Do you have to believe Marian dogma to be a good Catholic?

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I have a question for you. I’m not asking as a “gotcha” question, or to be a wise guy. My question is sincere, and depending on your answer my asvice to you will change. Why are you converting?

Peace,
 
RTully said:
Then how do you explain why Jesus gave it to Judas? Honest question.
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Maybe he had confessed to Jesus beforehand?

Or maybe Jesus read his heart and knew that, at that moment, Judas was desiring to be in One with Him?

Or maybe he denied it to Judas. It doesn’t say in Scripture that Judas actually received the Eucharist. 🤷
 
RTully said:
Then how do you explain why Jesus gave it to Judas? Honest question.
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St. Paul says that if we eat the Bread and drink the Cup in an unworthy manner we eat and drink judgment on ourselves.

How did eating and drinking in an unworthy manner work out for Judas?

Peace,
 
Dndspoon said:
If Mary was born sinless, that would not make her human, for the very definition of human is a flawed creature by the Biblical standard.
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Were not Adam and Eve born sinless?
I was told that Jesus could not have been inside a sinful woman, yet when we partake of the Hold Sacrament, Jesus ends up inside us, His literal Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity.
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It is not quite correct to say that Jesus “could not have been inside a sinful woman.”

What is more correct to say is that it was ***fitting ***that Jesus be inside a perfect vessel. That is the proper and holy place for God Incarnate.
 
When I converted to the Catholic faith, each of us was asked individually, at the alter, and I am paraphrasing here, Do you believe and accept all of the truths as revealed to and taught by the Catholic Church? If you could not answer yes to that question with an honest heart, then your acceptance into the Church was postponed. Part of being Catholic is even if we have trouble wrapping our minds around a teaching of the Church, we accept it in faith because it has been dogmatically defined by the Magisterium of Christ’s Church. I pray that God will give you that faith.
 
Dan_Daly said:
First off, WELCOME. That’s great news that you are coming fully into the Catholic Church.

You do not have to be sinful in order to be human.

Jesus Christ was fully human as well as fully divine.

Adam and Eve were both human, even before the fall.

The short answer to your question is- yes. You do have to believe what the Church teaches about Mary in order to be a faithful, orthodox, Catholic. This includes Mary’s perpetual virginity, Mary’s motherhood of God, the Immaculate Conception, and the Assupmtion.

As far as virginity goes, it is very likely that both Mary and Joseph had made vows of perpetual virginity before even knowing each other. This was not that rare among Jews at the time. They would have made simple vows earlier in life, and solemn vows after being married.

It’s also important to note that Perpetual Virginity, includes physical virginity. Meaning Mary was physically intact. Jesus wasn’t born the way most babies are born.

Belief in these doctrines has been around in the Church since the beginning- since when they happened. They are not modern inventions.

Mary is often “a stumbling block” for Protestants coming to the Faith. Trust her and trust the Church. Pray to her. She is your heavenly mother. Pray the rosary daily.

Pax and God Bless!
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I’m new to this. Could you explain in more detail what you mean when you say, “Mary is the mother of God?”
You don’t mean Mary created the eternal essence that makes the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit one, do you? Do you just mean that Mary is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God?

And what is the Assumption?

Did you say Mary & Joseph were never joined sexually? What do you mean when you say, “Mary was physically intact,” and, " Jesus wasn’t born the way most babies are born"?

Thank you! God bless you.
 
Cal_Fullerton said:
I’m new to this. Could you explain in more detail what you mean when you say, “Mary is the mother of God?”
You don’t mean Mary created the eternal essence that makes the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit one, do you? Do you just mean that Mary is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God?

And what is the Assumption?

Did you say Mary & Joseph were never joined sexually? What do you mean when you say, “Mary was physically intact,” and, " Jesus wasn’t born the way most babies are born"?

Thank you! God bless you.
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Who is Jesus? Who is His mother?

God bless
 
Dndspoon said:
If Mary was born sinless, that would not make her human, for the very definition of human is a flawed creature by the Biblical standard. So she would have to be like a goddess or something. I was told that Jesus could not have been inside a sinful woman, yet when we partake of the Hold Sacrament, Jesus ends up inside us, His literal Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. Yet we are sinners. Then there is the whole “Mary full of grace” thing, that if she is full of grace therefore she is with out sin. But why is “full of grace” not in the Protestant Bible?

As for her remaining a virgin for the rest of her life, it seems to contradict the Bible, well my Protestant Bible anyways. In, Matthew 1:24-25, it says " Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not KNOW her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus." I don’t know what the Catholic version says so, if you could help me out, that would be great.
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First, of all, good luck and all blessings to you on your journey. These types of concerns and questions are inevitable. In some sense they are blessings to us “cradle Catholics”, who may be otherwise blase about some of the wonders in our salvation history unless questioned.

