Do you have questions about Catholic beliefs & Practices

[PJM]

OK. Tolerate is tolerate , irregardless of motive or attitude, such as *patience *that you suggest. We both agree to absolute truth. For example Mary was IC or she was not, or Jonah was swallowed by a big fish or he was not. However, those are small elements within a bigger faith. Do differences in the two examples above qualify for views then being of a different faith.? No as I am sure you agree.

I agree with you that obviously differences exist within the faith, and agree that there can be consequences to those differences, but not necessarily . For example, I would think it difficult to quantify the effectual differences in two believers who held opposing Marion views. Could you see that one is holier, kinder, more spiritual, etc., than the other ? At the other end is are infants regenerated at baptism ? That can have graver consequences on ones spiritual disposition. That God will judge and reward righteously for receiving or rejecting the Spirit’s guiding on each issue is a given, as you kind of pointed out (after death).

To the question, I submit again that the OT is full of God tolerating, allowing different faith beliefs, within the one, true belief of the time, Judaism. Other wise you would not have had Pharisees, and Sadducees, or Essene, Hasidim etc

**Where is the evidence that GOD approved or tolerated these?..

Certainly NOT in the fact they existed at the time of His Incarnation**?

It is all too evident we have the same paradigm in the Church Differences

.

Meaning what specifically?

I agree with you that it is not God’s perfect will, that He *yearns *for all the misconceptions, falsehoods to cease. I also say it is His perfect will that perfection will be achieved when He returns, and that for now, the wheat is in with the tares. Somehow this is Wise, for reasons we can partially see. Certainly love covers a multitude of sin, even error. For some reason He graces us to enjoy the fish though there be bones in with the needed meat.

Blessings

And what was the “cause” [its not the 95 thesis] for these misconceptions; and who specifically has misconceived? And What exactly?

God Bless,

Patrick

PS-I used “wheat and tares” loosely. The term is generally meant to signify a true believer from a false believer. While it is true that this sometimes is brought out by straying from core beliefs, not always. There are also tares in the almost perfect church as there are in the less perfect, less ‘full’ churches.

 

[blanchardman]

Patrick : I did not ask ,What is “The Lords Day”. I asked, What is" the day of the Lord".

 

[PJM]

HI Pat,

“…the one, true belief of the time, Judaism” (what I said) = “OT Judaism was the ONE true set of Faith beliefs.” (what you said).

So tell me in that regard, does Judaism = The Roman Catholic Church ?

But tell me, did the Pharisees and Sadducees and Essenes and Hasidim etc., all with differing faith beliefs, makeup Judaism ? And is that not like the Catholic Church, and the Orthodox Church, and Protestant Churches, all with differing faith beliefs, makeup the Church, the bride of Jesus Christ ?.

No & Yes

NO! Not in alignment with GOD"S Divine and perfect Plan & Will

FORCING oneself onto the VINE is NOT equivalent to too [nor was it PLANNED] DOING God’s Perfect will:shrug:… GREAT question though

And yes to varying degrees dependent upon how closely they assimilated the One TRUE Faith that Jesus Taught, commanded [Mt 28: 19-20]; desired and protects.

NO! At least NOT in accordance to GOD"S WILL. Did they graft themselves unto it? They certainly tried too.

Blessings

Yes; but primarily in it’s ROOTS of Father Abraham and some of their Traditions.

With the NT New Covenant which overrode the OT Covenants; but does not delete them.

**It is significant that it was * Jesus Himself who introduced the Term “MY Church”; Mt 16:18

Pagans would have their temples

Jews their Synagogues

& Catholic-Christian their “Church”*

The significance of which is not to be overlooked:

At it’s core was the delineation of faith -belief systems.

Jesus /GOD was making it clear [or at least attempting too] that what He was doing was establishing; now under a floodgate of GRACE an entirely NEW Religion. NOT a make-over; BRAND NEW

And rather than make it evident sporadically as He had done with His Chosen people [spoon-fed] comes to mind; what Jesus did was LIVE & Teach a concentrated course of His-NEW WAY’s FAITH-beliefs; SUPERSEDING ALL PREVIOUS AND ALL FUTURE Faiths except for His Own. . **Mt Chapter **5 comes to mind. It was essential that Jesus Model for humanity exactly what He Jesus Ordained and empowered & trusted His One Church to “flesh-out” [John 20: 30-31 & 21: 24-25], GUIDED by the HS & Jesus Himself as the warranty of their inability NOT TO teach ONLY HIS truths on ALL matters of faith beliefs and Morals [the biblical-foundation for the Dogma of Infallibility John 17:17-20]

God Bless,

Patrick**

 

[PJM]

HI Pat,

“…the one, true belief of the time, Judaism” (what I said) = “OT Judaism was the ONE true set of Faith beliefs.” (what you said).

