Do you have to be Catholic to be Saved?

[Renton405]

The CCC does state that those outside the church who still believe in Christ can still be saved… But they are not in FULL communion with Christ…Another reason why they might be saved is because they are ignorant of the churches true teachings…so yes protestants can be saved

 

[Renton405]

That the Catholic Church, as we know it today wasn’t established until 280 years after Jesus, and that Jesus established the church that aknowledges he is the Son of God…That I belong to the Church of Christ through believing in Jesus.

Then Why did St. Ignatius talk about the Catholic Church in the first Century 200 years before constantine?? why did he tell us the importance of always staying with the bishop and never disconnecting from him??

St. Clement of Rome existed even before the 1st Century! and he was a very Catholic Follower…

Here are 3 people to read about… Clement of Rome, Polycarp and St. Ignatius… All 3 existed in the 1st Century and were born around i think 50-60AD… they were all friends and diciples of the apostles… Espesially John, Peter and Paul…St. Ireaneus also talks about the Catholic Church around 120-160AD, which you shold read…

But in reality the CC was started when Matthew 16 was declared…

 

[Abbi]

My mother explained Matthew 16:18 like this: that Jesus was building the church not upon Peter, but upon what Peter said in reply to Jesus when he was asked: “Who do you say I am?” and in verse 16 Peter replies saying: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

This makes so much more sense to me! Is that really the verse you base the pope having authority on??! - I in no way want to pick an argument, heck, I’m trying to say that we are all one church - but are you serious? Maybe someone just needs to explain it to me properly. I don’t think I’ll be agreeing any time soon, but surely you have something else biblical to back it up? If the authority of the pope rests upon the interpretation from that one verse, then its pretty shaky grounds isn’t it?

In reply to Renton405, if you look at this: justforcatholics.org/a71.htm, in Christian theology the word “catholic” describes the entire church of Jesus Christ. No denomination or local assembly is perfect in doctrine or practice. The reality is that the church, God’s family, is found in all the local assemblies of Christians that believe in Him, obey His Word and love the brethren.

woot!


This is definately becoming clear.

 

[JustinApologist]

My mother explained Matthew 16:18 like this: that Jesus was building the church not upon Peter, but upon what Peter said in reply to Jesus when he was asked: “Who do you say I am?” and in verse 16 Peter replies saying: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

This makes so much more sense to me! Is that really the verse you base the pope having authority on??! - I in no way want to pick an argument, heck, I’m trying to say that we are all one church - but are you serious? Maybe someone just needs to explain it to me properly. I don’t think I’ll be agreeing any time soon, but surely you have something else biblical to back it up? If the authority of the pope rests upon the interpretation from that one verse, then its pretty shaky grounds isn’t it?

In reply to Renton405, if you look at this: justforcatholics.org/a71.htm, in Christian theology the word “catholic” describes the entire church of Jesus Christ. No denomination or local assembly is perfect in doctrine or practice. The reality is that the church, God’s family, is found in all the local assemblies of Christians that believe in Him, obey His Word and love the brethren.

woot!


This is definately becoming clear.

Read this I found this in newadvent.org by an Epistle by Saint Ignatius of Antioch. He first called the Christian Church Catholic, Chapter 8. According to Scholars, St. Ignatius is the disciple of St. John the Apostle.

He clearly said this, “Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm

The CC was not created in 200 AD. It was founded in Pentecost and its founder is Jesus Christ. Christian History disproves your claims.

 

[JustinApologist]

My mother explained Matthew 16:18 like this: that Jesus was building the church not upon Peter, but upon what Peter said in reply to Jesus when he was asked: “Who do you say I am?” and in verse 16 Peter replies saying: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

This makes so much more sense to me! Is that really the verse you base the pope having authority on??! - I in no way want to pick an argument, heck, I’m trying to say that we are all one church - but are you serious? Maybe someone just needs to explain it to me properly. I don’t think I’ll be agreeing any time soon, but surely you have something else biblical to back it up? If the authority of the pope rests upon the interpretation from that one verse, then its pretty shaky grounds isn’t it?

In reply to Renton405, if you look at this: justforcatholics.org/a71.htm, in Christian theology the word “catholic” describes the entire church of Jesus Christ. No denomination or local assembly is perfect in doctrine or practice. The reality is that the church, God’s family, is found in all the local assemblies of Christians that believe in Him, obey His Word and love the brethren.

woot!


This is definately becoming clear.

JustforCatholic.org is an Anti-Catholic website founded by an Ex-Catholics. Most the web user’s comments about the Catholic Church are misconceptions or misunderstandings.