On your first point, the best explanation I ever heard is that it is a reflection of God’s saving power and grace, in the same fashion as Baptism. Baptism cleanses us of our Original Sin, which is reaqlly the “sin-lessness” that the Immaculate Conception is referring to. It’s a trite example, perhaps, but here goes: Think of Original sin as a mud puddle. We are all born into that puddle, but through the grace of God in Baptism, we are cleaned of that filth. In the case of Mary, God’s grace was effected in her never being born into that “puddle” of sin. Same grace, same manifestation (absence of original sin), different mechanism.

As for your second point, the translation I use most frequently (RSV) is substantially as you quote. However, it looks like there is a difficulty with the translation from Greek to English, in that the Greek “heos” does not map perfectly to the closest English counterpart “until”. My study Bible (Ignatius Press Catholic Study Bible) states, “The Greek heos does not imply that Joseph and Mary had marital relations following Jesus’ birth. The conjunction is often used (translated “to” or “till”) to indicate a select period of time, without implying change in the future (2 Sam 6:23; Jn 9:18; 1 Tim 4:13). Here Matthew emphasizes only that Joseph had no involvement in Mary’s pregnancy before Jesus’ birth.”

God bless,
 
For me the best “proof” has always been reasoning and looking to the typological references between OT and NT.

You’re over the biggest hurdles, accepting God and belief in Jesus as one person in the Holy Trinity. You know that Jesus is perfect and pure as the Father, you know that he was born of Mary.

Does it make logical sense to believe that His perfection and purity in the flesh would be born of an impure Mother?

Of course, God can do anything, so he could have conceived Jesus purely in an impure vessel, but to me that just doesn’t seem as logical and revealing about who He is as Him showing that He can save a soul from sin at conception to create a pure vessel, just as easily as he can redeem a soul in any other way He sees fit.

And what we know about the typology of Mary and the Ark of the Covenant: God did not permit anything to be placed in the Ark except the Covenant, the bread and the rod. Why would the Ark of the New Covenant be treated differently?

To me, saying that Mary wasn’t immaculately conceived or that she she wasn’t a perpetual virgin is suggesting that Jesus is less sacred than the Covenant, the bread and rod. That seems preposterous to my sense of reason. God using Mary to bring Christ to us but allowing her to be treated with less respect than the Ark of the Covenant? Mary consenting completely to God’s will and carrying her self with less respect than the Ark?

That doesn’t make sense to me. We’re not talking about stone tablets, bread and a metal rod (sacred as they were), we’re talking God incarnate, and we’re talking a human being, not a box. I can’t possibly imagine Mary being treated with less reverence and respect by God or anyone that believes in Christ (Mary and Joseph the first two to believe…) than a Jew would treat the Ark of the Covenant.

Of course, we all think differently and if this doesn’t help you, you won’t be the first to still have doubts and need something more…

Just in case you do require more, I’ll keep you in mind as I pray the Rosary this week, I’m sure she’ll do her best to intercede on your behalf. 🙂

God Bless!
 
Well I read what Martin Luther believed about Mary, and I was surprised. He believed everything the CC teaches. I think i might pray to Mary, ask her to guide me to her. Thanks everyone.
 
Dndspoon said:
Well I read what Martin Luther believed about Mary, and I was surprised. He believed everything the CC teaches. I think i might pray to Mary, ask her to guide me to her. Thanks everyone.
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Good idea. I would add that Mary is all about pointing people to her Son, Jesus. That’s the beauty of knowing her. She is never about herself. She wants you to know her Son more intimately, and she wants to “mother” you, too. She is the perfect disciple, and a loving mother to ALL her children. The more you know her, the more you will see her pointing to Jesus. She was with Jesus from conception to the cross. She won’t get in the way of your relationship with Jesus, she will make it stronger and closer.

BTW, here is a great video, in case you have not seen it yet.

youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA&list=FLVgVXvZn-WNU-FNRmoWX6bg&index=7

Peace
 
Dndspoon said:
Well I read what Martin Luther believed about Mary, and I was surprised. He believed everything the CC teaches. I think i might pray to Mary, ask her to guide me to her. Thanks everyone.
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Our Blessed Mother guides to her Son. But I undertsand what you are saying. 😉 God bless you.
 
I am, God willing, coming into the church this Easter. I know your struggle and I will pray for you. For myself, looking at Mary as the second Eve, the way Jesus is the second Adam made a lot of sense to me and got me over the Mary hump, lol. Read Gen 3 and meditate on it.

The REAL issue though is the authority of the Church. When I first became a Christian, I had to get used to a lot of concepts that were foreign to me in the Bible. I trusted the Bible because I knew Jesus was God, therefore His revelation in the Bible was inerrant. The Church is His revelation too. Did Jesus establish His Church, and is the Catholic Church the church that He established? If you come to the conclusion that it is, then you will be able to trust in the Church the same way you trust in the Bible.

