Do you have questions about Catholic beliefs & Practices

[benhur]

Is not a Baptist or Lutheran a Christian first ?

NO!

Hi Pat,

Again, you seem to judge not by issue by issue (which defines a Lutheran from Baptist from Catholic) but everything by church first. Like that you are baptized into the Body is secondary, but what church you belong to is primary.??? That’s OK though I disagree, but you are not alone.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Since hyperbole means exaggeration, overstatement, magnification, embroidery, embellishment – how can you accuse the Christ of that?

Hi Abu,

No, I said your wording, not Christ’s red letters, were redundant. You wrote, "Christ’s own church ". “Christ’s” and “own” mean the same thing. You could just write “Christ’s church” or “His own church”.

So, NO, falsehood does NOT, and CANNOT, “creep in” to defined dogma nor doctrine for the whole Church on faith or on morals,

OK, now what is the “whole church”, and then can not error creep in to* part* of the church, if even for a time ?

To imagine that makes Christ out to be a liar;

No, He also said false teachers would creep into the church. That does not negate fullness of truth. Why did He warn us if the HS would take care of it ? Again, like the OT, how do you know when to listen to a prophet calling out for repentance, even from a bad doctrine ? Why do you eliminate that possibility ? There is OT precedence. That is how God kept His promise of guidance in the past, but the CC claims exemption from that need.

 

[SyroMalankara]

What are the limits of “correction”, or should I say claimed correction? So which early reform actually corrected the claimed Catholic excesses - Luthers or Henrys? Which corrected them - Calvin or Zwingli? Maybe all of them were wrong and the correction was needed even further back - Mohammed? Or did he need an update - the Bab? And his fulfillment - disputed - Baha’u’llah? Or maybe more recent Yogananda?

 

[benhur]

What are the limits of “correction”, or should I say claimed correction? So which early reform actually corrected the claimed Catholic excesses - Luthers or Henrys? Which corrected them - Calvin or Zwingli? Maybe all of them were wrong and the correction was needed even further back - Mohammed? Or did he need an update - the Bab? And his fulfillment - disputed - Baha’u’llah? Or maybe more recent Yogananda?

Hi S,

Do we need to go to an extreme, and for what purpose, to toss the whole idea out of any correction, any ?

Blessings

 

[SyroMalankara]

No to define what is acceptable or legitimate correction and what is not, and why

 

[rcwitness]

The we is us, as being his instruments, not withstanding also giftings and offices, of which we have variances with each other By the Holy Spirit, and that using everything at our disposal, from church, tradition, history, parents, teachers, even nature itself

The context of this question of mine (“who is we?”) was that you implied we all possess the keys of the kingdom. Catholics believe the “keys” to bind and loose are in the hands of the chief bishop of Rome AND the college of bishops in communion with his office.

I will agree with you that His Holy Spirit guides us when we are open to being led. And one way He leads me, is through His appointed leaders.

I’m realizing that I have more than enough grace at my hands to have full knowledge of His Teachings AND His Will in order to obey Him in all things, as a member of His Church. What I’m struggling to actually do, is rely on Him to overcome my temptations in willing suffering. This makes it awkward and sad to try defending the Catholic faith.

You are right, His Holy Spirit is here struggling in every way to convict us what is right. And still, I do wrong things. Still I push Jesus away to do what I want… then I come back to Him when I want! It is ugly… I am the man who sins 7 times a day, and wants forgiveness. And it gets harder to be contrite. I have been a dog returning to my vomit.

I am being quite heavy, but it’s true. And I am sharing it because I need to stop trying to convince people of the faith, and just love Him. For my own soul, and my wife and kids, I need to love Jesus and do what is pleasing to Him.

If you believe you can love Him and do everything that is pleasing to Him in a denomination, then that is your conviction. I don’t think you will be against Him in very much. But, as for me, I will apply myself to Him at my Parish, because it is where I have been convicted to learn of Him, pray to Him, worship Him, break bread with Him, listen to Scripture, encourage and be encouraged with the brethren, offer my tithe, offer my assistance, ask for His Sacraments, bring my family, etc…

I hope you see this post as an honest confession, and with the desire that you hear Him in my humility and sorrow. I wish you His peace and joy… He is mighty!

