There is no way to know either way. Then what would you call their improvement in mood afterwards?That’s simply not true. There would be no absolution of sin and that’s that.
Yet we do not really know in the end. I will reference Fr Grochel’s 5th Luminous Mystery discussion again. Even now theologians (no matter what stripe) do not understand the Eucharist, much of it is still a mystery to us. Confession (even more so in this example) is along the same line of theological thinking. In the end we truly do not know.Wrong again. If a person receives Holy Communion knowing it is not open to them in their present state, they profane the Blessed Sacrament by doing so. They also don’t do themselves any favors.
In this day and age it would be difficult to believe that anyone would present themselves for communion without the proper preparation due to abject ignorance. When that actually does happen I would suspect nothing at all happens, but that would be very rare indeed.
You can use that excuse for just about anything we discuss on these forums – in the end we truly do not know.Yet we do not really know in the end. I will reference Fr Grochel’s 5th Luminous Mystery discussion again. Even now theologians (no matter what stripe) do not understand the Eucharist, much of it is still a mystery to us. Confession (even more so in this example) is along the same line of theological thinking. In the end we truly do not know.
Under the current rule set, it probably does not fit the official sacramental definition of Confession, but something still happens with an increase in mood for a non-Catholic. That again theologians can theorize but not truly know. In the end the non-Catholic walked away refreshed with a weight off their back (which is a good thing of course). Nothing has been “profaned” during this, if it truly was, the non-Catholic would walk away unchanged or even worse, yet that rarely (if-ever) happens. What is added is compassion from a much higher level that comes out in what I said is right now an undefined theological idea/thesis.
Yes there is a way to know. They are not prepared to receive the sacrament. Nothing supernatural takes place. They are merely feeling the relief of unburdening themselves to another human.There is no way to know either way. Then what would you call their improvement in mood afterwards?
Even more so, the examples used so far (Baptists, Lutherans) all worship the same historical theological God as Catholics do anyways. Do you really think God splits hairs due to past human schisms?
- In my Encyclical* Ut Unum Sint* I expressed my own appreciation of these norms, which make it possible to provide for the salvation of souls with proper discernment: “It is a source of joy to note that Catholic ministers are able, in certain particular cases, to administer the sacraments of the Eucharist, Penance and Anointing of the Sick to Christians who are not in full communion with the Catholic Church but who greatly desire to receive these sacraments, freely request them and manifest the faith which the Catholic Church professes with regard to these sacraments. Conversely, in specific cases and in particular circumstances, Catholics too can request these same sacraments from ministers of Churches in which these sacraments are valid”.97
These conditions, from which no dispensation can be given, must be carefully respected, even though they deal with specific individual cases, because the denial of one or more truths of the faith regarding these sacraments and, among these, the truth regarding the need of the ministerial priesthood for their validity, renders the person asking improperly disposed to legitimately receiving them. And the opposite is also true: Catholics may not receive communion in those communities which lack a valid sacrament of Orders.98
If a non-Catholic Christian feels a desire for the Sacrament of Penance, I consider that a call from the Holy Spirit to look into communion with the Catholic Church.Look, I know and understand that the Sacraments of Eucharist; Holy Orders; and Confirmation can only be received by a Catholic in good standing for these are Sacraments of the Community after Baptism.
But Baptism does not require you being Catholic; One does not have to be Catholic to receive the Sacrament of Marriage as long as the other partner is Catholic.
My question about Confession is due to the scriptural fact that Jesus and the Apostles forgave sinners even if they were not necessarily their followers. Jesus forgave the sins of anyone who came to him with a humble and contrite heart. Most of these were Jews and it cannot be said that all of them became followers of Christ and his Apostles afterwards, yet He still forgave them their sins. He didn’t say if you follow Me your sins are forgiven nor did He say that you have to become on of My followers for Me to forgive your sins. He just forgave them.
I hope you can see my quaundry on this subject. Also I really haven’t found good sources that say you have to be Catholic to receive the sacrament of confession.
Quite honestly these above arguments can apply to the Sacrament of the Sick as well.
I am not trying to defend a position here just expressing the arguments for that keep popping up and not many arguments against.
The person receiving baptism outside the Church would never have been Catholic.First I would like to say thanks for the long response to the question.
Someone finally hit on this point which I thought of last night as well. This would be true if the recipient is Catholic but not true if the recipient wasn’t. This would seal the answer up to me but it doesn’t quite come out and say that the recipient must be Catholic.
