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Cal_Fullerton
Guest
Yes.
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JD27076
Guest
100th reply 
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PRmerger
Guest
Of course. The CC has never proclaimed that “joining yourself to a spouse” is a sin.
However, remaining continent during one’s marriage is also not a sin.
Or are you saying that Joseph not having relations with Mary was sinful?
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PRmerger
Guest
But proclaiming that Joseph and Mary had relations does indeed taint Jesus.
That’s the entire point of Marian teachings–they always point to an understanding of her son.
IOW “We believe _____ about Mary because we believe _________ about Jesus.”
That is, any dogma/doctrine/belief about Mary somehow confirms, enhances and re-affirms a teaching on Jesus (or His Body, the Church) rather than serving to exalt Mary.
So how does the idea that Joseph and Mary had relations taint Jesus?
Imagine trying to evangelize a Muslim that Jesus is divine. He is skeptical and says: well, how “divine” could he be if the vessel that carried him for 9 months carried some other human beings later?
He thinks: her womb was just like any other woman’s and carried nothing special and was not set apart for anything. Thus, it really could not be GOD INCARNATE that dwelled within her.
And, I ask you this, Cal: if your wife carried Him Whom the World Could Not Contain, the Divine Creator of the Universe, would you feel fit to enjoy conjugal relations after she bore the Alpha and Omega?
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TimothyH
Guest
Personally, and this is just me… Living in the heart of Southern Baptist Evangelical Christianity here in the deep south, what Protestants think of Catholic devotion to Mary and the saints is about number 56,743 on the list of things I am currently concerned about. I could choose to be very disturbed by much of what Protestantism does, but I make a choice not to be disturbed.
Jesus is the love of my life. His Mother is the second love of my life. I’m not ashamed of either.
And no, I don’t think Jesus is as close to me as he is to a monk who prays 7 hours each day or as close as he is to the Holy Father. God also willed a hierarchical structure. We go to a priest for confession, not straigt to God. We go to Church to worship, not straight to God. We go to the Church for teaching, not straight to God. That’s how God set things up.
-Tim-
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Cal_Fullerton
Guest
PRmerger said, “remaining continent during one’s marriage is also not a sin.”
Do you mean “using birth control” or that sort of thing? You’re not disagreeing with 1 Cor. 7:5 are you? It says “Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.”
You asked me, “Or are you saying that Joseph not having relations with Mary was sinful?”
No, I’m open to the possibility that God made a rare exception. (The longer I am a Christian, the more I realize how many exceptions God has to his rules—although there is never an exception to the rule of loving your neighbor.) It just seems to me that making an exception in the case of Joseph & Mary would be unnecessary. But like you said, we’re straying into speculation.
Do you mean “using birth control” or that sort of thing? You’re not disagreeing with 1 Cor. 7:5 are you? It says “Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.”
You asked me, “Or are you saying that Joseph not having relations with Mary was sinful?”
No, I’m open to the possibility that God made a rare exception. (The longer I am a Christian, the more I realize how many exceptions God has to his rules—although there is never an exception to the rule of loving your neighbor.) It just seems to me that making an exception in the case of Joseph & Mary would be unnecessary. But like you said, we’re straying into speculation.
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PRmerger
Guest
No. Birth control and “remaining continent” are not the same.
I give a hearty
to 1 Cor 7:5.
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PRmerger
Guest
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
Continence may be defined as abstinence from even the licit gratifications of marriage. It is a form of the virtue of temperance, though Aristotle did not accord it this high character since it involved a conflict with wrong desires—an element, in the mind of the philosopher, foreign to the content of a virtue in the strict sense. Continence, it is seen, has a more restricted significance than chastity, since the latter finds place in the condition of marriage. The abstinence we are discussing, then, belongs to the state of celibacy, though clearly the notion of this latter does not necessarily involve that of continence.
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Cal_Fullerton
Guest
I like what Edwin said.
On the other hand, I believe one can go through the Catholic church to worship, go to priests for confession, etc., and get as close to God as any Protestant. The danger of going “to the Church for teaching, not straight to God” is that if the church ever strays, you will stray with her.
A verse in 1 John says we don’t need anyone to teach us because we have a anointing to teach us. I think a combination of listening to good teachers in the church and having an intimate relationship with Jesus is ideal.
Love ya all!
On the other hand, I believe one can go through the Catholic church to worship, go to priests for confession, etc., and get as close to God as any Protestant. The danger of going “to the Church for teaching, not straight to God” is that if the church ever strays, you will stray with her.
