Do you have questions about Catholic beliefs & Practices

[rcwitness]

Hi Abu,

Thank for admitting the other apostles bound and loosed also. Now will you please admit
that all of us are foundations of the church to those that come after us .Scripture says we are living stones. Also the twelve, not just Peter, are the first foundations with Christ the cornerstone. “The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” Rev 21:14 Will you also admit Christ has the keys, and opens and shuts all doors ? Rev3:7 "He holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.
Rev 1:18, ".And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

If you see these concepts through the understanding that Christ leads and acts through His mystical body, then you can understand how Jesus holds all the authority while certain leaders execute that authority.

I admit that the church was built on Peter, he had keys, he bound and loosed. Just prefer to go to a church that allows all to participate equally in that unity, with the least amount of institutionalizing of what Peter had or did.

Our faith is equal, but not our authority. If you “choose a church” instead of simply thee Church, then you are compromising what comes from Jesus.

 

[benhur]

That presumption is all yours.

The ignoring and falsifying the Son of God is what leads to these wild fantasies for they presume and fantasise that God is in error.

For having seen the formation of Christ’s own Church on the Rock of Peter, listen for a change to the Christ Himself:
“I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in My name, He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when He comes, the Spirit of truth, He will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that He will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15).

Why on earth should a silly notion be even considered that Jesus did not intend His Truths in His Church to be present for mankind for all time?

The clincher is the Greet Commission to His Apostles:
"All power in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And, behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” (Mt 28: 18-20).

Jesus is not supporting the multitudinous errors of others, here, but guaranteeing His truths in His Church for all time.

The presumption of error in Christ and His Teaching Church is all yours, without any truth.

OK, we are at odds.

It is ORAR. Once Right Always Right. Understand, she can not err from beginning to end. The P’s and O’s are wrong on every point where they differ from Christ’s True Church , the Roman Catholic Church. No need to preach it to me anymore.You have been most patient with me, thank you.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

If you see these concepts through the understanding that Christ leads and acts through His mystical body, then you can understand how Jesus holds all the authority while certain leaders execute that authority.

Hi rc,

Yes of course, we are His instruments.He opens and closes for them us.It is both. I usually only bring it up to show it is conditional, the use of those keys by us. We can not open or close anything that Jesus has not or wills to not, or has or wills to.

Our faith is equal, but not our authority. If you “choose a church” instead of simply thee Church, then you are compromising what comes from Jesus.

Well, not sure our faith (set of beliefs) is equal, nor our standing, according to most Catholic posters here. There is fullness in truth and not so full. There is perfect union, and not so perfect union. Much is judged against faith in the institutions/sacraments/ practices competing with judging against faith in the personhood of Christ and knowledge of Him, and a living out like Him etc. Of course the two are intertwined, but those to me are two ends of the spectrum.

Blessings

 

[rcwitness]

Hi rc,

Yes of course, we are His instruments.He opens and closes for them us.It is both. I usually only bring it up to show it is conditional, the use of those keys by us. We can not open or close anything that Jesus has not or wills to not, or has or wills to.

First of all, who is “we”? And secondly, how do you determine what is from Jesus and what is not? We both agree that Scripture is from Him (although Catholics can see why Scripture is from His authority) but what about Scripture’s interpretation and the Lord’s will on matters not explicit in Scripture?

Well, not sure our faith (set of beliefs) is equal, nor our standing, according to most Catholic posters here. There is fullness in truth and not so full. There is perfect union, and not so perfect union. Much is judged against faith in the institutions/sacraments/ practices competing with judging against faith in the personhood of Christ and knowledge of Him, and a living out like Him etc. Of course the two are intertwined, but those to me are two ends of the spectrum.

I was assuming you have “genuine faith” of which there is only ONE, and which we are all able to possess and excercise. I’m not talking about the “measure in which you assent”.

2 Peter 1

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and savior Jesus Christ.

 

[blanchardman]

Sorrrrrrrrry I meant 1 Cor 3:13-14

 

[PJM]

Agree, just that you put conditionality on others but not your own church, for she is unconditionally infallible in teaching etc

.

ONLY on Faith & Morals & ONLY by the Pope & and when so specifically declared

WHY? Mt 16:18-19; John 17:17-20 & Mt 28:19-20
IF you can’t refute these with evidence; then you can’t refute Infallibility

This all goes both ways. Obviously one says the reformers chose man’s way, added on etc, while reformers rebut they are undoing what those before them added on, was not of God. Both sides can play the logic and moralness of their stand.

He also prophesied there coming (false teachers). Same old same old. The OT was full of genuine reformers being put down by false status quot, as well as genuine rebels being put down by genuine standard bearers.