 

[Abu]

Benhur #469
OK, now what is the “whole church”, and then can not error creep in to part of the church, if even for a time ?

The statement was crystal clear: **falsehood (error) CANNOT “creep in” to defined dogma nor doctrine for the whole Church on faith or on morals,
**
As dogma and doctrine are defined ONLY by Christ’s Magisterium (teaching authority) any other false “doctrine” is NOT from the teaching “CHURCH”, but from a member or members, whether lay, priest or bishop. Which is precisely why some over centuries have been declared dissenters, or in schism or in heresy.

how do you know when to listen to a prophet calling out for repentance, even from a bad doctrine ? Why do you eliminate that possibility ? There is OT precedence.

The O.T. has been superseded by Christ. How could Christ’s own Church teach anything “bad” as “doctrine”? In 2000 years Christ’s Church has never, and can never ever, teach “bad doctrine” to the whole Church on faith or morals, because of Christ’s clear mandate with which you should now be familiar.

Such constant fantasising against Christ and His Church concerning Her dogma and doctrine, with no facts whatsoever, indicate a mere feeling out of touch with reality. It is time to listen to the Saviour through His Church.

 

[benhur]

No to define what is acceptable or legitimate correction and what is not, and why

Agree, though discern is the word I prefer to define.

Blessings

 

[PJM]

Agree, but why do you then say the CC is the only singular faith church that Christ established. Another words, it seems not to be issue per issue, but church against church . That is the CC has every issue right primarily because she has to, and can not do otherwise.That is not item by item but by ‘church’.

Blessings

That my friend is an astute observation.

I do so because I’m speaking literally [fact- Mt 16:18-19 & Pentecost, Mt 28:18-19]; while you seem to be speaking metaphorically. From that perspective we are both right.However that does not mean at the same time that your understanding is correct. It is impossible [nothing else can be true] that one can associate “church” without inferring “Faith-beliefs.” They cannot be independent of each other. Hence differing “faith-beliefs” constitute different “churches.”

Under the very large umbrella of “Christianity”; certainly there is a degree [less than Protestants think]; but very profound nevertheless of unity. But this unity centers on God’s Truth. Christian Baptism [Jn 3:5 & Mt 28:18], and believe in the Blessed Trinity; and little else in the realms of faith-beliefs. And yes this does vary a bit by denomination.
We Catholics claim God’s TRUTHS because that is the expectation of Jesus as taught in the bible. Without full comprehension that TRUTH has to be singular per defined issue this factual concept is minimized to your detriment. Mortal men saying otherwise, does not make it so.

It’s interesting that the reformation Fathers clearly did not intend this umbrella of fellowship [some still don’t], that you assume to exist; rather they each intended and saw themselves as THEE alternative to Catholicism. Not a complemtary; but an alternative. That is HUGHE.

It cannot be biblically established that God ever intended [W / O] exception that Ge God desired and commanded complete acceptance of His:
One True God

One [and only one] True set of Faith beliefs

One Chosen people that Jesus termed “MY Church” Mt 16:18

Yes there is a grafting on of Protestants to the one Vine of Catholicism; but it is an imperfect and tenuous graft because of held beliefs that contradict what GOD Ordained, desires and commands. There cannot be unity amidst disunity, and that is why God choose just One truth. Amen

Continued Blessings,

PJM

 

[PJM]

Hi Pat,

Again, for the umpteenth time, the slur of the 30,000 has some truth to it, as the slur that has some truth to it of having three popes at one time. Our churches live, and should live, in glass houses. Both are houses need dusting. It is like you see your neighbors dusty house and say they are not a legitimate house, failing to see your own dusty house.

But totally understand your to the 30,000. Indeed a stumbling block, and only a miracle can smooth out the path to better better understanding on the reformation.

Blessings

My friend I mean no disrespect. Only pointing out what should be the obvious.

Until it is internalized that TRUTH can only be singular per defined issue; there can be no possibility of alike-minds.

I’m not “living in a glass house THROWING stones”, I’m merely attempting to give vivid illustrations to God willing, make a point…

As for the 3 popes: Only ONE of them was the REAL Pope The other themselves [and associates] choose to graft themselves on to the Chair of Peter. Usurp comes to mind.

