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blanchardman
Guest
He wrestled with the second person of the Trinity.What about when Jacob wrestled with God?Or whom did he wrestle with?
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PJM
Guest
REALLY:shrug:
Exodus 33:11
“And the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man is wont to speak to his friend. And when he returned into the camp, his servant Josue, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not from the tabernacle.”
Haydock’s Commentary explaination
Ver. 11. Face to face. That is, in a most familiar manner. Though, as we learn from this very chapter, Moses could not see the face of the Lord. (Challoner) — The angel assumed a human form, (Menochius) which Moses knew could not fully display the majesty of God; and hence he begs to see his face, or his glory, (ver. 13, 18,) which God declares is impossible for any mortal to do, ver. 20. (Haydock) — He addresses him, however, with unusual condescension, and speaks to him without any ambiguity, “without any medium,” as the Arabic expresses it. Other prophets were instructed by visions, and were filled with terror, Daniel x. 8. — Young man, though 50 years old, and the general who defeated the Amalecites, chap. xvii. 13. Puer means a servant also, in which capacity Josue waited on Moses, and was alone allowed to be present with him in the tabernacle. He did not sleep there, (Calmet) but guarded it from all profanation. Some say he was still called young, because he was unmarried; in which sense the Chaldean styles him hullema,which corresponds with the Hebrew halma, a virgin. (Serarius) (Tirinus)
END QUOTE
Verse 20
“20 And again he said: Thou canst not see my face: for man shall not see me, and live.”
Haydock again:
Ver. 20. My face, even in my assumed form. (Menochius) — The effulgence would cause death, as was commonly believed, Genesis xiii. 16. To behold the divine essence, we must be divested of our mortal body, 1 Corinthians ii. 9. (St. Gregory of Nazianzus, or. 49.) (Haydock) — Moses, therefore, did not see it on earth, though he had greater favours shewn to him than the other prophets, Numbers xii. 6. (Theodoret, q. 68; St. Chrysostom; &c.) (Worthington End QUOTE
God Bless you,
Patrick
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PJM
Guest
HERE’S HOW
[1] The “Day of the Lord” as I have shown in a previous post for the Thread relates to the “Immediate -Judgment” that takes palce at the instant of our Mortal death.
Because Purgatory has a critical role for MANY but not all souls] in the possibility of their Eternal Life in Heaven; it clearly DOES have a critical part of Judgment.
Blessings,
PJM
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PJM
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PJM
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Which meansYou know he does. It is professed in the Nicene Creed in the Latin Mass.
That Jesus BODY and SOUL ARE in heaven
John 4:23-24
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. [24] ***God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth. ***
My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible? Which BTW is a Catholic Book.
Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another
Verse, passage or teaching:
**Were this even the slightest possibility;[it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or lean Christ Faith” **
God Bless,
PJM
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PJM
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rcwitness
Guest
I’m not understanding the purpose of this post.Which means
That Jesus BODY and SOUL ARE in heaven
John 4:23-24
[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him. [24] ***God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth. ***
My friend have you ever been exposed to the One Infallible Rule for right understanding of the Bible? Which BTW is a Catholic Book.
Never Ever; can, may or DOES
One verse, passage or teaching have the power or authority to
Invalidate, make void or override another
Verse, passage or teaching:
**Were this even the slightest possibility;[it’s NOT!] it would render the entire Bible useless to teach or lean Christ Faith” **
God Bless,
PJM
Blanchardman was asking if you believe something professed in our faith’s creed.
If you are able to provide an expanded explanation of that particular article of the faith, great! But it is what we believe. Jesus “sits at the right hand of the Father”.
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blanchardman
Guest
As I stated in post #546 it can also refer to a future event.HERE’S HOW
[1] The “Day of the Lord” as I have shown in a previous post for the Thread relates to the “Immediate -Judgment” that takes palce at the instant of our Mortal death.