 

[nerfherder]

The CCC does state that those outside the church who still believe in Christ can still be saved… But they are not in FULL communion with Christ…Another reason why they might be saved is because they are ignorant of the churches true teachings…so yes protestants can be saved

That is incorrect: it is not that they are ignorant of the ‘Church’s true teaching’ but of the truth of the Scriptures.

 

[nerfherder]

Dear Abbi,

I wonder if you are 17, or if you are having your posts edited by Mum and Dad? I am an educator, and perhaps I should know that NZ has a great education system. Or perhaps you have learned your catechism in school. You are very knowledgeable and articulate. Congratulations on coming here with your questions.

You are curious about God and life and afterlife, and you want an answer that is helpful to you. You also want to know the truth. You are right, also, to be curious about people who are adamant that they are the only ones who know the truth: this has led to a great deal of trouble throughout the world over the centuries.

I have suggested in an earlier post that you must make up your own mind, that the Catholic Church is not the only church of faith, that there are many other non-Christian faiths, that others who are not Christian are children of God too.

Much of what you are reading here is from good upstanding Catholics who believe their faith is so pure and true that it is the only one. That is a good thing for many people!

I hope to join the Catholic Church later this year. BUT I would never tell anyone else they do not have the correct faith, or belong to the wrong church, or that mine is the only church that knows the truth, or that they will go to hell as the priest has told you.

I think you are being given far more information on the Forum than you need.

Your first question was quite simple: will I go to hell if I am not Catholic? Did the priest speak truly?

The answer - and I have been questing too - as far as I can know (this is a matter of faith and experience) is that I will not go to hell if I am not a Catholic. All of God’s children are in his Love; He is compassionate; Christ demonstrated God’s love for all kinds of people.

And no one on this earth can know the final truth, for it is a hidden mystery (and that is the word used by the Catholic Church).

Yes, explore the Catholic Church if you wish; explore other protestant denominations; explore other religions and know about Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists. This is the way to become a mature spiritual adult, not blindly following what you are told or what you were born into. Learn and think, as you are doing now.

And know that you have the freedom, granted by God, to make your own decision. And that whatever decision you take, if it is for good, will not lead you into hell.

By the way, you might - for your next set of questions - think about what heaven and hell are. How do you think about them in your mind?

Love from Carol
Pretoria, South Africa

 

[Abbi]

To nerfherder:
Haha, you make me out to be intelligent for my age, thanks. Yes I am 17, and no none of this has been edited by my parents. I’m actually expected to be dux of my highschool this year - perhaps that might be why I seem to be relatively intelligent? . On a spiritual level people seem to think I have the gift of discernment - I don’t know if this is true or not, but tis pretty cool. I can only thank God for my gifts

I actually hadn’t heard of the catechism at all until I began this thread, but maybe it was in our Religious Education curriculum somewhere.

Um… Okay. I see heaven as a place with no suffering and no death, and hell as a place where you definately don’t want to be. That’s it really - I know about the tradition images of heaven and hell, but I don’t really think they’d be accurate. The book of Revelation would probably be the only place that I seriously see as any kind of accurate description of heaven - and it looked like the dude had a problem finding words in his vocabulary to describe it. I don’t think we can imagine Heaven - or Hell for that matter. They’re somewhere in another dimension.

Sooooo what has this got to do with my next questions?

 

[nerfherder]

To nerfherder:
Haha, you make me out to be intelligent for my age, thanks. Yes I am 17, and no none of this has been edited by my parents. I’m actually expected to be dux of my highschool this year - perhaps that might be why I seem to be relatively intelligent? . On a spiritual level people seem to think I have the gift of discernment - I don’t know if this is true or not, but tis pretty cool. I can only thank God for my gifts

I actually hadn’t heard of the catechism at all until I began this thread, but maybe it was in our Religious Education curriculum somewhere.

Um… Okay. I see heaven as a place with no suffering and no death, and hell as a place where you definately don’t want to be. That’s it really - I know about the tradition images of heaven and hell, but I don’t really think they’d be accurate. The book of Revelation would probably be the only place that I seriously see as any kind of accurate description of heaven - and it looked like the dude had a problem finding words in his vocabulary to describe it. I don’t think we can imagine Heaven - or Hell for that matter. They’re somewhere in another dimension.

Sooooo what has this got to do with my next questions?

Congrats. You are thankfully articulate like our sons. It is a blessing devoutly to be wished for.

