Do you have questions about Catholic beliefs & Practices

[rcwitness]

Sorry I haven’t been able to correspond to all these verses.

As for this passage, yes no one can actually “pay the debt of sin”. That why Jesus said, “until you change your hearts”. This is the purpose of Purgatory. That is, full remorse and contrition of sins. In this life, we act on this through faith (which is confession to the Lord and His Church whom He is one with). In the next life, it is different, because we will not see by faith, but the face of God!

This judgment of God on believers who have not turned from their sins (in a venal manner) is likened to a fire, prison, and a beating in Scripture.

Sorry, to be fair I must correct my mis-quote.

Matthew 18

And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers,*till he should pay all his debt.35So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.

 

[blanchardman]

So, what about Christians who have NOT repented of sins after their Baptism, yet these sins did not lead to death, but only harm to themselves and the body?

They go to heaven. I know this is not what the Catholic religion teaches but it is what the bible teaches.

 

[blanchardman]

Sorry, to be fair I must correct my mis-quote.

Matthew 18

And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers,*till he should pay all his debt.35So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.

The point I was trying to make is that the debtor can not get out of his prison through his " suffering" but the soul in purgatory can. The point of this passage is the need to forgive. It should be part of our nature.

 

[rcwitness]

They go to heaven. I know this is not what the Catholic religion teaches but it is what the bible teaches.

No, blanchardman, we believe they go to heaven (who have no mortal sin). Yet it is through Purgatory their sins are forgiven. Not on account of their suffering, but never the less through the inevitable suffering of this conviction. This is painful to experience. And in this life it is the Holy Spirit who convicts, while in the next, it is the “fire” of God. They are the same, but we will know Him fully, and will only be able to have great sorrow for our failures, yet joy in His grace.

 

[spedteacherita]

Originally Posted by rcwitness
So, what about Christians who have NOT repented of sins after their Baptism, yet these sins did not lead to death, but only harm to themselves and the body?

They go to heaven. I know this is not what the Catholic religion teaches but it is what the bible teaches.

Hi, Blanchardman,

Once we’ve been baptized we still have to continue to repent of our sins, is this not what you believe? I was baptized in January of 1978 and even though I received grace through my baptism I still must daily repent of my sins because that would mean that I believed in OSAS. I just wanted to clarify with you about your answer…
Blessings!

Rita

 

[blanchardman]

Originally Posted by rcwitness
So, what about Christians who have NOT repented of sins after their Baptism, yet these sins did not lead to death, but only harm to themselves and the body?

Hi, Blanchardman,

Once we’ve been baptized we still have to continue to repent of our sins, is this not what you believe? I was baptized in January of 1978 and even though I received grace through my baptism I still must daily repent of my sins because that would mean that I believed in OSAS. I just wanted to clarify with you about your answer…
Blessings!

Rita

I guess I should have said “They go directly to heaven”.
I do not know what OSAS is.

 

[rcwitness]

I guess I should have said “They go directly to heaven”.
I do not know what OSAS is.

Once Saved, Always Saved

What should be distinguished here is venal and mortal sin.

1 John 5

If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.17All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

Purgatory deals with sin which was not mortal, yet not turned from in heart and deed.

 

[blanchardman]

Once Saved, Always Saved

What should be distinguished here is venal and mortal sin.

1 John 5

If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.17All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

Purgatory deals with sin which was not mortal, yet not turned from in heart and deed.

OSAS: Rev 3:5 tells us that it is possible for Jesus to remove pur name from the book of life. This is clear proof that we can loose our salvation.

1John 5:16 While it does separate “sins unto death” from those that are not the important point is that if we are it we should pray for that person. It says that if we do the sin will be forgiven. I think it implies that we should do so immediately.

 

[PJM]

Interesting, so they offer mass daily. Does this include some of them being a part of a mass offered by another priest or do they always have to be the one actually offering the mass personally?

They can {and often do} Con-Celebrate. When a Bishop or Cardinal is present this is the NORM

Thanks for asking,

Patrick

 

[PJM]

I guess I should have said “They go directly to heaven”.
I do not know what OSAS is.

O = ONCE
S= SAVED
A= Always
S- SAVED:thumbsup:

 

[PJM]

Thank you for this opportunity. Why do Catholics pray “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” when there are no Bible verses (that I know of) that provide such direction?

Several Bible verses direct us to pray in the name of the Son only.

John 14:13 (KJV) Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do…
John 14:14 (KJV) If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
John 16:24 (KJV) Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
John 15:16 (KJV) …that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Colossians 3:17 (KJV) And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Of course, Jesus declared that baptism should be in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Matthew 28:19 (KJV) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

However, it seems to me a stretch to apply the direction for baptism to that of thanking and petitioning God If that is indeed what is happening. Thanks in advance,

BECAUSE IN PRAYING TO “THE SON” ONE IS PRAYING TO THE BLESSED TRINITY OF FATHER, SON, & HOLY SPIRIT.