So tell me in that regard, does Judaism = The Roman Catholic Church ?

But tell me, did the Pharisees and Sadducees and Essenes and Hasidim etc., all with differing faith beliefs, makeup Judaism ? And is that not like the Catholic Church, and the Orthodox Church, and Protestant Churches, **all with differing faith beliefs, makeup the Church, the bride of Jesus Christ ?. **

Blessings

Yes: BUT conditionally
Primarily in the area connected to Father Abraham; it’s great significance on Sacred Traditions such as the Jewish Feast Day’s PASSOVER being the most significant; of course the OT text which Guided by the HS found their way into God’s WORD.

We must NOT confuse what mortal men CHOOSE to do; choose to belief in opposition to what God Himself Ordained.

There is no indication that these “add-on’s” were or are] GOD-APPROVED:shrug: And moral theology and plain logic tells us that they are not

Jesus /God, inherited these “conditions”; He DID NOT request them in any way; shape or form.NOR can it be said that He actually tolerated them

This is evident in Mt 16:18-19; Jn 17:17-20 & Mt 28:19-20 where Jesus / God freely choose to establish JUST One New Faith 'MY Church" [Mt 16:18]… And I explained earlier “One Church” Has great significance in knowing [or being able to know] the Mind and Heart of Christ; what HE Desired; not what very mortal men CHOOSE to dictate to Him.

God desires that ALL men be saved [1St. Tim. 2:4]; BUT HIs Desire is to accomplish it HIS WAY

Certainly the culpability of these alternatives to Christ One True Faith adherents lesson’s the further they get from the the “reformers” Reformers who by specific intent freely choose to tell GOD that they “knew more” and or, “Knew Better” than did Jesus and His Guided and protected and guided Church. Mt 16:19; John 17:17-20; Mt 28:19-20.

To “REFORM” means to ALTER what already existed

“Protestants” means to PROTEST; NOT simply selling of indulgences; BUT wholesale changes to critical to salvation believes LOG defined, recognized and practiced. They developed and nearly. ALL-NEW religion; that has blossomed into many thousands of differing “faiths” and churches. YET; God’s Own Faith is singular per defined issue. So IF Catholicism is NOT the Faith of Jesus [singular]; then WHICH one of the thousands is:shrug: And on what basis?

So NO; all the faiths you mention are NOT part of the One Church desired and established by Christ: We do [THANK GOD] hold some same beliefs; BUT our differences ARE significant; .and NOT God-approved. Dictating to God How he MUST & “will” save you; seems to me, to not be the most prudent of choices.

While Salvation is acknowledged to be highly Conditionally possible out side of the Catholic Church; it is CERTAINLY NOT ASSURED as is sometime taught.

One’s level of confidence in meriting their own salvation is FAR morel likely inside the CC than outside as an independent, competing with what Jesus Wants; looking inside Her.Amen!

LACK of right understanding of the Bible is the primary root of our differences. And that my friend is being controlled by the Holy Spirit.

God Bless you,

PATRICK**

 

[PJM]

Patrick : I did not ask ,What is “The Lords Day”. I asked, What is" the day of the Lord".

I haven’t the faintest idea what you have on your mind.

The terms the Day of the Lord and the Lords’s day are synonymous

Perhaps one could envision “day of the Lord” as Judgment day:shrug: Other than that I am unaware without some clue form you;on just what it is your seeking:shrug:.

Sorry, give me a bit more information.

These 2 passages seem to support my position:

2 Esdras (Nehemiah) 8:10
And he said to them: Go, eat fat meats, and drink sweet wine, and send portions to them that have not prepared for themselves: because it is the holy day of the Lord, and be not sad: for the joy of the Lord is our strength

Isaias (Isaiah) 2:12
Because the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and highminded, and upon every one that is arrogant, and he shall be humbled

Isaias (Isaiah) 13:6
Howl ye, for the day of the Lord is near: it shall come as a destruction from the Lord

BOTH dealing with Judgement:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[benhur]

My friend can WE claim absolute truth when the question goes unanswered?

Hi Pat,

OK. I will try again. We both agree that truth is absolute, as opposed to relative, irregardless of any answers or lack of to any question. Claiming one has absolute truth on any matter is something else.

