” and now we are back to “explicit”. The scripture here is not explicit as to the method of implementation (your sacrament, and my view that it s declarative thru the gospel -accept it and receive forgiveness,reject it retain your sins, are both methods of implementation of the scripture above). This one scripture is also not explicit that others who also received the Holy Ghost were excluded from such authority. If it were implicit then the apostles themselves could forgive sins, yet the CC says it is really Christ who forgives, but through the apostle/priest. That is an implied understanding of the above scripture, not explicit in my opinion.

Blessings

This opinion of your does warrant my time to reply to it. Your attempts at putting words into MY mouth will not be addressed

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

Well here was my question:

*“Yes, but can you show me where early church, during the apostles lifetime and shortly thereafter, thru their successors, practiced/taught such sacramental, exclusively priestly, confessions ?” *

I know the CC has historical,and scriptural support for all she teaches. Was just asking to see exactly what can apply to my question. It is a bit circular for you to say my question is mute because the church can not error anyways , or because my church has errors or bad fruit(30,000 denom’s).

Don’t get me wrong, what you bring up about P 's faults, or CC teaching infallibility are valid talking points, and I have heard and even addressed them. Have not rejected them nor misunderstood them. I fully understand your bottom line answer that it is true because the CC says so. I am also capable of accepting what others have said, that indeed the teaching and practice of the sacrament in discussion evolved, and need not be explicitly scriptural, even apostolic, but that infallible tradition implies the connection, and certainly does not contradict scripture nor the apostles.

Blessings

I’m NOT going THERE. I have addressed this with you multiple times before:shrug:

 

[PJM]

Here I am apologizing to everyone yet again. I fell of the wagon again yesterday and posted when I was drunk. Please pray that God will grant me the grace to stay sober for the rest of my life. Again, my apologizes to all.

WILL DO!

May God Help you!

Patrick

 

[drac16]

Do priests confess their sins to other priests? (in a sacramental sense, so as to receive forgiveness from God)

 

[drac16]

Even the Pope?

 

[Michael68]

Do priests confess their sins to other priests? (in a sacramental sense, so as to receive forgiveness from God)

Yes