You did not comment on my post, about making your own decisions, without being influenced by others who are sternly rooted in their own beliefs - to which they may have come with great trial. I assume you will make your own voyage of discovery - in Hindu it is called sanyassi, and that is what I am doing right now.

The concept of heaven and hell has nothing to do with your next questions. It was just that your idea of God and organised religion may be to an extent determined by the way you perceive heaven and hell. If I see the Hubble space telescope photos of the universe on the Internet, any conventional concept of God, creation, heaven and hell are knocked sideways - if one is perceptive enough.

You will also have to explore the ideas of creation myths (Genesis), grace, informed conscience, the scriptures and their history, the nature, personality, mission and suffering of Christ as well as his resurrection and ascension. Lots to think about! Keep you going for a lifetime. Good luck.

Love from Carol

 

[Ignatius]

Hi!
My name is Abbi, and I am 17 years old, I live in New Zealand and have been brought up as a protestant christian - having attended a baptist church ever since I can remember. I am a firm believer in Jesus Christ, and have accepted Him as my saviour. I am also in my last year at a Catholic school, and have been exposed to obvious differences between Catholics and Protestants, but still believing that despite these differences, as long as we believe in Jesus and choose to live our life for Him, we will be written in the Book of Life.

However today I struck a problem. We have a new priest at our school, and he declared that “if you are not catholic, then you are going to hell.”

Please do not be offended, and I hate to question your veracity, brother; but this is not the teaching of the Church and I find it highly unlikely that any such thing occurred.

God bless.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Pax et Caritas:

The following is an infallible dogmatic statement given by a Pope…

So, what does all this mean? In my opinion, it means that God has used this priest to make you aware of something you did not suspect (that the Catholic Church is indeed the Church our Lord founded and necessary for salvation), and is now He is calling you, and drawing you, into His one true Church “outside of which there is no salvation”.

I find it very interesting that you and other were so scandalized when I simply quoted an infallible dogma of the faith. All I did was state what the Church teaches. In fact, I even allowed for the exception to the rule, yet nevertheless, people were “shocked” that I would say there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. Before I continue, I would ask those who had a problem with what I wrote read the following words of Pope Gregory XVI:

Pope Gregory XVI, “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life… You know how zealously Our predecessors taught that article of faith which these dare to deny, namely the necessity of the Catholic faith and of unity for salvation… Omitting other appropriate passages which are almost numberless in the writings of the Fathers, We shall praise St. Gregory the Great who expressly testifies that THIS IS INDEED THE TEACHING OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. He says: ‘The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her and asserts that all who are outside of her will not be saved.’ Official acts of the Church proclaim the same dogma. Thus, in the decree on faith which Innocent III published with the synod of Lateran IV, these things are written: ‘There is one universal Church of all the faithful outside of which no one is saved.’ Finally the same dogma is also expressly mentioned in the profession of faith proposed by the Apostolic See, not only that which all Latin churches use, but also that which… other Eastern Catholics use. We did not mention these selected testimonies because We thought you were ignorant of that article of faith and in need of Our instruction. Far be it from Us to have such an absurd and insulting suspicion about you. But We are so concerned about this serious and well known dogma, which has been attacked with such remarkable audacity, that We could not restrain Our pen from reinforcing this truth with many testimonies.”

The reason so many people today are shocked to read such clear words is because they have had their faith watered down, and have become indifferent. This is the result of the last 40 years of teaching, whereby all of the empnasis has been placed in the exception, to the exclusion of the rule.

The rule (truth) is that there is no salvation outside of the Church. The exception is that it may be possible for a person who is not a visible member of the Catholic Church to be saved… but this is the exception. But after 40 years of the emphasis being placed on the exception, most people are now shocked when they hear the rule. Yet the rule is what we are required to believe.

continue

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

continuation

And regarding “charitas”, it is never uncharitable to tell someone the truth. But it is very uncharitable to withhold the truth from a person out of human resect or from a misguided fear of offending them.

I’ll end with a few more quotes. Let these be a test of your faith. If these shock you, it means that you have had your faith watered down. In other words, you have been far more influenced by liberalism than you ever imagined.

Pope Eugene IV, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity" (Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439).

St. Fulgence, “Hold most firmly and never doubt in the least that not only all the pagans but also all the Jews and all the heretics and schismatics who end this present life outside the Catholic Church are about to go into the eternal fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels” (The Rule of Faith, 526 A.D.: )

St. Alphonsus: “See also the special love which God has shown you in bringing you into life in a Christian country, and in the bosom of the Catholic or true Church. How many are born among the pagans, among the Jews, among the Mohometans and heretics, and all are lost.” (Sermons of St. Alphonsus Liguori, Tan Books, 1982, p. 219.)