Is there even one example in the Bible where God: Yahweh or Jesus was OK, tolerate of, condoned, or accepted ANY other; that is ANY COMPETING FAITH BELIEFS other than what He taught and commanded?

Yes, I gave you examples. I also agreed that God condones, desires that we all come to the truth, His truth, on any matter. So yes, and no to your question, due to your four questions in one (OK, condone,tolerate,accept are different words with different meanings). I believe I have answered all four words, with no to condone, being OK with, accepting falsehoods, but yes to tolerate.

Why do you suppose that Jesus; like Yahweh choose only “One”?

To be technical , God does not choose one over the other. WE choose. Again, God does not choose say the Broncos over the Panthers, and likewise the Orthodox over Protestants or Catholics over both etc. as I understand it. Truth is truth. God wishes we see truth over falsehood. So I am like you and agree their is only one truth on any matter that God condones, and yearns and enables our choosing of it. There are absolutely no examples where God condones that 1+1=3. Yet we must be careful for truth and wisdom reveals that indeed 1+1 can become 3 in sanctified marriage.
(perspective is important)

One set of Faith beliefs

No such creature ever existed for too long in His dispensations.

One chosen people

And God yearn for them to be one in all faith matters but they were not and yet many still remained as part of the chosen, and some in name only

"MY Church

Well, His Church. He (thru us, the called out ones) calls out the individuals and baptizes them into Himself. I believe the CC has taken the term, the reality, of ecclesia, church = called out ones, and tied it up to their own particular beliefs wrapped in an institution, more so that other churches.

So now an ‘assembly’ is an ‘institution’ ? Reminds me of Martin Luther Kings famous million man march and rally at Washington. Many were called out to that assembly. They were an ecclesia, a church, true to the Greek word. Now imagine them being turned into an* institution*. That is not what the word ecclesia means or intended, though it may evolve. Now for sure that King ‘church/ecclesia’ had many factions, such as the Black Panthers. I am sure the Panthers could later claim they were the original force, and that all the rest stem from them, and they had the* full *vision. I would just have to disagree with them historically. I stick with the original spirit of the meeting and it’s ecclesia, that any one attending, even with varied ‘visions,’ was part of that ‘church’.

Thank you for listening. I understand* the CC teaching* that she is the Real McCoy, the Original, the One and Only. Furthermore, that any off shoot variations (O;s and P’s) owe their existence and actually add to, the CC, that they can not escape that unity that comes from the CC.

Blessings

.

 

[blanchardman]

This is about 1Cor:13-14 and how it is used there.

 

[Tommy999]

Hi Patrick,
Sorry for not responding sooner. I was not able to logon to CAF for a few days. Yes, your explanations definitely help. I appreciate your taking to the time out of your day to explain them. Also, thanks for your patience. I can tell you are a good man.

 

[benhur]

Where is the evidence that GOD approved or tolerated these?.

Hi Pat,

Approve= to believe that something or someone is good or acceptable; to officially accept

Tolerate= to allow (something that is bad, unpleasant, etc.) to exist, happen, or be done

Are you using both words as if they are similar ?

God approves only truth. He tolerates variations within some truths.

Certainly NOT in the fact they existed at the time of His Incarnation?

Then you agree God tolerated variation from within the One Faith of Judaism/Israel before or at the the time of the Incarnation?

Meaning what specifically? (same paradigm with the church)

I mean that as you had variation within the one true faith of Judaism/Israel you have variation within the one true Christianity/Church.

And what was the “cause” [its not the 95 thesis] for these misconceptions; and who specifically has misconceived? And What exactly?

Private interpretation, carnality, spiritual immaturity, covetous flesh by man, as across the board, from head leaders, to teachers, to laity, under girded by Satan and his world, and on almost every discernible thing.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Yes; but primarily in it’s ROOTS of Father Abraham and some of their Traditions.

With the NT New Covenant which overrode the OT Covenants; but does not delete them.

**It is significant that it was * Jesus Himself who introduced the Term “MY Church”; Mt 16:18

Pagans would have their temples

Jews their Synagogues

& Catholic-Christian their “Church”***

The significance of which is not to be overlooked:

At it’s core was the delineation of faith -belief systems.