Because Purgatory has a critical role for MANY but not all souls] in the possibility of their Eternal Life in Heaven; it clearly DOES have a critical part of Judgment.
Blessings,
PJM
Malachi 3:2-3 and Zechariah 13:9 also speak of this event.
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fbl9
Guest
Genesis32:31 .".I have seen a HEAVENLY BEING…" not i seen God or the Lord .
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blanchardman
Guest
Does Gen 1:1 read “In the beginning a heavenly being …” or “In the beginning GOD…”?
The Hebrew word in Gen 32:30(31)is the same, Elohim (GOD).
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PJM
Guest
Genesis 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Phanuel, saying: I have seen God face to face, and my soul has been saved.
Haydock’s Commentary
Ver. 30. Phanuel. This word signifies the face of God, or the sight, or seeing of God. (Challoner) — Hebrew reads here Peni-el, though it has Phanuel in the next verse. Jacob thus returns thanks to God for the preservation of his life, after having seen God or his angel in a corporeal form, and not in a dream only. (Calmet)
Exodus 33: 11
[11] And the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man is wont to speak to his friend. And when he returned into the camp, his servant Josue the son of Nun, a young man, departed not from the tabernacle.
Haydock’s Commentary
Verse 11
Face to face. That is, in a most familiar manner. Though, as we learn from this very chapter, Moses could not see the face of the Lord. (Challoner) — The angel assumed a human form, (Menochius) which Moses knew could not fully display the majesty of God; and hence he begs to see his face, or his glory, (ver. 13, 18,) which God declares is impossible for any mortal to do, ver. 20. (Haydock) — He addresses him, however, with unusual condescension, and speaks to him without any ambiguity, “without any medium,” as the Arabic expresses it. Other prophets were instructed by visions, and were filled with terror, Daniel x. 8. — Young man, though 50 years old, and the general who defeated the Amalecites, chap. xvii. 13. Puer means a servant also, in which capacity Josue waited on Moses, and was alone allowed to be present with him in the tabernacle. He did not sleep there, (Calmet) but guarded it from all profanation. Some say he was still called young, because he was unmarried; in which sense the Chaldean styles him hullema, which corresponds with the Hebrew halma, a virgin. (Serarius) (Tirinus)
** Numbers 14:14**
And the inhabitants of this land, (who have heard that thou, O Lord, art among this people, and art seen face to face, and thy cloud protecteth them, and thou goest before them in a pillar of a cloud by day, and in a pillar of fire by night
** Deuteronomy 5:4**
He spoke to us face to face in the mount out of the midst of fire
Judges 6:22
And Gedeon seeing that it was the angel of the Lord, said: Alas, my Lord God: for I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face.
God Bless you
PJM
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PJM
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THANKS, I forgot that one:shrug:
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blanchardman
Guest
This question is for PJM also, what bible is this quote from?
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benhur
Guest
I would say from those explicit scriptures you and i have derived implicit understanding, right or wrong.
And what is /was the reality when there is/was no choice, freedom of conscience and only one of several interpretations is/was allowed ?
Again, the error in presumption is that if consent is not given to a particular interpretation there is no consent anywhere else. Shall I say you do not assent to Christ’s reality thru the Reformation?
Understand. Thank you . Goes both ways. Hard to support your idea that any non -Catholic individual church lacks in His graces and provision to complete that which their members were apprehended for.
Blessings
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benhur
Guest
Hi rc’
Not sure I justify, promote division. I only state, with your agreement I think, their existence in both testaments. I go further that God is not surprised, and has it all under control, to His glory. That all His promises will be kept. It seems then more rational to what we observe that God safeguards are not against not having division," avoidance of division", but of having a different definition of Church, that understands a different kind of unity, an invisible unity, now even , for we will all be unified at the wedding quite visibly. His kingdom is not of this world yet. Only when you see or define His kingdom as now visible can you then obviously see certain divisions* as God not keeping His promises.* But can you see any substantial division with those who are now written in the Lamb’s book of life ? The only real division is whether you are in the book or not. If you are in the Book, you are unified with those also written in.