I have not for quite some time mentioned the “30,000”. I don’t know, nor is it even relevant . God’s desire, plan and formation intended just one.

Also, it is important because you raise the point:

The RCC is:

One
Holy
Catholic
Apostolic

She [Mother Church] is incapable of sin. It is tbe Catholics within Her ranks that are sinners. That too is a critical distinction that needs to be understood.This is a tenet of Infallibility.

As to your final POST point.

In the context as I READ it, you suggest a personal perspective [which only exist because it aligns fully with the Teaching of the RCC]… I’m expressing the teachings of the RCC; not expressing a personally & independently held belief

It all gets back to two terms that MUST be comprehended:

“ONE”

“Truth”

God Bless you benhur,
PJm

 

[PJM]

Hi Pat,

Again, you need to rephrase your questions and limit to one question, if you want one answer. “Approve” and “OK” is not the same as “allow, permit”. At least you eliminated “tolerate” from the question this time.

Yea, I’m taking it more easy on you this time

Anyways, I did answer and will answer again. God does not approve, OK falsehoods, or any other faith beliefs apart from Truth. However, God does "allow, permit " them to exist, kind of like the wheat with the tares

None of which includes any of the adjectives I used.

Show me evidence that the Orthodox and Protestants are outside the Christian faith beliefs. They certainly are outside the Roman Catholic faith beliefs and vice versa

Here is your evidence.

Mt 16:18-19
John 17: 17-20
Mt 28:19-20

This my FRIEND is where I [we] fail to get through to you.

Did God DESIRE or in ANY manner rely on the Great Easter Eastern Schism or the reformation. to make HIS set of Faith beliefs available to humanity:shrug: Of course not And WHY NOT: because the Catholic Church “My Church” Mt 16:018 was sufficient to accomplish what God intended to accomplish..

Why do you ignore the evidence of the OT. Judaism was full of differing sets of “faith beliefs”.

My friend, I don’t ignore it. It was, as is Protestantism outside the Divine Will of God. … To “tolerate” in no way means to “accept it.” That fact is nor germane to our discussion.

The third. I understand but do not accept some of the CC’s understanding of God and the bible

And WHY NOT?
Mt. 28:18-19 “Going therefore, teach YOU [singular] all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU! [singular]: and behold I am with YOU! [singular] all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

Jn 17: 18-20 "As thou hast sent ME into the world, I also have sent TEEM [singular[ into the world.[/COLOR] And for THEM do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth**. And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;
.
What my friend are we Catholics missing here in our understanding vrs. yours?

Correct. No one is saying that. For the umpteenth time again, we both agree to absolute truth, and not relative truth

You 'do" in words but not in understanding

What you seem to argue against is that God would allow truth and falsehood to exist side by side, even in the ‘home’/church. Just because truth rests on the church pillars does not mean falsehoods do not work their way in.The promise is that Truth will be there, not that falsehoods won’t compete there also. There is no evidence that says a false brick will not be laid and remain for a time.

Blessings

This concept is not only foreign to me [Catholics} its inconceivable

Lk 8: 5-10
" [5] The sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

[6] And other some fell upon a rock: and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. [7] And other some fell among thorns, and the thorns growing up with it, choked it. [8] And other some fell upon good ground; and being sprung up, yielded fruit a hundredfold. Saying these things, he cried out: He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. [9] And his disciples asked him what this parable might be. [10] To whom he said: To you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to the rest in parables, that seeing they may not see, and hearing may not understand"

And I seem to recall in another telling of this parable cf. that the Master was asked if THEY should go full the weeds"? the Master replied no; it will be better [Divine Justice] to do so at the harvest.

Pray much my friend,

PJM**

 

[PJM]

Replied to rc also on this also, and thank you also for better understanding.

Blessings

the REASO [speaking here for MYSELF] that I use the term “THOUSANDS”; NOT “30,000” is GOD willing to make the point that seems incomprehensible to MANY; that “truth” HAS to Be singular per defined issue.

Without that logical understanding in comprehension [not merely words]; TRUTH can neve be discovered. Amen

I have often added this:

Cf. Of the multitude of differing beliefs; which one is THEE TRUTH & on what basis. It has NEVER been responded too:shrug:

I’m not “throwing stones” ONLY trying to make logic evident.