I could include dozens of more quotes from Popes and doctors of the Church that say the same thing. Those who have a problem with these quotes need to reflect seriously on why, always remembering that developement of doctrine is quite different than “evolution of doctrine” (which was condemned by Pius X as an error of the modernists).

Doctrines develope when the teaching is more clearly understood, whereas evolution of doctrine results in a doctrine changing from one meaning to another.

The following is a small portion of the anti-modernist oath which Pope St. Pius X commanded that all priests take. He required that all clergy take this oath in order to prevent what we have today. Interestingly, Paul VI did away with the requirement of taking this oath.

The oath against modernism: Fourthly, I sincerely hold that the doctrine of faith was handed down to us from the apostles through the orthodox Fathers in exactly the same meaning and always in the same purport. Therefore, I entirely reject the heretical’ misrepresentation that dogmas evolve and change from one meaning to another different from the one which the Church held previously. I also condemn every error according to which, in place of the divine deposit which has been given to the spouse of Christ to be carefully guarded by her, there is put a philosophical figment or product of a human conscience that has gradually been developed by human effort and will continue to develop indefinitely". papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10moath.htm

 

[Nino]

Hi!
My name is Abbi, and I am 17 years old, I live in New Zealand and have been brought up as a protestant christian - having attended a baptist church ever since I can remember. I am a firm believer in Jesus Christ, and have accepted Him as my saviour. I am also in my last year at a Catholic school, and have been exposed to obvious differences between Catholics and Protestants, but still believing that despite these differences, as long as we believe in Jesus and choose to live our life for Him, we will be written in the Book of Life.

However today I struck a problem. We have a new priest at our school, and he declared that “if you are not catholic, then you are going to hell.” I was also hesitant to question what grounds he stood on - after all, he is a priest! But I have plenty of scripture references that are contradictory to his statement - it seems that he is contradicting the Bible itself, as it says in John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.” - not that you have to belong to a particular type of church. The idea seems absurd.

Is this idea consistent with the teachings of the catholic church?

If you would be able to get back to me it would be much apprieciated.

God bless.

 

[Nino]

on dec.9.1854 Pope Pius IX added this allocution…'those who are ignornant of the true religion,if that iignorance is invincible,will not be held guilty in the matter in the eyes of the Lord" this is quoting St.Thomas Acquinas of course also…salvation is a gift of God hence it is not received by everybody…so please dont be deceived by those ‘stand patters’ it is they who hurt the Church more then many others for they make the RCC sound so un-tolerant and reasonable…Nino

 

[Good_Fella]

The Catholic Church teaches that we must be in a state of sanctifying
grace and penitent when we die in order to get to heaven. Some Protestant
groups reject the idea that repentance is required for us to be saved for
it presupposes a behavioral change which amounts to justification partially by
works. This belief obviously contradicts the scriptures. St. Peter teaches us
that we are saved by baptism and repentance.

 

[mcs7474]

Is it wrong after reading these posts to really really really really dislike luther and the reformers for brainwashing generations upon generations of people. I mean I can take fault in helping becuase I can be a bad model for the catholic faith, but man this is ridiculous.

 

[Ahimsa]

Interesting website:

[ “If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can, such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation.”

The Catechism of St. Pope Pius X (1910)](Passages from The Catechism of Saint Pope Pius X @ ELCore.Net)

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi!
My name is Abbi, and I am 17 years old, I live in New Zealand and have been brought up as a protestant christian - having attended a baptist church ever since I can remember. I am a firm believer in Jesus Christ, and have accepted Him as my saviour. I am also in my last year at a Catholic school, and have been exposed to obvious differences between Catholics and Protestants, but still believing that despite these differences, as long as we believe in Jesus and choose to live our life for Him, we will be written in the Book of Life.

However today I struck a problem. We have a new priest at our school, and he declared that “if you are not catholic, then you are going to hell.” I was also hesitant to question what grounds he stood on - after all, he is a priest! But I have plenty of scripture references that are contradictory to his statement - it seems that he is contradicting the Bible itself, as it says in John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.” - not that you have to belong to a particular type of church. The idea seems absurd.

Is this idea consistent with the teachings of the catholic church?

If you would be able to get back to me it would be much apprieciated.

God bless.

