Do you have questions about Catholic beliefs & Practices

[Abu]

Blanchardman #609
There is no biblical support for purgatory.

Apparently like the fantasy that there is no biblical support for Christ’s own Catholic Church when He confirmed: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [Mt 28:19-20].

For even the Protestant Bible has King David and his men fasting for the dead “for Saul and for Jonathan” etc. [2 Sam 1:12 = 2 kings 1:12].

964. How do you prove the existence of such a state?
'In Matt. V., 26, Christ, in condemning sin, speaks of liberation only after expiation. “Thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.” In Matt. XII., 32, He speaks of sin which “shall not be forgiven either in this world or in the world to come.” Any remission of the effects of sin in the next world can refer only to Purgatory. Above all St. Paul tells us that the day of judgment will try each man’s work. That day is after death, when the soul goes to meet its God. What is the result of that judgment? If a man’s work will not stand the test St. Paul says that “he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” 1 Cor. III., 15. This cannot refer to eternal loss in hell, for no one is saved there. Nor can it refer to heaven, for there is no suffering in heaven. Purgatory alone can explain this text As a matter of fact, all Christians believed in Purgatory until the Reformation, when the reformers began their rejection of Christian doctrines at will. Prayer for the dead was ever the prevailing custom, in accordance with the recommendation of the Bible itself.** “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins.” **2 Mach. XII., 46. Prayer for the dead supposes a soul not in heaven where it does not need the help of prayer, nor in hell where prayer cannot assist it. Some intermediate state of purification and need, where prayer can help, is necessary. And the doctrine is most reasonable. **“Nothing defiled shall enter heaven.” **Rev. XXL, 27. Yet not all defilement should cost man the loss of his soul. Even in this life human justice does not inflict capital punishment for every crime. Small offenses are punished by fines or by temporary imprisonment, after which the delinquent is liberated.’ [My emphases].
Catholic Apologetics Online
radioreplies.info/site-search.php?s=20&q=Purgatory

 

[blanchardman]

You are welcome. I like that site alot. It has tons of translations and an easy to use program.

We believe everyone will be resurrected, and Purgatory is an aspect of judgment of sins unrepentant and turned from in heart and action. Yet the person is bound for heaven by the grace of God they believed on.

I understand the Catholic position. I just don’t see any biblical evidence for it.

 

[rcwitness]

I understand the Catholic position. I just don’t see any biblical evidence for it.

if you understand the Catholic position, then you would see the biblical evidence.

Matt. 18

Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.24When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents25and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.26So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’27And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt.28But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denariiand seizing him by the throat he said, ‘Pay what you owe.’29So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’30He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt.31When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place.32Then his lord summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me;33and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’34And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers,*till he should pay all his debt.35So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

 

[blanchardman]

Apparently like the fantasy that there is no biblical support for Christ’s own Catholic Church when He confirmed: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [Mt 28:19-20].

For even the Protestant Bible has King David and his men fasting for the dead “for Saul and for Jonathan” etc. [2 Sam 1:12 = 2 kings 1:12].

964. How do you prove the existence of such a state?
'In Matt. V., 26, Christ, in condemning sin, speaks of liberation only after expiation. “Thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.” In Matt. XII., 32, He speaks of sin which “shall not be forgiven either in this world or in the world to come.” Any remission of the effects of sin in the next world can refer only to Purgatory. Above all St. Paul tells us that the day of judgment will try each man’s work. That day is after death, when the soul goes to meet its God. What is the result of that judgment? If a man’s work will not stand the test St. Paul says that “he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.” 1 Cor. III., 15. This cannot refer to eternal loss in hell, for no one is saved there. Nor can it refer to heaven, for there is no suffering in heaven. Purgatory alone can explain this text As a matter of fact, all Christians believed in Purgatory until the Reformation, when the reformers began their rejection of Christian doctrines at will. Prayer for the dead was ever the prevailing custom, in accordance with the recommendation of the Bible itself.** “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from their sins.” **2 Mach. XII., 46. Prayer for the dead supposes a soul not in heaven where it does not need the help of prayer, nor in hell where prayer cannot assist it. Some intermediate state of purification and need, where prayer can help, is necessary. And the doctrine is most reasonable. **“Nothing defiled shall enter heaven.” **Rev. XXL, 27. Yet not all defilement should cost man the loss of his soul. Even in this life human justice does not inflict capital punishment for every crime. Small offenses are punished by fines or by temporary imprisonment, after which the delinquent is liberated.’ [My emphases].
Catholic Apologetics Online
radioreplies.info/site-search.php?s=20&q=Purgatory

I have responded to all these points in earlier posts.