God Bless you,

PJM

God Bless you,
Patrick

 

[PJM]

Hi Pat,

Again, you seem to judge not by issue by issue (which defines a Lutheran from Baptist from Catholic) but everything by church first. Like that you are baptized into the Body is secondary, but what church you belong to is primary.??? That’s OK though I disagree, but you are not alone.

Blessings

I’m confussed

Am I NOT expressing my self precisely [correctly] or might it be you

Your seemingly pertinacity to equate all Christianity as being equal is a quicksand position.

Again it revolves around actually being able to **comprehend **that TRUTH has to be singular per defined issue.

There is unity BUT not conformity. Without conformity TRUTH CANNOT exist.

Blessings,

PJM

 

[Michael68]

Hi Pat,

Again, you seem to judge not by issue by issue (which defines a Lutheran from Baptist from Catholic) but everything by church first. Like that you are baptized into the Body is secondary, but what church you belong to is primary.??? That’s OK though I disagree, but you are not alone.

Blessings

Hello,

1 Timothy 3:15 explains this

 

[PJM]

Hi Pat,

Again, you seem to judge not by issue by issue (which defines a Lutheran from Baptist from Catholic) but everything by church first. Like that you are baptized into the Body is secondary, but what church you belong to is primary.??? That’s OK though I disagree, but you are not alone.

Blessings

As I attempted to express in prior POST: “The Body in question here” is to be correctly understood as TWO-distinct units; NOT so much as a bodies left & right hand or foot; rather as a “body” HAVING [God willing,normally]both a a left and a right foot and hand.

While the unity and connection of “One Church” is factual & essential; it is NOT to be presumed that each is truly “equal.”] True equality demands identical faith beliefs.

God Bless you,
PJM
…

 

[PJM]

Hello,

1 Timothy 3:15 explains this

1st Timothy 3:15

[15] But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Amen

Nicely done, thanks,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

The context of this question of mine (“who is we?”) was that you implied we all possess the keys of the kingdom. Catholics believe the “keys” to bind and loose are in the hands of the chief bishop of Rome AND the college of bishops in communion with his office.

I will agree with you that His Holy Spirit guides us when we are open to being led. And one way He leads me, is through His appointed leaders.

I’m realizing that I have more than enough grace at my hands to have full knowledge of His Teachings AND His Will in order to obey Him in all things, as a member of His Church. What I’m struggling to actually do, is rely on Him to overcome my temptations in willing suffering. This makes it awkward and sad to try defending the Catholic faith.

You are right, His Holy Spirit is here struggling in every way to convict us what is right. And still, I do wrong things. Still I push Jesus away to do what I want… then I come back to Him when I want! It is ugly… I am the man who sins 7 times a day, and wants forgiveness. And it gets harder to be contrite. I have been a dog returning to my vomit.

**I am being quite heavy, but it’s true. And I am sharing it because I need to stop trying to convince people of the faith, and just love Him. For my own soul, and my wife and kids, I need to love Jesus and do what is pleasing to Him. **

If you believe you can love Him and do everything that is pleasing to Him in a denomination, then that is your conviction. I don’t think you will be against Him in very much. But, as for me, I will apply myself to Him at my Parish, because it is where I have been convicted to learn of Him, pray to Him, worship Him, break bread with Him, listen to Scripture, encourage and be encouraged with the brethren, offer my tithe, offer my assistance, ask for His Sacraments, bring my family, etc…

I hope you see this post as an honest confession, and with the desire that you hear Him in my humility and sorrow. I wish you His peace and joy… He is mighty!

NO! My dear friend; that is NOT what the Holy Spirit or the RCC teaches.

We ARE as we have been founded to be:

A MISSIONARY CHURCH; each of us are to use what ever talents, knowledge, gifts we have to build up Christ Body; HIS Catholic Church. [Mt 28:18-20 & ist Cor 12]

It is not easy because God intends it NOT to be

You have gifts my friend from God; to be used to Glorify god by sharing always His Truth

God Bless you; and by ALL means do LOVE greatly:heart:

Patrick

 

[rcwitness]

NO! My dear friend; that is NOT what the Holy Spirit or the RCC teaches.