One must be a member of the Body of Christ, and that Body is the Catholic Church. However, all of those who believe in Christ as you do are connected to the Catholic Church even if they do not realize it. It is an imperfect communion, but a real one, nonetheless.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Abbi]

Hey hey!
Ignatius - he did say that, and he has said it before too. Once to the whole school, and once to my class.

nerfherder - I didn’t reply to your post because I didn’t know HOW to reply. I have made a personal decision to be a christian - I did 3 years ago, when I was baptised. I do intend to look into other religions, however more as in discovering why I am a christian - not a muslim or jew etc. Other religions are interesting, but personally I think God is big enough for everyone and anyone - I think they would find truth and love in Jesus, rather than Allah etc. Or do you believe they’re all one God? - that there are different sides to him etc? Grace, informed conscience, the scriptures and their history, the nature, personality, mission and suffering of Christ as well as his resurrection and ascension - yes I know! and much much more , its sure to be exciting.

Pax et Caritas: Okay, here is the thing, I’m not Catholic, so on a personal leveI, I don’t really think these people have much to do with anything. I’m sure they were wonderful people, but they are still people - and capable of making mistakes. I would rather look at the inspired word of God, the Bible - surely that is a set guide for life, ready to go? And as far as I can see, there is nothing in it that says “hey you have to be Catholic.” The idea that you have to be Catholic is becoming more and more…sedrftyhufdert56yuh, if you get what I mean - After all, Jesus didn’t just die for Catholics, he died for the WORLD - so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. No? If you’re just answering what the Catholic Church teaches, then thanks. There seems to be a lot of mixed opinions here.

JustinApologist: “The CC was not created in 200 AD. It was founded in Pentecost and its founder is Jesus Christ. Christian History disproves your claims.” As I understand it, it was illegal to be a christian until Constantine. Besides, even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus, or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship / adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in Heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture. I don’t mean to offend anyone, but that is the way I see it :S

Good Fella: My church most definately teaches repentance. How else can you truely apprieciate what Jesus died for?

 

[Good_Fella]

Abbi, your understanding of Church history and Catholicism and the Bible is inaccurate.
I recommend that you read ‘One Holy Catholic and Apostolic: The Early Church Was the
Catholic Church’ by Kenneth D Whitehead and ‘The Church on Earth’ by Ronald A Knox.

“To be deep in history is to be Catholic.”

Cardinal John H Newman

Abbi, I can understand why Protestants cannot accept most essential Catholic doctrines.
The differing Protestant denominations and sects cannot even agree among themselves
what is to be essential or non-essential doctrines. A Lutheran would be forbidden to pastor
the Baptist church while a Baptist would in turn be forbidden to pastor a Methodist church
because of differing views on baptism. Each denomination claims to have “interpreted” the
bible correctly to justify its doctrines. But can any group be absolutely sure that it is
right? By what authority does each group make its claim? Appealing to the bible alone
is insufficient, for it does not tell us which teachings are essential or non-essential. The bottom
line is that all Protestant groups make themselves out to be their own authority by individual
interpretations. Protestantism has no direct link with the apostles and the Church founded by
Christ himself and handed on to them and their legitimate successors. As a result,
Protestantism is not guided by the Holy Spirit in its judgments on what is to be essential
doctrines. If the Advocate were actually present in Protestantism, it would be “One” as the
true “Apostolic” Catholic Church is “One”. I am afraid that when Luther, Calvin, Zwingli,
and a host of other early “reformers” left the Catholic Church, they left the promised
Advocate, the Spirit of truth and helper, behind, leaving all of you spiritual orphans.

The Catholic Church has no divine guarantee of “inspiration”, yet in virtue of Christ’s promise
to Peter and the Apostles, the Holy Spirit does in fact “guide” the judgment of the pope and
the bishops in the formulation of the Church’s doctrines and proclamations of her dogmas.
The ‘charisma’ of papal infallibility with or without the bishops in communion rests on our Lord’s
explicit promise in Holy Scripture and is seen exercised in the life of the Church as portrayed in
the New Testament and made evident in the literature of the early Church. This ‘charism’ did not
die with Peter and the Apostles. It was passed on and has been passed on in the life of the
Catholic Church from generation to generation and from age to age. And so divine providence
protects the Church from formulating false doctrines and promulgating false dogmas.
In Protestantism, since no group can entirely agree on all essential doctrines, it is
obvious that each group is partially wrong somewhere in its teachings. Hence, the
Protestant Faith is essentially wrong having been left an orphan in its separation from the
one true Church. Meanwhile, the Catholic Faith is a unity of essential doctrines.