 

[Abu]

Truth should not be stifled.

See the reality of truth by Tim Staples re Purgatory at:
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/is-purgatory-in-the-bible
Excerpts:

1. Purgatory is alluded to in the Bible in I Cor. 3:11-15 as I said in my post. 2. Catholics are the first Christians, so if its Catholic doctrine, it’s Christian doctrine. 3. We agree that Christ is the propitiation for our sins, but we still have to apply what he did on the cross to our lives by our cooperation (see I John 1:7-9). Purgatory is another way the finished work of Christ is applied to our lives. 4. Once we die, our eternity is sealed. If we have reached the age of accountability, there are only two possibilities: heaven or hell. Purgatory is a clean-up station on the way to heaven where the merits of Christ and his saints serve to cleanse members of Christ who are in need so that they may “walk with [Christ] in white” (Rev. 3:4; cf. 19:8).

As members of the body of Christ we can indeed “ask, and God will give him life… whose sin is not deadly” (I John 5:16). 5. We agree that there is an immediate judgment after death as Heb. 9:27 says, but I Cor. 3:11-15 includes this state of purging as part of that judgment. 6. The thief on the cross may not have needed further purification after death. He suffered greatly on the cross and his penance may have been sufficient, but the text does not say. It only says he would be with Christ “in paradise” that day. That would have represented the “holding place” that all of the Old Testament dead went to before the resurrection (see I Peter 3:19). He would not have been able to attain to the beatific vision until the resurrection (see Romans 4:25) three days later. He may well have suffered in Purgatory in that time, or he may not have (if he had no need). God alone knows.

The Bible never says what Jesus did on the cross “cleanses all of our sin, past, present and future,” if by that you mean there is nothing we have to do in order for Christ’s sacrifice to be efficacious in our lives. In fact, the context of the very text you cited makes that clear. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves… If we confess our sins, he… will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” [Re 1Jn 1: 7-9] Verse 7 says, “If we walk in the light as he is in the light… the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us…” We must “walk;” we must “confess,” in order for Christ’s sacrifice to be applied to our lives. I Cor. 3:11-15 includes suffering in that mix as well (as does Romans 8:17; Heb. 12:10-14; II Cor. 1:6; Col. 1:24, etc.).

 

[blanchardman]

Truth should not be stifled.

See the reality of truth by Tim Staples re Purgatory at:
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/is-purgatory-in-the-bible
Excerpts:

1. Purgatory is alluded to in the Bible in I Cor. 3:11-15 as I said in my post. 2. Catholics are the first Christians, so if its Catholic doctrine, it’s Christian doctrine. 3. We agree that Christ is the propitiation for our sins, but we still have to apply what he did on the cross to our lives by our cooperation (see I John 1:7-9). Purgatory is another way the finished work of Christ is applied to our lives. 4. Once we die, our eternity is sealed. If we have reached the age of accountability, there are only two possibilities: heaven or hell. Purgatory is a clean-up station on the way to heaven where the merits of Christ and his saints serve to cleanse members of Christ who are in need so that they may “walk with [Christ] in white” (Rev. 3:4; cf. 19:8).