God Is ONE:
One Divine Nature with 3 distinct “persons”

Matthew 3: 13-17

". [13] Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to the Jordan, unto John, to be baptized by him. [14] But John stayed him, saying: I ought to be baptized by thee, and comest thou to me? [15] And Jesus answering, said to him: Suffer it {tolerate it} to be so now. For so it becometh us to fulfill all justice. Then he suffered him.

[16] And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water:{God the SON] and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove,{God the Holy Spirit} and coming upon him. [17] And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.{& God the Father}
AMEN!

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[blanchardman]

A few final footnotes on my purgatory comments.

On 2 Maccabees: The footnote in the NAB concur with my point that Judas did not believe in purgatory.

On 1Corinthians 3:13 again the NAB concurs. “The day” is "the great day of Yahweh, the day of judgment.

On 1Corinthians 3:15 it says it " has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this.

And Matthew18:23-35
Verse 34 the NAB day the debt is “unplayable” and “the punishment will be endless”
Verse 35 it says " The Father’s forgiveness, already given, will be withdrawn at the final judgment for those who have not imitated his forgiveness by their own."

My source can be found here.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PVR.HTM

 

[Abu]

See the reality of truth by Tim Staples re Purgatory at:
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/is-purgatory-in-the-bible

 

[blanchardman]

See the reality of truth by Tim Staples re Purgatory at:
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/is-purgatory-in-the-bible

Correcting a typo: in my earlier post (#662) it should have read " payable" not “playable”
Tim Staples uses 2 Maccabees and 1 Cor as his primary bible references. Both passages point to the judgement after the general resurrection.I posted the link so you can read it for yourself. You can also find these footnotes on the BibleGateway site.

 

[Abu]

1. On the reality of Purgatory none other than **the Confraternity-Douay Version, 1953, with an Imprimatur from Cardinal Spellman comments **on 2 Mac 46: “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead:
   **“a clear proof of the practice of praying for the dead under the old law, which was then strictly observed by the Jews, and consequently could not be introduced at that time by Judas, their chief and high priest, if it had not been always their custom.”**My emphasis].
2. In* A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture*, Dom Bernard Orchard, M.A., General Editor, 1953 comments on 2 Mac 43-46:
   “its dogmatic importance is considerable, testifying as it does to a clear-cut and confident belief in personal immortality and in the value of intercessory prayer for the dead. The force of the words is strengthened rather than weakened by the objection that ‘such an idea is unparalleled in Jewish literature.’……The gesture of Judas would of course become widely known, and would serve to deepen and strengthen the faith that it yet presupposed.”
3. In the NAB (Confraternity of Christian Doctrine), 1989-1990 edition, the commentary on 2 Mac 42-46:
   “This is the earliest statement of the doctrine that prayers (v 42) and sacrifices (v 43) for the dead are beneficial…. Judas believed in the resurrection of the just….His belief was similar to, but not quite the same as the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.”

 

[rcwitness]

haydock1859.tripod.com/id164.html

Ver. 12-15… **Divers of the ancient fathers, as well as later interpreters, from these words, prove the Catholic doctrine of a purgatory, that is, that many Christians, who die guilty, not of heinous or mortal sins, but of lesser, and what are called venial sins, or to whom a temporal punishment for the sins they have committed, still remains due, before they can be admitted to arewardin heaven, (into which nothingdefiledorunclean can enter) must suffer some punishments for a time, in some place, which is called Purgatory, and in such a manner, as is agreeable to the divine justice, before their reward in heaven. These words of the apostle, the Latin Fathers in the Council of Florence[1] brought against the Greeks to prove purgatory, to which the Greeks (who did not deny a purgatory, or a third place, where souls guilty of lesser sins were to suffer for a time) made answer, that these words of St. Paul were expounded by St. Chrysostom and some of their Greek Fathers (which is true) of the wicked in hell, who are said tobe saved by fire,inasmuch as they always subsist and continue in those flames, and are not destroyed by them: but this interpretation, as the Latin bishops replied, is not agreeable to the style of the holy Scriptures, in which,*to be saved,both in the Greek and Latin, is expressed the salvation and happiness of souls in heaven. It may not be amiss to take notice that the Greeks, before they met with the Latins at Ferrara, of Florence, did not deny the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. They admitted a third place, where souls guilty of lesser sins, suffered for a time, till cleansed from such sins: they allowed that the souls there detained from the vision of God, might be assisted by the prayers of the faithful: they called this purgatory a place ofdarkness,ofsorrow,ofpunishments,andpains,but they did not allow there a true and material fire, which the Council did not judge necessary to decide and define against them, as appears in the definition of the Council. (Conc. Labb tom. xiii. p. 515.) (Witham) — The fire of which St. Paul here speaks, is the fire of purgatory, according to the Fathers, and all Catholic divines. (Calmet) — St. Augustine, expounding Psalm xxxvii. ver. 1., gives the proper distinction between this fire of purgatory and that of hell: both are punishments, one temporary, the other eternal; the latter to punish us in God’s justice, the former to amend us in his mercy.