Jesus /GOD was making it clear [or at least attempting too] that what He was doing was establishing; now under a floodgate of GRACE an entirely NEW Religion. NOT a make-over; BRAND NEW

And rather than make it evident sporadically as He had done with His Chosen people [spoon-fed] comes to mind; what Jesus did was LIVE & Teach a concentrated course of His-NEW WAY’s FAITH-beliefs; SUPERSEDING ALL PREVIOUS AND ALL FUTURE Faiths except for His Own. . **Mt Chapter **5 comes to mind. It was essential that Jesus Model for humanity exactly what He Jesus Ordained and empowered & trusted His One Church to “flesh-out” [John 20: 30-31 & 21: 24-25], GUIDED by the HS & Jesus Himself as the warranty of their inability NOT TO teach ONLY HIS truths on ALL matters of faith beliefs and Morals [the biblical-foundation for the Dogma of Infallibility John 17:17-20]

God Bless,

PatrickHi Pat,

Yes agree to the above. However, I think you misunderstood my equation of “Judaism = Roman Catholic Church”. Of course they are different , one new , one old etc . We were discussing the one true faith, that God approves. We agreed that the OT approved ‘religion’ was Judaism thru Israel. Now I ask you, is the NT ‘religion’ Christianity thru the Roman Catholic Church (the equation) ? I believe that is the CC teaching. And as you know I would kindly disagree. To me that would be like one of the Jewish sects saying Judaism was thru them, like as an example, all sects stem from the Pharisaical faith beliefs.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

To “REFORM” means to ALTER what already existed

No, per Merriam:REFORM= *to improve (someone or something) by removing or correcting faults, problems, etc.
*

“Protestants” means to PROTEST;

Do you know what Catholics of the time, who coined the term, were referencing ? What was protested specifically ?

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Yes: BUT conditionally

Agree, just that you put conditionality on others but not your own church, for she is unconditionally infallible in teaching etc.

We must NOT confuse what mortal men CHOOSE to do; choose to belief in opposition to what God Himself Ordained.

There is no indication that these “add-on’s” were or are] GOD-APPROVED:shrug: And moral theology and plain logic tells us that they are not

This all goes both ways. Obviously one says the reformers chose man’s way, added on etc, while reformers rebut they are undoing what those before them added on, was not of God. Both sides can play the logic and moralness of their stand.

Jesus /God, inherited these “conditions”; He DID NOT request them in any way; shape or form.NOR can it be said that He actually tolerated them

He also prophesied there coming (false teachers). Same old same old. The OT was full of genuine reformers being put down by false status quot, as well as genuine rebels being put down by genuine standard bearers.

Reformers who by specific intent freely choose to tell GOD that they “knew more” and or, “Knew Better” than did Jesus and His Guided and protected and guided Church.

Again, one could also be presuming on God just how He would guide and not guide (certainly not thru reformers ?)

I am reminded by Elihu in the book of Job. He was the mysterious fourth friend and that a youth. “For age should teach wisdom, and know a thing , but not always, for God gives understanding to who He will, and from folks you might least expect. Sometimes the newcomer, the young one, is right, and the established, aged ones quite wrong.” paraphrase

So IF Catholicism is NOT the Faith of Jesus [singular]; then WHICH one of the thousands is:shrug: And on what basis?

Is Christianity a singular faith church ? I thought it was following Jesus, by Peter, or Paul, or Apollos, down to whomever the Spirit speaks to us thru. I am pretty sure the Orthodox, and P’s, have heard from God, even Jesus, and not just the Catholics, joining the ranks of Christianity. Is not a Catholic a Christian first ?Is not a Baptist or Lutheran a Christian first ? Those secondary labels are ok for now, but I certainly can’t wait to jettison all all of them in the new kingdom - vestiges of the battle of truth and falsehood, of spirit against the flesh, of seeing thru a glass darkly now . The broken, freer spirit in Christ holds loosely to his secondary name of Catholic, or Orthodox, or Protestant, even any 30,000 th name.

So NO; all the faiths you mention are NOT part of the One Church desired and established by Christ:

Well, they* are* part of the church, and Sec.Vat says so.,But agree that any divisions are not desired nor from God,except that if one is in a falsehood, he is to come out from it, be divided from it, back into the true mind on the matter.

While Salvation is acknowledged to be highly Conditionally possible out side of the Catholic Church; it is CERTAINLY NOT ASSURED as is sometime taught.

I know Pat, a tiring matter. Yet for sure, the CC teaches a sort of assurance also. I mean her sacraments are for a purpose as well as many of her practices and beliefs.

One’s level of confidence in meriting their own salvation is FAR morel likely inside the CC than outside as an independent, competing with what Jesus Wants; looking inside Her.Amen!

I spoke to soon above, for here you say the same thing of CC assurance.

LACK of right understanding of the Bible is the primary root of our differences. And that my friend is being controlled by the Holy Spirit.