As members of the body of Christ we can indeed “ask, and God will give him life… whose sin is not deadly” (I John 5:16). 5. We agree that there is an immediate judgment after death as Heb. 9:27 says, but I Cor. 3:11-15 includes this state of purging as part of that judgment. 6. The thief on the cross may not have needed further purification after death. He suffered greatly on the cross and his penance may have been sufficient, but the text does not say. It only says he would be with Christ “in paradise” that day. That would have represented the “holding place” that all of the Old Testament dead went to before the resurrection (see I Peter 3:19). He would not have been able to attain to the beatific vision until the resurrection (see Romans 4:25) three days later. He may well have suffered in Purgatory in that time, or he may not have (if he had no need). God alone knows.

The Bible never says what Jesus did on the cross “cleanses all of our sin, past, present and future,” if by that you mean there is nothing we have to do in order for Christ’s sacrifice to be efficacious in our lives. In fact, the context of the very text you cited makes that clear. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves… If we confess our sins, he… will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” [Re 1Jn 1: 7-9] Verse 7 says, “If we walk in the light as he is in the light… the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us…” We must “walk;” we must “confess,” in order for Christ’s sacrifice to be applied to our lives. I Cor. 3:11-15 includes suffering in that mix as well (as does Romans 8:17; Heb. 12:10-14; II Cor. 1:6; Col. 1:24, etc.).

1 John 1:9 Here John separates sin and unrightousness. We are cleansed of unrightousness. Could this include all debts?
Hebrews 9:27-28 Please note that in the very next verse he connects the judgment to the return of Jesus and the resurrection. In the OT when the Jews prayed for the dead it was for favor after the resurrection.

For PJM and others 1John 1:9 is “imputed rightousness”.

 

[rcwitness]

1 John 1:9 Here John separates sin and unrightousness. We are cleansed of unrightousness. Could this include all debts?
Hebrews 9:27-28 Please note that in the very next verse he connects the judgment to the return of Jesus and the resurrection. In the OT when the Jews prayed for the dead it was for favor after the resurrection.

For PJM and others 1John 1:9 is “imputed rightousness”.

Purgatory is not associated with “time”. I feel like you are fixed on it being before Christ’s return.

 

[blanchardman]

Purgatory is not associated with “time”. I feel like you are fixed on it being before Christ’s return.

No. I have asked for biblical evidence. You and others keep posting verses that speak of an event that happens after the resurrection. The OT Jews did not believe in purgatory as is evident in the verses in 2 Maccabees.
You say purgatory is where most Catholics go immediately after death (unless they are headed to hell).
If the verses you post are speaking of an event that happens after the resurrection they are not evidence of something that happens right after death.

 

[rcwitness]

No. I have asked for biblical evidence. You and others keep posting verses that speak of an event that happens after the resurrection. The OT Jews did not believe in purgatory as is evident in the verses in 2 Maccabees.
You say purgatory is where most Catholics go immediately after death (unless they are headed to hell).
If the verses you post are speaking of an event that happens after the resurrection they are not evidence of something that happens right after death.

There is “a time” relative to our world, and “a time” relative to events after our death.

Is the resurrection not at the end of time in this world?

 

[blanchardman]

There is “a time” relative to our world, and “a time” relative to events after our death.

Is the resurrection not at the end of time in this world?

For us, the “saints”, there will be 1000 years when we will “reign” with Jesus in His kingdom.

 

[rcwitness]

For us, the “saints”, there will be 1000 years when we will “reign” with Jesus in His kingdom.

How long will 1000 yrs be in the next life?

 

[gazelam]

Since Catholic teaching is that the consecrated bread and the consecrated wine both consist of the “body, blood, soul, and divinity” of Christ, the Catholic Church teaches that receiving either (and also both) is sufficient for Communion. And I correct so far?

John 6:54, 55 states: Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

My question is this: If Christ’s blood is found in the consecrated bread, then wouldn’t the recipient who receives only the bread be eating the blood, instead of drinking it? Same question for the consecrated wine: wouldn’t the recipient who receives only the wine be drinking Christ’s body, instead of eating it? Thanks in advance.

 

[rcwitness]

Since Catholic teaching is that the consecrated bread and the consecrated wine both consist of the “body, blood, soul, and divinity” of Christ, the Catholic Church teaches that receiving either (and also both) is sufficient for Communion. And I correct so far?