Sorry for the large cut and paste. I tried to select the significant section.

 

[blanchardman]

1. On the reality of Purgatory none other than **the Confraternity-Douay Version, 1953, with an Imprimatur from Cardinal Spellman comments **on 2 Mac 46: “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead:
   **“a clear proof of the practice of praying for the dead under the old law, which was then strictly observed by the Jews, and consequently could not be introduced at that time by Judas, their chief and high priest, if it had not been always their custom.”**My emphasis].
2. In* A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture*, Dom Bernard Orchard, M.A., General Editor, 1953 comments on 2 Mac 43-46:
   “its dogmatic importance is considerable, testifying as it does to a clear-cut and confident belief in personal immortality and in the value of intercessory prayer for the dead. The force of the words is strengthened rather than weakened by the objection that ‘such an idea is unparalleled in Jewish literature.’……The gesture of Judas would of course become widely known, and would serve to deepen and strengthen the faith that it yet presupposed.”
3. In the NAB (Confraternity of Christian Doctrine), 1989-1990 edition, the commentary on 2 Mac 42-46:
   “This is the earliest statement of the doctrine that prayers (v 42) and sacrifices (v 43) for the dead are beneficial…. Judas believed in the resurrection of the just….His belief was similar to, but not quite the same as the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.”

I have no objections to praying for the dead. The reason is the resurrection.
In verse 44 we read.
“for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.”
The prayers and offerings collected by Judas M were meant to benefit his men after they were resurrected not in the time between death and resurrection.

 

[rcwitness]

I have no objections to praying for the dead. The reason is the resurrection.
In verse 44 we read.
“for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.”
The prayers and offerings collected by Judas M were meant to benefit his men after they were resurrected not in the time between death and resurrection.

I guess I have been trying to suggest that the doctrine of Purgatory does not tell us whether it comes before or after bodily resurrection. We pray now, yes, but we are praying to God, who is in eternity for the souls in Purgatory. It’s not as though they are experiencing time relevant to us.

I can appreciate your concern about this. I hope you don’t think I am just giving a knee jerk reaction to your objection.

 

[blanchardman]

I guess I have been trying to suggest that the doctrine of Purgatory does not tell us whether it comes before or after bodily resurrection. We pray now, yes, but we are praying to God, who is in eternity for the souls in Purgatory. It’s not as though they are experiencing time relevant to us.

I can appreciate your concern about this. I hope you don’t think I am just giving a knee jerk reaction to your objection.

I see 1 Cor 3:11-15 as a description of the baptism in fire spoken of in Math 3:11. In fact my copy of the NAB (1972,1973 edition) cross references 1 Cor 3:11-15 to Math 3:11.
This is a pro Catholic site and I expected push back.I have not been offended by anyone’s comments and I hope I have not offended.

 

[PJM]

1. On the reality of Purgatory none other than **the Confraternity-Douay Version, 1953, with an Imprimatur from Cardinal Spellman comments **on 2 Mac 46: “It is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead:
   **“a clear proof of the practice of praying for the dead under the old law, which was then strictly observed by the Jews, and consequently could not be introduced at that time by Judas, their chief and high priest, if it had not been always their custom.”**My emphasis].
2. In* A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture*, Dom Bernard Orchard, M.A., General Editor, 1953 comments on 2 Mac 43-46:
   “its dogmatic importance is considerable, testifying as it does to a clear-cut and confident belief in personal immortality and in the value of intercessory prayer for the dead. The force of the words is strengthened rather than weakened by the objection that ‘such an idea is unparalleled in Jewish literature.’……The gesture of Judas would of course become widely known, and would serve to deepen and strengthen the faith that it yet presupposed.”
3. In the NAB (Confraternity of Christian Doctrine), 1989-1990 edition, the commentary on 2 Mac 42-46:
   “This is the earliest statement of the doctrine that prayers (v 42) and sacrifices (v 43) for the dead are beneficial…. Judas believed in the resurrection of the just….His belief was similar to, but not quite the same as the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.”

GREAT POINT my friend