A verse in 1 John says we don’t need anyone to teach us because we have a anointing to teach us. I think a combination of listening to good teachers in the church and having an intimate relationship with Jesus is ideal.
Love ya all!
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PRmerger
Guest
Except that Jesus promised the Church could never stray.
(Matt 16:18)
Not sure what you mean here, Cal. We do need teachers, or we don’t?
Right back at cha!
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Cal_Fullerton
Guest
PRmerger said, “And, I ask you this, Cal: if your wife carried Him Whom the World Could Not Contain, the Divine Creator of the Universe, would you feel fit to enjoy conjugal relations after she bore the Alpha and Omega?”
Wow.
I would remind myself of 1 Corinthians 7:5 and go ahead with fear and trembling . . . and feel like the luckiest man alive!
Wow.
I would remind myself of 1 Corinthians 7:5 and go ahead with fear and trembling . . . and feel like the luckiest man alive!
C
Cal_Fullerton
Guest
PRmerger said, “Jesus promised the Church could never stray.”
We’re getting off topic so I’ll be brief. I believe the true church is made up of those who faithfully walk in the Father’s ways by the power of the Spirit. THAT church cannot be defeated.
You asked, “We do need teachers, or we don’t?”
They are important.
I’m enjoying our conversation but I better go do some other things now.
Catch ya later!
We’re getting off topic so I’ll be brief. I believe the true church is made up of those who faithfully walk in the Father’s ways by the power of the Spirit. THAT church cannot be defeated.
You asked, “We do need teachers, or we don’t?”
They are important.
I’m enjoying our conversation but I better go do some other things now.
Catch ya later!
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catharina
Guest
On Holy Thursday, at the Last Supper, Our Lord, knowing He facedExcept that Jesus promised the Church could never stray.
(Matt 16:18)
death so soon promised: “I will not leave you orphans.”
He left the Church to guide us, teach us, lead us.
from Matthew 16: 13-19
"When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi
he asked his disciples,
“Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah,
still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter said in reply,
“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah.
For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And so I say to you, you are Peter,
and upon this rock I will build my Church,
and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of heaven.
Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven;
and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
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PRmerger
Guest
Fair enough.PRmerger said, “And, I ask you this, Cal: if your wife carried Him Whom the World Could Not Contain, the Divine Creator of the Universe, would you feel fit to enjoy conjugal relations after she bore the Alpha and Omega?”
Wow.
I would remind myself of 1 Corinthians 7:5 and go ahead with fear and trembling . . . and feel like the luckiest man alive!
You’d go ahead with “fear and trembling”…That is a very curious way to approach the marital embrace.
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catharina
Guest
One more thing …
There is a strong support for consecrated celibacy within
the Catholic Church, going back to St. Paul. The Roman
Catholic Church supports, requires, recommends a celibate
priesthood and there are hundreds of communities of woman
who are also consecrated through vows of Chastity to a life
of celibacy (perpetual virginity). So while this lifestyle might
seem unusual to many Protestants, it does not seem unusual
at all to Roman Catholics. The nature of SACRIFICE is central
to such a choice. Joseph’s choice in this was his own choice.
In all of my life, I’ve never heard any Catholic who has found
Joseph’s chastity (celibacy) to be unusual or extraordinary.
Just a thought … .
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Cal_Fullerton
Guest
That did occur to me, Cathorina.
I think that in the final analysis what matters is what is unusual or extraordinary to God.
Mormons find nothing extraordinary about Joseph Smith’s idea that God was once a man like us. They have heard it over and over again until it has lost its unusual-ness. Modern Protestants find God’s methods of punishing his people in the OT when they sinned unusual and extraordinary (stoning, for example).
My point here is not that the Mormon Church or the Catholic Church or Protestant churches aren’t Christian—far from it! My point is that if we want to experience the fullness of God’s peace and succeed in carrying out his perfect will for our lives, we will want to let the Word of God renew our minds so that what is foreign (strange, unusual, extraordinary) to the kingdom of God is foreign to us. I think we can all agree on that!
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Cal_Fullerton
Guest
Ahhh. The ago old question of whether the rock was Peter or his confession? Maybe both?
In any case, wouldn’t you agree that if someone has not made Jesus their personal Lord and Savior, including a revelation that Jesus is the Son of the living God, that that person cannot claim to be a part of the true church?