It is pointed out in the other sacraments: Eucharist (must be Catholic); Holy Orders (must be Catholic); Confirmation (must be Catholic); Matrimony (one of the two must be Catholic); Confession (Silent). All of these are spelled out in the Code of Canon Law. Confession it is silent. So to be truthful there is not enough info for or against.
I disagree with this because there should be a “closed” stance on communion for it is easily argued from a theological point that it should be closed.
The stance of the Catholic church is that one must have a humble and contrite heart to be forgiven. A humble and contrite heart is a supernatural state and that state can only be given through the Holy Spirit. A humble and contrite heart is not a feeling it is a condition that the soul is in through the help of the Holy Spirit.
The church has made it clear that if someone receives Baptism outside of the church with the use of water (immersion, sprinkling, or pouring) and the words “In the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” are used then that is a valid Baptism. So one does not have to be Catholic to receive a valid Baptism.
To start off with when one is in the state of mortal sin he is NOT IN FULL COMMUNION with the Church or with God. That is the Sacraments purpose is to primarily reconcile us to God and secondarily reconcile us to the Church.ERose, I think that you have missed the point. In order to parake of the Sacrament of Confession, along with Catholic, you need to also believe that this recourse of mercy was entrusted by Christ to his Church.
When the priest grants absolution, he acts in persona Christi. I’m trying ot remember the formula for absolution, but, correct me if I’m wrong (anyone out there), I believe the words include “through the ministry of the Church” somewhere in there.
Protestants have no such recourse, nor do they believe in any such recourse. Ask them about confession and their reply is “I confess directly to God.” Evidently, the Resurrection account in John’s Gospel doesn’t mean that much to them.
I’m not trying to sound cold, but, baptism in another denominatoin doesn’t mean (even if the correct formula is used) that the person is entitled to the sacraments. He or she needs to be in FULL COMMUNION with the Church.
Whenever someone is Baptised either in the Catholic Church or another denomination that person is being adopted into the Spiritual Body of Christ. That is to the best of my knowledge the teaching of the Church.The person receiving baptism outside the Church would never have been Catholic.
The difference here is that non-Catholics (in the technical sense, that they have not yet been confirmed, although they ARE baptized) DO receive the Sacrament of Penance BEFORE they are confirmed. Protestant Converts come to Confession before Confirmation.
But the point about “reconciliation with the Church” as part of what the sacrament effects means “reconciliation with the Church,” aka The Body of Christ. Belief in the teachings of the Church is part of that package.
That is part of the humble and contrite heart. A humble and contrite heart for you guys who do not know is in the Biblical since an inward knowledge that we have separated ourselves from God and have alienated ourselves from our fellow Christians and the rest of Society as well. Since many mortal sins are also social evils there is truth in that. You are right that we all must understand that mortal sin usually does not just impact just ourselves and our relationship with God but also it impacts our relationship with others as well.In The Sacrament of Reconciliation Catholics are not just confessing their sins in order to be forgiven. They are in essence confessing that their sins not only offend God but are also sins against his CHURCH and the CHURCH community as a whole.
The Sacrament is all inclusive, just as being a Catholic is ( not dunkin donut catholics). It is NOT just a matter of confessing your sins, to have a truly contrite and humble heart ( as you like to keep repeating) you must be humble enough to know that by sinning you are hurting God’s CHURCH. Since The church in question is The Catholic Church then it would mean that you must be a Catholic who understands the true meaning of The Sacraments.
I think you do not understand is that something supernatural has already happened. The person has been given a humble and contrite heart. The Catholic church teaches that one can only receive a humble and contrite heart from the grace of God. Actually one can say that a humble and contrite heart is a grace from God freely received by the person.Yes there is a way to know. They are not prepared to receive the sacrament. Nothing supernatural takes place. They are merely feeling the relief of unburdening themselves to another human.
Keep in mind the Baptist and Lutheran religions actually denigrate the sacrament of penance. Having either belief before entering the confessional would do nothing but more fully underscore the inefficacy of the sacrament for those not prepared to receive it.
The presumption is that a person who has been baptized and confirmed in the Church does assent to the teaching of the Church.Whenever someone is Baptised either in the Catholic Church or another denomination that person is being adopted into the Spiritual Body of Christ. That is to the best of my knowledge the teaching of the Church.
Concerning the idea of teachings of the Church is the full belief in them necessary to receive the sacraments? I believe if you walk into any Catholic church today and ask them their belief in something you will probably get all kind of answers that are not the true teachings of the church.