John 6:54, 55 states: Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

My question is this: If Christ’s blood is found in the consecrated bread, then wouldn’t the recipient who receives only the bread be eating the blood, instead of drinking it? Same question for the consecrated wine: wouldn’t the recipient who receives only the wine be drinking Christ’s body, instead of eating it? Thanks in advance.

Sure… The point is consuming what has been consecrated by the Word. Right?

 

[gazelam]

Sure… The point is consuming what has been consecrated by the Word. Right?

It seems odd (at least to me) to insist on a literal interpretation of the bread and the wine becoming actual body and blood, and then to take a position that the phrase “eats and drinks” doesn’t have to be taken literally.

Matthew 4:4 He said in reply, “It is written:‘One does not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes forth from the mouth of God.’”

 

[PJM]

1 John 1:9 Here John separates sin and unrightousness. We are cleansed of unrightousness. Could this include all debts?
Hebrews 9:27-28 Please note that in the very next verse he connects the judgment to the return of Jesus and the resurrection. In the OT when the Jews prayed for the dead it was for favor after the resurrection.

For PJM and others 1John 1:9 is “imputed rightousness”.

**“Could 1 John 9 include all debts?” **

No, and here’s why.

A simple definition of God is:

GOD IS ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED

Then we ask a simple question:

ARE JUSTICE & FAIRNESS GOOD THINGS"

Of Course they are, so we can logically conclude that God in order to BE God; MUST in an absolute sense be both 'Good & Fair." Agreed?

The common {but not necessarily consistent} position of imputed righteousness DENIES God’s Sovereign RIGHT to determine just how a Soul {that is to say: to SET the Conditions for salvation} is or will possibly be saved.

So here are the glaring issues with that theology:

1. It would mean that GOD judges Catholics {the one true faith that He Jesus choose to establish… Mt 10:1-10; Mt 16:18-19; John 17:17-20 & Mt 28:19-20 as far more tenuous, demanding and difficult to attain; THUS making God into god; unfalr and unjust
2. The theology that GOD choose to DO ALL OF THE HARD WORK for a Soul’s salvation is OFTEN repudiated in the bible itself:

**SUFFERING **

** Take Up your Cross and Follow Me**
Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.** Luke.9: 23 **And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. **Luke.14: 7 ****Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” ** {Means: cannot attain heaven}

Heb.6: 10 “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.”

Rev.2: 23 “and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches shall know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.”

1. Consider also the invention date of this theology is ONLY about 500 years Old; while what the CC teaches dates back directly to Jesus & the Apostles, about 2,000 years ago

2nd Tim 3:16-17
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, [17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

So no my friend your posed position is not possible.

Thanks for asking,

PJM

 

[PJM]

No. I have asked for biblical evidence. You and others keep posting verses that speak of an event that happens after the resurrection. The OT Jews did not believe in purgatory as is evident in the verses in 2 Maccabees.
You say purgatory is where most Catholics go immediately after death (unless they are headed to hell).
If the verses you post are speaking of an event that happens after the resurrection they are not evidence of something that happens right after death.

WHAT:dts:

OF COURSE it’s AFTER the resurrection!

THAT is precisely WHY we are called “An Easter People!”

The Birth of Jesus, as astounding and profound as it is; would have been wasted; YES, that is the word I meant to say; had NOT the Passion , DEATH, & Resurrection ttaken place.

It is precisely & exclusively {again carefully chosen words} through the Resurrection of Jesus that we too MIGHT attain Eternal Life in Heaven; which had been LOCKED as a consequence of Original Sin.

The “Death-Consequence” of Original Sin introduced into the prior “perfect existence” of the Garden Of Eden, included BOTH corporal -death and Eternal-separation of the Beatific Vision. {Neither was the original PLAN of God}. The reopening of heavens gate {singular} Mt 16:18; was theologically; the MOST important fruit of the Resurrection.

GOOGLE: “limbo of the Fathers”.