If we ask anything according to His will, it will be done for us. Pray that you will be lead into the fullness of truth. I am praying that for both of us.
 
“God, Holy Spirit, became fecund in Mary, his Spouse. With Her, in Her, and from Her, He produced his Masterpiece, who is God made man, and continues to do so everyday, until the end of times, in the Mystical Body of its members, sons of God, similar to the only Son. **Therefore, the more the Holy Spirit finds Mary in a soul, His most living and indissoluble spouse, the more powerful and dynamic the Holy Spirit reveals himself, in order to produce Jesus Christ into that particular soul and that soul to Jesus Christ”. **(Saint Louis of Montfort.)
 
I agree that it is a matter of the authority of the Church. I had no religion when God, who had been tapping me on the shoulder for a couple years, took me by the scruff of the neck and gave me a good shake. I was then filled with a burning desire to be baptised a Christian. I needed a church to do the baptising, so the question became which church?

I had lived most of my life, by this time, in the Middle East, very close to the Holy Land and was immersed in the history. I knew that the Catholic Church was the first Church. The Catholic Church was founded by Christ. It is in the bible, where Jesus renames Simon to Peter and says He will build His Church on him. How many times has God renamed people - Abram to Abraham, Sarai to Sarah, Jacob to Israel, Simon to Peter? Every time, it has been someone pivotal in God’s plan for the salvation of mankind.

Then we come to why we believe that the Bible is holy. How do we* know* that the Bhagavad Gita is not scripture? We know because the Catholic Church, in a series of Councils, declared these writings to be scripture and no others. It is the Catholic Church’s Holy Book. All other Christian churches have taken our Holy Book to be their Holy Book (with a few changes).

So, if you accept the Bible as Holy Writ, you have accepted the authority of the Church, even if unknowingly.

I accepted the Authority of the Church, first to declare certain writings to be Inspired, then the rest of Her Teachings. It didn’t matter if I completely understood a dogma or doctrine or not; it was sufficient that the Church declared it to be Truth. If I had other ideas about a particular doctrine, then I assumed that I was wrong and the Church was right. Hopefully, understanding, full comprehension would come.

Sometimes it has, sometimes, it is still a Mystery, like the Trinity.

It was like I had finally surrendered to God when I accepted the Authority of His Church. I received a peace that words cannot describe and I knew that I was where God wanted me to be.

For Dndspoon:
May the grace of the Sacred Heart be with you, The peace of the Sacred Heart encompass You; The Merits of the Sacred Heart plead for you; The love of the Sacred Heart inflame you; The sorrows of the Sacred Heart console you; The zeal of the Sacred Heart animate you; The virtues of the Sacred Heart shine forth in your word and work; And may the joys of the beatific vision be your eternal reward. Amen.
Sacred Heart of Jesus, I Trust in You
Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us.
:gopray2:
 
If you like listening to lectures you might want to listen to this lecture-- scroll down to Mary as the Second Eve. hebrewcatholic.org/themesoftheearly.html
Linda_Marie said:
How many times has God renamed people - Abram to Abraham, Sarai to Sarah, Jacob to Israel, Simon to Peter? Every time, it has been someone pivotal in God’s plan for the salvation of mankind.
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Wow! This is an amazing point I had not considered before!
 
One point to consider that hasn’t been addressed (best I’ve noticed) regarding Mary’s perpetual virginity and she being ‘Full of Grace’ is that she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit. By the Holy Spirit she did conceive and bear a son, Jesus. We being prone to sin can bear children without marriage. God can not sin. Thus was the BVM the spouse of the Holy Spirit. From this comes two points. First is obviously her perpetual virginity. Secondly she more than any other person has entered into fuller communion with God. She is daughter of the Father; mother of the Son; and spouse of the Holy Spirit. Truly she is Full of Grace.
 
DavidFilmer said:
Yes, it is quite possible to be a good and faithful Catholic and not be persuaded that the Church’s teaching on Mary is true.

We can’t force ourselves to believe something. I shared some of your same doubts about the Church’s Marian teaching when I converted.

To be “faithful,” you must be open to the possibility that the teaching really is true but that you are simply not understanding it properly. You are also free to question why it is true, but not to claim that it is untrue (ie, you can’t be a faithful Catholic and say, “the Church is wrong about this”).
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I’m glad to know that one can be a faithful Catholic and not be persuaded that the Church’s teaching on Mary is true.

What does the teaching on Mary include aside from her being the mother of God and a faithful woman of God?
You believe we can (& should?) pray to Mary? Is there any Scriptural support for this?

Thanks! Love to all.
 
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