We see it all the time here in this forum were Catholics do not know or disregard the teachings of the church.
Thanks Fix for that information.I think in very particular circumstances it may be allowed:
ERose, I never said that Christ only forgives those who are Catholic. What I said is that the sacrament is reserved for Catholics becasue they are full members of the Body of Christ in union with Peter’s successors. In order to be Catholic, you must profess what the Church believes, that includes the fact that Christ charged his apostles and their successors with the authority to forgive sins. The apostles’ successors, the bishops, in turn, hand that authority to the priests.To start off with when one is in the state of mortal sin he is NOT IN FULL COMMUNION with the Church or with God. That is the Sacraments purpose is to primarily reconcile us to God and secondarily reconcile us to the Church.
If we start to say that Christ only forgives those that are Catholics we go down a very bumpy road. Also if a Non-Catholic Christian comes before a priest to confess his sins, he is in fact by his very actions recognizing the authority of the Church and the power bestowed on the Priest.
Also it should be pointed out that Eastern Othodox Christians can receive the Sacraments from a Catholic church if there is no Othodox church available to him or her. So the full communion does not stick.
No where does it discuss in the requirements for receiving a confession that one must believe everything that the Church teaches.The presumption is that a person who has been baptized and confirmed in the Church does assent to the teaching of the Church.
A non-Catholic is not in the same position because the presumption is that he is NOT in agreement with the teachings of the Church. If he has no intention of consenting to the articles of the faith, then he is not seeking reconciliation with God, who gives the Church her authority nor with the Church.
Someone who comes to Confession seeking absolution but rejects baptismal regeneration, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the teaching on contracetpion or papal authority is effectively making a bad confession.
ERose, in order to be a practicing Catholic and in order to be able to worthily receive the Sacraments, you must believe and profess what the Catholic Church teaches. What part of that do you not understand?No where does it discuss in the requirements for receiving a confession that one must believe everything that the Church teaches.
Many people here are arguing from the standpoint of total belief in the Churches teachings. You will not find that as a requirement for forgiveness.
Canon 987 addresses the subject of the disposition of the penitent:No where does it discuss in the requirements for receiving a confession that one must believe everything that the Church teaches.
Many people here are arguing from the standpoint of total belief in the Churches teachings. You will not find that as a requirement for forgiveness.
While it may not be “officially” a sacrament, there is some type of spiritual connection in a non-Catholic seeking forgiveness. Again, we can only theorize it and will have as many opinions on it as there are theologians on what to call it. Remember, all non-Catholic Christian religions are based on the same theological historical God (initially caused by some long-ago human schism which is minor in the big picture) as us (even true for Islam). I do not believe that “favorites” are played in the confessing and forgiveness process over a theoretical list of rules in the spiritual frame.ERose, in order to be a practicing Catholic and in order to be able to worthily receive the Sacraments, you must believe and profess what the Catholic Church teaches. What part of that do you not understand?
In order for the Sacrements (and the resulting graces they bring) to bear fruit, you must believe what the Church teaches. You need to believe that Jesus instituted these seven great gifts. Unfortunately, Protestants believe that the Holy Eucharist is merely a symbol. The don’t believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. They certainly do not believe that Christ gave certain men the power to forgive sins in his name. They obviously do not believe Christ’s statement to Peter that “upon this rock” He would build his Church.
The same applies to confession. If you do not believe that Christ gave his authority to the apostles and their successors to forgive sins under the Sacrament of Confession, then what are you doing there in the first place?
Now, as another poster said, it would be a true moment of grace if, for a non-Catholic, they approached the sacrament because they genuinely wanted to convert. Even though they cannot receive sacramental confession, the priest can guide them along the conversion process. But, it can’t be the way you’ve seemed to describe it. The sacraments are only for those who are Catholic.
I would say the definition of “faithful” is so restricted. “Faithful” to the Church is one way to look at it, the other would be “Faithful” to God. “Heresy” in this case also comes down to past divisions in the various human schisms over history. Yet through all the schisms, the definition of God does not change, it is the same historical God in all the other sects. Remember that the human schisms happened over human disagreements over rules and not in a belief in the same historical God.Canon 987 addresses the subject of the disposition of the penitent:
In order that the faithful may receive the saving remedy of the sacrament of penance, they must be so disposed that, repudiating the sins they have committed and having the purpose of amending their lives, they turn back to God.
It is understood that “the faithful” are just that: the faithful: those who adhere to the faith of the Church. Non-Catholics, who do not adhere to the faith of the Church are in a state of material heresy.