Blessings
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benhur
Guest
Hi rc’
I think the OT scriptures are also prophetic of what is to come in the last days , and the new kingdom on Earth. It shows the covenant also to be a bit conditional.
The new is better, and Our hearts have His ways written on them like never before . He graces us unconditionally in that regard . That does not however say wolves will not creep in, but that His sheep will heed His voice, and the goats will not. I do not see it as a promise of no goats. So now we are stuck with discernment between the goats/sheep. And the sheep must discern His voice on many matters also. Having all the sheep discern exactly alike on all points is beyond the scope of a visible church/office but keeps the Paraclete quite busy.
Blessings
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Abu
Guest
Where and when did the Christ give freedom to choose to knowingly reject His teaching for any and every “interpretation”? Can you quote His words?
Since when has “freedom of conscience” meant licence to choose to go against the Christ’s plain words creating His Own Church?
The “particular interpretation” in reality consists in Christ’s mandate from the Sacred Scriptures which you profess to follow! You have His plain words establishing His Church.
The revolt is a reality by choosing to reject much of His teaching through His own Church resulting in thousands of differing sects.
So much of Christ’s meaning and teaching were rejected by the designed “split” which lost infallibility, dogma and doctrine, lost the priesthood and therefore many sacraments, and allowed contraception, divorce and remarriage, abortion, euthanasia etc. No real follower of Christ would want to encourage others to deny Him thus.
But a great Lutheran who became a great Catholic hopes for the reconciliation he made to become a reality for all Lutherans.
As a former Lutheran, convert Fr Richard John Neuhaus has said:
‘The “Body of Christ,” the “Bride of Christ,” the Church as the bride, Christ as the bridegroom, the corporate sacramental images of salvation – Cardinal Ratzinger has said, I think very insightfully, that the difference between the Protestant and the Catholic understanding of Christian existence is that, for the Protestant, faith in Christ and faith in the Church are two different questions, and most Protestants never even get to the second question."
‘I would thank God if it turned out that my judgment in the late 1980s was wrong. If a hundred years from now, say, there really is an ecclesial, corporate reconciliation between Lutheranism and the Catholic Church – and if I am around the throne of grace, as I hope I will be – I will join the angels and saints in rejoicing at that, hoping that the decision I made in 1990 contributed to it. But that’s all in God’s hands, which is exactly where it should be.’
wittenburgdoorinterviews.blog…n-neuhaus.html
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benhur
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Hi PJM,
He is not perplexed, nor does He have to justify Himself in any situation.
I beg to differ. I do not think anyone of us think we have taken on a relatively inferior set of beliefs.
Goes both ways. "His story’ is open to interpretation, preferably His.We ARE however the ONT True Faith and Church established by Christ. Provable by the bible and historically as well.
Pray, even if it reveals disproving facts ? May He grant us His desires, otherwise what we seek we shall find (our own justification).Unless you can factually /objectively disprove that claim; then friend you might consider praying about it.
Blessings,
R
rcwitness
Guest
Hey ben,
I don’t want to be accusational, yet I believe that mature members of churches which are in a separated communion do promote the division which they are in.
Yes, in the Day of the Lord’s judgement, we will be separated by Him who sees everything about a person. We do not. Though some things are visible, for example, what we profess and the Sacraments we uphold. Also, our ordained leaders are very visible.
But we will never know, or worry ourselves with trying to know who is in the Book of Life. On the other hand, we care (or should!) if any are not in His grace. But there is One Church who we labor within. From my perspective, people like yourself, are in the Catholic Church. However, there is resistance to enter fully. But I don’t get offended by this as much as when people, like myself, do not resist sins against the Lord of this Church, even though I enjoy the full grace of His Communion!
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