We ARE as we have been founded to be:

A MISSIONARY CHURCH; each of us are to use what ever talents, knowledge, gifts we have to build up Christ Body; HIS Catholic Church. [Mt 28:18-20 & ist Cor 12]

It is not easy because God intends it NOT to be

You have gifts my friend from God; to be used to Glorify god by sharing always His Truth

God Bless you; and by ALL means do LOVE greatly:heart:

Patrick

Hey bro… I guess what I’m trying to say, is that I believe in sharing what I have, and if I am not enduring in the faith, I should not be trying to convince others of certain practices while I am rejecting Jesus in other ways.

I want Jesus to compel others through my actions and behavior instead of thinking that I am a Teacher.

James 3

"Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness.2For we all make many mistakes, and if any one makes no mistakes in what he says he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body also.3*If we put bits into the mouths of horses that they may obey us, we guide their whole bodies.4Look at the ships also; though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, they are guided by a very small rudder wherever the will of the pilot directs.5So the tongue is a little member and boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by a small fire!

Not that I know of anything I have said that is not true, but if I make myself appear clean, I am deceiving others. So I must confess that I have rejected Jesus worse than my “protestant” brothers in what I am trying to convince them about!

 

[benhur]

The context of this question of mine (“who is we?”) was that you implied we all possess the keys of the kingdom. Catholics believe the “keys” to bind and loose are in the hands of the chief bishop of Rome AND the college of bishops in communion with his office.

I will agree with you that His Holy Spirit guides us when we are open to being led. And one way He leads me, is through His appointed leaders.

I’m realizing that I have more than enough grace at my hands to have full knowledge of His Teachings AND His Will in order to obey Him in all things, as a member of His Church. What I’m struggling to actually do, is rely on Him to overcome my temptations in willing suffering. This makes it awkward and sad to try defending the Catholic faith.

You are right, His Holy Spirit is here struggling in every way to convict us what is right. And still, I do wrong things. Still I push Jesus away to do what I want… then I come back to Him when I want! It is ugly… I am the man who sins 7 times a day, and wants forgiveness. And it gets harder to be contrite. I have been a dog returning to my vomit.

I am being quite heavy, but it’s true. And I am sharing it because I need to stop trying to convince people of the faith, and just love Him. For my own soul, and my wife and kids, I need to love Jesus and do what is pleasing to Him.

If you believe you can love Him and do everything that is pleasing to Him in a denomination, then that is your conviction. I don’t think you will be against Him in very much. But, as for me, I will apply myself to Him at my Parish, because it is where I have been convicted to learn of Him, pray to Him, worship Him, break bread with Him, listen to Scripture, encourage and be encouraged with the brethren, offer my tithe, offer my assistance, ask for His Sacraments, bring my family, etc…

I hope you see this post as an honest confession, and with the desire that you hear Him in my humility and sorrow. I wish you His peace and joy… He is mighty!

HI rc,

Sorry I did not answer sooner.

I do take your post as quite straightforward and from the heart. Can’t ask for more than that. Thank you. I would add we all strive to please the Lord, to be in the Spirit, to fight against the flesh. I am not as holy, spiritual as I should be. As Paul said though, “thanks be to God for the Lord Jesus”,and that in regards to waging war with his flesh also.

I agree we also have our own pastures, that is wherever we are, we are before Him, and hopefully to please. There is a time for discussion of belief variances, but also a time to get "real’ , with the Lord, and each other. Nothing like being broken, before Him, even each other, setting aside our parochial wits, and resting on surer foundations (Him).

Again, thank you for saying I can please Him where I am at , and not, according to the CC, against Him in much. And amen to your “He is mighty”. He can never love us more than He does already.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

" Why do you ignore the evidence of the OT? Judaism was full of differing sets of “faith beliefs” question from benhur. Answer from PJM: My friend, I don’t ignore it. It was, as is Protestantism outside the Divine Will of God. … To “tolerate” in no way means to “accept it.” That fact is nor germane to our discussion.

Can you please tell me which set of faith beliefs in Judaism was the right one, which was the Divine will of God ? Did Jesus ever say the Pharisees had it, or the Sadducees or the Hasidics, or Essenes or a host of others ? He certainly said salvation by the divine will of God was thru the Jews, so which ones ? Were the one true set of faith beliefs held by any one faction ?

Blessings