Someone has said we cannot be a good Catholic unless we believe what the CC teaches about Mary. How much more would that be true if we don’t believe what the CC teaches about Jesus?
Love to you all.
C
catharina
Guest
*Previous quote from Cal:
"I like what Edwin said.
On the other hand, I believe one can go through the Catholic church to worship, go to priests for confession, etc., and get as close to God as any Protestant. The danger of going “to the Church for teaching, not straight to God” is that if the church ever strays, you will stray with her.
A verse in 1 John says we don’t need anyone to teach us because we have a anointing to teach us. I think a combination of listening to good teachers in the church and having an intimate relationship with Jesus is ideal."*
Church, in direct descent from the hand of Christ, cannot mis-lead its followers
in matter of faith and morals. Within that framework, there is nothing unusual
about a life of personal sacrifice, even including a life of consecrated celbacy.
So that your earlier query about ‘how could Joseph live a life without you-know-what’
can stand as a bit ‘out of order’ to any within the Catholic faith. The following posts
flowed from that post of yours and the one quoted at the top here. In one more
point - the Mormon church is not held as Christian by Catholics since the LDS
have no full and tur teaching regarding the Blessed Trinity (among other things).
Yes, God leads us and within the Catholic Church,
He does so without any possibility of error.
"I like what Edwin said.
On the other hand, I believe one can go through the Catholic church to worship, go to priests for confession, etc., and get as close to God as any Protestant. The danger of going “to the Church for teaching, not straight to God” is that if the church ever strays, you will stray with her.
A verse in 1 John says we don’t need anyone to teach us because we have a anointing to teach us. I think a combination of listening to good teachers in the church and having an intimate relationship with Jesus is ideal."*
Yet my point and possibly, the point of PRmerger too is that the Catholic
Church, in direct descent from the hand of Christ, cannot mis-lead its followers
in matter of faith and morals. Within that framework, there is nothing unusual
about a life of personal sacrifice, even including a life of consecrated celbacy.
So that your earlier query about ‘how could Joseph live a life without you-know-what’
can stand as a bit ‘out of order’ to any within the Catholic faith. The following posts
flowed from that post of yours and the one quoted at the top here. In one more
point - the Mormon church is not held as Christian by Catholics since the LDS
have no full and tur teaching regarding the Blessed Trinity (among other things).
Yes, God leads us and within the Catholic Church,
He does so without any possibility of error.
T
thenobes
Guest
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Cal_Fullerton
Guest
Cathorina said, “Yes, God leads us and within the Catholic Church,
He does so without any possibility of error.”
Please expound.
Are you saying God overshadows the freewill (free choices) of the Pope & other leaders, guaranteeing they will not lead the church astray—even in the smallest detail?
Speaking of the Mormon Church (LDS), they believe “the Lord will never allow the President of the Church to lead us astray.” This quote is from p. 42 of Gospel Principles, an LDS book used every Sunday in classrooms of LDS chapels across the country. In my opinion, this belief is one of the main reasons, if not the main reason Mormons have accepted so many false teachings.
(I hope I’m not coming on too strong. I appreciate your faith, Cathorina, and the precious faith of all Christians on this blog. I also appreciate you answering my questions. It may not sound like it now, but I will use what I learn to defend the Christian nature of the Catholic Church. I believe we’re all called by God to break down the denominational divisions that grieve him so. Pope John Paul II told twenty-six leaders of several denominations, “Indeed, is it not the duty of every follower of Christ to work for the unity of all Christians?”)
God bless.
He does so without any possibility of error.”
Please expound.
Are you saying God overshadows the freewill (free choices) of the Pope & other leaders, guaranteeing they will not lead the church astray—even in the smallest detail?
Speaking of the Mormon Church (LDS), they believe “the Lord will never allow the President of the Church to lead us astray.” This quote is from p. 42 of Gospel Principles, an LDS book used every Sunday in classrooms of LDS chapels across the country. In my opinion, this belief is one of the main reasons, if not the main reason Mormons have accepted so many false teachings.
(I hope I’m not coming on too strong. I appreciate your faith, Cathorina, and the precious faith of all Christians on this blog. I also appreciate you answering my questions. It may not sound like it now, but I will use what I learn to defend the Christian nature of the Catholic Church. I believe we’re all called by God to break down the denominational divisions that grieve him so. Pope John Paul II told twenty-six leaders of several denominations, “Indeed, is it not the duty of every follower of Christ to work for the unity of all Christians?”)
God bless.
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