“FALSE TEACHERS”: THIS SPEAKS TO THE REFORMATION IN spades! not ONLY but CERTAINLY A great PART OF THIS TEACHING.

Again, one could also be presuming on God just how He would guide and not guide (certainly not thru reformers ?)

This PRESUMPTION is illogical and NOT-biblical. You dear friend have yet to provide evidence [NOT just your personal opinion] for ANY real justification for Protestantism to exist. & no, you have NOT answered that precise question. You have danced around it; BUT a Yes or a NO:

Is there ANY bible evidence that God EVER approved; OK’s, permitted; ALLOWED ANY other FAITH beliefs I don’t wish to shout BUT I have asked this I think 5 times.

Your premise that somehow the reformation is [was] or for that matter even COULD BE God’s doing is precisely WHY dear friend I keep asking the highlighted question:shrug:

For your position to have traction:

The Bible MUST be wrong

God MUST have lied Mt 16:18-19; John 17:17-20, Mt 28:19-20; 2nd Tim. 3:16-17

Or you simply do not correctly understand the bible teachings; so which one is it?

Also if Protestantism is right how can there POSSIBLY be THOUSANDS of differing sets of faith-beliefs & churches? Did the reformers somehow REDEFINE “Truth”

“There cannot be your truth & my truth pr there would be NO truth.” Where my friend is the fallacy in that statement?

I am reminded by Elihu in the book of Job. He was the mysterious fourth friend and that a youth. "For age should teach wisdom, and know a thing , but not always, for God gives understanding to who He will,

and from folks you might least expect. Sometimes the newcomer, the young one, is right, and the established, aged ones quite wrong." paraphrase

EXACTLY: and just which of the THOUSANDS of Protestant churches holds what even you hint at MUST be “singular truth” per defined issues. Friend your clutching at straws that are buring on both ends.

Is Christianity a singular faith church ?

OF COURSE NOT IMPOSSIBLE! Truth HAS TO BE singular per defined issue. HOW do you discount that fact?

I thought it was following Jesus, by Peter, or Paul, or Apollos, down to whomever the Spirit speaks to us thru. I am pretty sure the Orthodox, and P’s, have heard from God, even Jesus, and not just the Catholics, joining the ranks of Christianity. Is not a Catholic a Christian first?

Your lack of understanding & Logic is profound

So GOD IS OK [BACK TO THAT SAME Q AGAIN] WITH THOUSANDS OF DIFFERING UNDERSTANDINGS OF WHAT HE TAUGHT, COMMANDED AND DIED FOR? … If your unable to answer this simple. explicit, precisely worded question; then all I can do for you is pray; which I certainly shall do for you.

Is not a Baptist or Lutheran a Christian first ?

NO! Your trying to redefine TRUTH & it CAN’T BE DONE. Wanting what YOU want has to align with WHAT God WANTS. Other wise, as I have also stated before your trying to DICTATE TO GOD WHAT HE GOD MUST ACCEPT BECAUSE YOU SAY SO. Is that a position that is going to gain salvation:shrug:

Those secondary labels are ok for now, but I certainly can’t wait to jettison all all of them in the new kingdom

**They are ONLY secondary in your imagination **

vestiges of the battle of truth and falsehood, of spirit against the flesh, of seeing thru a glass darkly now . The broken,

freer spirit in Christ holds loosely to his secondary name of Catholic, or Orthodox, or Protestant, even any 30,000 th name

Friend you need to PRAY much! The lack of logic in your arguments is only exceed by the lack of evidence to support them.

Well, they* are*

part of the church, and Sec.Vat says so.,But agree that any divisions are not desired nor from God,except that if one is in a falsehood, he is to come out from it, be divided from it, back into the true mind on the matter.

PLEASE SEE NEXT POST for balance of my reply:

 

[PJM]

Part 2 of above REPLY

Remove the “if” [can’t be any other thing] and your close without actually getting what you yourself are saying.

From the Catholic Catechism:

CCC #1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity

CCC #846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively,** it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:**

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door.** Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.**

GOD WILL; BECAUSE GOD MUST PASS JUDGMENT NOT ON WHAT WE CHOOSE TO BELIEVE BUT RATHER ON WHAT HE; GOD MAKES POSSIBLE FOR ONE TO BELIEVE. WHICH IS WHY FRIEND I SUGGEST THAT YOU NEED TO PRAY MUCH FOR GODS UNDERSTANDING.

CCC #847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

I know Pat, a tiring matter. Yet for sure, the CC teaches a sort of assurance also. I mean her sacraments are for a purpose as well as many of her practices and beliefs.I spoke to soon above, for here you say the same thing of CC assurance.
Don’t forget the battling flesh and the desires of our heart. Things are spiritually discerned .What is it that we really desire ?