God Bless you,

PJM

 

[PJM]

No. I have asked for biblical evidence. You and others keep posting verses that speak of an event that happens after the resurrection. The OT Jews did not believe in purgatory as is evident in the verses in 2 Maccabees.
You say purgatory is where most Catholics go immediately after death (unless they are headed to hell).
If the verses you post are speaking of an event that happens after the resurrection they are not evidence of something that happens right after death.

No

I think you’re quoting ME {PJM] here,

What I said was; or meant to is that PURGATORY is a creation of God’s Merciful Love and Desire that as MANY as possible {MEANING EVERYONE] be saved.1st Tim. 2:4

AND that ALL souls that die without ANY unconfessed; or Unforgiven MORTAL sin {1 Jn 5:16-178}, are granted heavenly access ONLY after their souls have been perfected {all DEBT after their sins have been REPAID in full}

Purgatory is NOT an exclusive domain of Catholics; all though, because we ARE the One true faith and Church established by Christ; and Protestant theories of salvation date back ONLY to the Reformation, and are NOT nearly as assured, as is taught; Purgatory likely does hold more Catholics.

God Bless you,
PJM

 

[PJM]

For us, the “saints”, there will be 1000 years when we will “reign” with Jesus in His kingdom.

SORRY

BUT this ONLY means a large number:

GOOGLE

the meaning of NUMBERS in the bible

God Bless you,

PJM

 

[PJM]

Since Catholic teaching is that the consecrated bread and the consecrated wine both consist of the “body, blood, soul, and divinity” of Christ, the Catholic Church teaches that receiving either (and also both) is sufficient for Communion. And I correct so far?

John 6:54, 55 states: Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

My question is this: If Christ’s blood is found in the consecrated bread, then wouldn’t the recipient who receives only the bread be eating the blood, instead of drinking it? Same question for the consecrated wine: wouldn’t the recipient who receives only the wine be drinking Christ’s body, instead of eating it? Thanks in advance.

THANKS for asking:thumbsup:

The sort answer is** YES!** Here’s why:

**The **Eucharist {a word meaning thanksgiving}, also called Holy Communion is the “Sum & the Summit” of Catholic beliefs, because it is literally Jesus Himself

We must never forget or make light of the fact that Eucharist is both a Miracle {actually it;s DUAL-Miracles} as well as a Mystery.

It is NOT comprehensible by ANY level of human intellect or thought-comprehension. It is rather the foundation for the Faith of Jesus Christ Himself. True FAITH can ONLY be granted by the Holy Spirit.

Eucharist is:

FROM God the Father

OF God the Son

BY God the Holy Spirit

The “dual-miracles” are is sequence:

FIRST at the very Instant of Consecration the priest {male gender] is actually transformed into an “alter-Christi” {another Christ}

It is this 41st miracle that makes possible the second miracle: the Transubstantiation of what an instant ago was mere bread; mere wine; into the a 'BODY, BLOOD, SOUL & DIVINITY of Jesus Himself in His SACRAMENTAL & now GLORIFIED Risen Body.

**Mt 26:26-28
Mk 17:22-24
Lk. 22: 17-20
Jn 6: 47-57
Paul 1st Cor. 11:23-30

EACH testify to this TRUTH**

There can be AND there is NO GREATER reason to be a Informed and practicing Catholic than this opportunity to as St John expresses so well:

John 6:47-57

"[Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. [48] I am the bread of life. [49] Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. [50] This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die.

I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world. [53] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

{QUOTE]{DOUAY EXPLANATION} Eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood: To receive the body and blood of Christ, is a divine precept, insinuated in this text; which the faithful fulfil, though they receive but in one kind; because in one kind they receive both body and blood, which cannot be separated from each other. Hence, life eternal is here promised to the worthy receiving, though but in one kind. Ver. 52. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh for the life of the world. Ver. He that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. Ver. 59. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.[56] For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.]

A third Miracle is that is evey unit, evey piece, every drop the ENTIRE Jeus ; OUR God is truly present:thumbsup:

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[Kliska]

Question; watching Chief Justice Scalia’s funeral Mass; what is in the bowls brought to the priest (Father Scalia) by (it looked like) family members? The bowls were taken to the altar.