Don’t forget the battling flesh and the desires of our heart. Things are spiritually discerned .What is it that we really desire ?

Blessings

 

[benhur]

HI J’,

Yes that is it I think.Agree it is word of something that happened in the past. A bit like if we were to call the Orthodox Schismatics,(the Great Schism). However, these labels serve a slight purpose of conveying some things quickly, but hopefully to go deeper thereafter.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

perfect way to end the day wit some personal humor…thank you…blessings

 

[Abu]

Benhur
just that you put conditionality on others but not your own church, for she is unconditionally infallible in teaching etc

As Christ clearly formed His own Church and declared Her invincibility against teaching error, to presume that Christ sponsored others who teach error is quite false.

All four promises to Peter alone:
**“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18) **
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve, also].

**Sole authority: **
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Obviously one says the reformers chose man’s way, added on etc, while reformers rebut they are undoing what those before them added on, was not of God. Both sides can play the logic and moralness of their stand.

But it is not “sides”, it is God Himself who is being doubted and questioned in His establishment of His own Church.

Is Christianity a singular faith church ?

Obviously Christ has been ignored and by-passed by those who have, by ignorance or design and not usually with malice aforethought, chosen to do their own thing and reject Christ’s clear foundation, and call themselves “Christian”. We all know the thousands of variations and styles adopted and presumed, and the Christ-truths lost.

 

[benhur]

But it is not “sides”, it is God Himself who is being doubted and questioned in His establishment of His own Church.

No, not really . The Pharisees did not doubt God, nor did the Sadducee doubt God, nor the the Hasidics doubt God, nor the Essenes etc…They most certainly doubted each others interpretations of what God’s ways are.

Having said that, for sure if one does not believe the correct interpretation, and believes a false one, they short change God. I mean to believe one thing is to doubt another. So again, it can goes both ways. For example, maybe you are doubting God that He could and did Incarnate in a Mary that was just like you and I. (just as you say about me and not believing IC)

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Obviously Christ has been ignored, and by-passed by those who have, by ignorance or design and not usually with malice aforethought, chosen to do their own thing and reject Christ’s clear foundation, and call themselves “Christian”

So also thought both the successful and unsuccessful reformers.

We all know the thousands of variations and styles adopted and presumed, and the Christ-truths lost.

That is a slur that has some truth to it, and again slurs with some truth to it go both ways.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

As Christ clearly formed His own Church and declared Her invincibility against teaching error, to presume that Christ sponsored others who teach error is quite false.

Hi Abu’

Sorry, I just can not get away from the theme that all your accusations go both ways. The presumption is that the Catholic Church, once being perfectly right at the beginning, would continue to do so at the middle, and ending, without any heed to the validity of Orthodox or Protestant claims. The presumption is that God did not, does not, use their voices towards that perfection in doctrine.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

All four promises to Peter alone**:
**“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18) **
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve, also].

Hi Abu,

Thank for admitting the other apostles bound and loosed also. Now will you please admit
that all of us are foundations of the church to those that come after us .Scripture says we are living stones. Also the twelve, not just Peter, are the first foundations with Christ the cornerstone. “The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” Rev 21:14 Will you also admit Christ has the keys, and opens and shuts all doors ? Rev3:7 "He holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.
Rev 1:18, ".And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

I admit that the church was built on Peter, he had keys, he bound and loosed. Just prefer to go to a church that allows all to participate equally in that unity, with the least amount of institutionalizing of what Peter had or did.

Blessings

 

[Abu]

Benhur #443
The presumption is that the Catholic Church, once being perfectly right at the beginning, would continue to do so at the middle, and ending, without any heed to the validity of Orthodox or Protestant claims. The presumption is that God did not, does not, use their voices towards that perfection in doctrine.

That presumption is all yours.

The ignoring and falsifying the Son of God is what leads to these wild fantasies for they presume and fantasise that God is in error.

For having seen the formation of Christ’s own Church on the Rock of Peter, listen for a change to the Christ Himself:
“I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in My name, He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when He comes, the Spirit of truth, He will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that He will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15).

Why on earth should a silly notion be even considered that Jesus did not intend His Truths in His Church to be present for mankind for all time?

The clincher is the Greet Commission to His Apostles:
"All power in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And, behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” (Mt 28: 18-20).

Jesus is not supporting the multitudinous errors of others, here, but guaranteeing His truths in His Church for all time.

The presumption of error in Christ and His Teaching Church is all yours, without any truth.