Blessings

It BEST be my friend What GOD Will’s.

God BLESS & guide you my friend,

Patrick

 

[benhur]

Also if Protestantism is right how can there POSSIBLY be THOUSANDS of differing sets of faith-beliefs & churches?

Hi Pat,

Again, for the umpteenth time, the slur of the 30,000 has some truth to it, as the slur that has some truth to it of having three popes at one time. Our churches live, and should live, in glass houses. Both are houses need dusting. It is like you see your neighbors dusty house and say they are not a legitimate house, failing to see your own dusty house.

But totally understand your to the 30,000. Indeed a stumbling block, and only a miracle can smooth out the path to better better understanding on the reformation.

Blessings

 

[rcwitness]

Hi Pat,

Again, for the umpteenth time, the slur of the 30,000 has some truth to it, as the slur that has some truth to it of having three popes at one time. Our churches live, and should live, in glass houses.

But totally understand your to the 30,000. Indeed a stumbling block, and only a miracle can smooth out the path to better better understanding on the reformation.

Blessings

Hey ben!

I agree the number 30,000 used to describe “serious division” is probably not very accurate. I don’t think it’s a point of contention. But aspects of the “denominations” being divided is very relevant and problematic for claiming the unity called for by Jesus and the the Apostles.

The situation of 3 “claiming” popes was resolved… when the denominations come together under one common faith, then that analogy might hold more weight, right?

 

[benhur]

Is there ANY bible evidence that God EVER approved; OK’s,* permitted*; ALLOWED ANY other FAITH beliefs I don’t wish to shout BUT I have asked this I think 5 times.

Hi Pat,

Again, you need to rephrase your questions and limit to one question, if you want one answer. “Approve” and “OK” is not the same as “allow, permit”. At least you eliminated “tolerate” from the question this time.

Anyways, I did answer and will answer again. God does not approve, OK falsehoods, or any other faith beliefs apart from Truth. However, God does "allow, permit " them to exist, kind of like the wheat with the tares.

Show me evidence that the Orthodox and Protestants are outside the Christian faith beliefs. They certainly are outside the Roman Catholic faith beliefs and vice versa.

Why do you ignore the evidence of the OT. Judaism was full of differing sets of “faith beliefs”.

For your position to have traction:The Bible MUST be wrong

God MUST have lied Mt 16:18-19; John 17:17-20, Mt 28:19-20; 2nd Tim. 3:16-17

Or you simply do not correctly understand the bible teachings; so which one is it?

The third. I understand but do not accept some of the CC’s understanding of God and the bible.

“There cannot be your truth & my truth pr there would be NO truth.” Where my friend is the fallacy in that statement?

Correct. No one is saying that. For the umpteenth time again, we both agree to absolute truth, and not relative truth. What you seem to argue against is that God would allow truth and falsehood to exist side by side, even in the ‘home’/church. Just because truth rests on the church pillars does not mean falsehoods do not work their way in.The promise is that Truth will be there, not that falsehoods won’t compete there also. There is no evidence that says a false brick will not be laid and remain for a time.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Hey ben!

I agree the number 30,000 used to describe “serious division” is probably not very accurate. I don’t think it’s a point of contention. But aspects of the “denominations” being divided is very relevant and problematic for claiming the unity called for by Jesus and the the Apostles.

The situation of 3 “claiming” popes was resolved… when the denominations come together under one common faith, then that analogy might hold more weight, right?

Hi rc,

Agree. However, dusting is an endless job, and won’t be resolved till His return. Thanks for discerning the 30 thing more fairly.

There is a nice allegory in Pilgrim’s Progress, with a nice sketch of a woman sweeping /dusting a floor . To keep the dust down she sprinkles water down first. That signifies how the Holy Spirit convicts but does not condemn us for our “dust”. Otherwise, we would gasp for air and almost be incapacitated at the chore.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Replied to rc also on this also, and thank you also for better understanding.

Blessings

 

[rcwitness]

Hi rc,

Agree. However, dusting is an endless job, and won’t be resolved till His return. Thanks for discerning the 30 thing more fairly.

There is a nice allegory in Pilgrim’s Progress, with a nice sketch of a woman sweeping /dusting a floor . To keep the dust down she sprinkles water down first. That signifies how the Holy Spirit convicts but does not condemn us for our “dust”. Otherwise, we would gasp for air and almost be incapacitated at the chore.

If you are referring to sins with the dust, then I can appreciate the allegory. However, if you are talking about officially confirmed Teaching, then I think it’s an inaccurate one. We all struggle and need to frequent confession with remorse. But the Church is the pillar of Truth, and she has the authority to bind and loose.

Sins not turned from may lead to death if they fulfill the qualifications of mortal sin.

If we avoid confession for long periods of time, then it’s like dirt collecting in corners and underneath things.

 

[Abu]

Benhur #456
I understand but do not accept some of the CC’s understanding of God and the bible.

You continue to reject Christ’s own Church when She teaches doctrines. What “understanding” of God, and of the Bible, do you reject?

Just because truth rests on the church pillars does not mean falsehoods do not work their way in.

No dogma nor doctrine, which is Her teaching authorised by Christ Himself, contains falsehoods. How could they?

St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).”
She is “the pillar and ground of the truth.”[1 Tim 3:15].

 

[benhur]

If you are referring to sins with the dust, then I can appreciate the allegory. However, if you are talking about officially confirmed Teaching, then I think it’s an inaccurate one. We all struggle and need to frequent confession with remorse. But the Church is the pillar of Truth, and she has the authority to bind and loose.

Sins not turned from may lead to death if they fulfill the qualifications of mortal sin.

If we avoid confession for long periods of time, then it’s like dirt collecting in corners and underneath things.

Hi rc,

I think the book mentioned the dust as personal sins/faults. I applied it to churches dirty laundry so to speak, or negative attributes, like our 30,000 or your 3 popes, or a host of various “faults” that even today churches must face, both P, and O, and CC. It is the attitude and purpose in which they are brought up that can make all the difference.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

You continue to reject Christ’s own Church when She teaches doctrines. What “understanding” of God, and of the Bible, do you reject?

Again, “Christ’s own” is redundant, but perhaps you intend hyperbole to show one church above the other.That is OK, for we should follow that which we believe to be the most faithful to truth.

No dogma nor doctrine, which is Her teaching authorised by Christ Himself, contains falsehoods. How could they?

Correct. But the presumption is just what does Christ authorize. And the church has always had to continually to discern that, even if it reaffirming what went before us.

She is “the pillar and ground of the truth.”[1 Tim 3:15].

That does not mean falsehood can not creep in to the full truth. Even with that , the truth is still there, just that now must be discerned.

A little bit like he who believes and is baptized is saved.He who does not believe is condemned. It does not say he who believes and is not baptized is condemned. So likewise that truth rests in a place does not mean untruth can not settle in also, truth is still there.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Hi J,

OK thank you, appreciate your better half’s viewpoint, always. Maybe it was you, but someone did post that CC and O are alike in that assertion of Catholicity, and claims to being the real McCoy. Believe it or not, I have heard some P teachers claim catholicity, just not ‘Roman’.

Blessings, to your household.

 

[benhur]

First of all, who is “we”?

Hi trc,

The we is us, as being his instruments, not withstanding also giftings and offices, of which we have variances with each other

And secondly, how do you determine what is from Jesus and what is not? We both agree that Scripture is from Him (although Catholics can see why Scripture is from His authority) but what about Scripture’s interpretation and the Lord’s will on matters not explicit in Scripture?

By the Holy Spirit, and that using everything at our disposal, from church, tradition, history, parents, teachers, even nature itself

I was assuming you have “genuine faith” of which there is only ONE, and which we are all able to possess and excercise. I’m not talking about the “measure in which you assent”.

2 Peter 1

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and savior Jesus Christ.

Amen.Thank you.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

.OF COURSE NOT IMPOSSIBLE!( that" Christianity is a singular faith church", benhur quote) Truth HAS TO BE singular per defined issue. HOW do you discount that fact?

Agree, but why do you then say the CC is the only singular faith church that Christ established. Another words, it seems not to be issue per issue, but church against church . That is the CC has every issue right primarily because she has to, and can not do otherwise.That is not item by item but by ‘church’.

Blessings

 

[Abu]

Benhur #463
“Christ’s own” is redundant, but perhaps you intend hyperbole to show one church above the other.

Since hyperbole means exaggeration, overstatement, magnification, embroidery, embellishment – how can you accuse the Christ of that?
Here are the Christ’s own words: **“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” **(Mt 16:18).

But your Scriptures continue:
"The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in My name, He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you." (John 14:26) "But when He comes, the Spirit of truth, He will guide you to all truth.”

That does not mean falsehood can not creep in to the full truth. Even with that , the truth is still there, just that now must be discerned.

So, NO, falsehood does NOT, and CANNOT, “creep in” to defined dogma nor doctrine for the whole Church on faith or on morals,

To imagine that makes Christ out to be a liar; to state that makes the individual either ignorant of Christ’s words or hopelessly confused without real reason, or bent on concealing His message establishing His Church with the fullness of Truth.