Do you have to speak?

[Matthew_Holford]

Kneeling or not is the Bishop’s decision not yours, and the ruling has been made.

It is indeed the decision of the relevant local ordinary. In which (arch)diocese has this ruling been made?

 

[IronMIke]

Until someone writes a letter to Rome about this and they intervene. Rome has said that unless there is a sufficient reason to not kneel during the consecration, we are to kneel during the consecration. Rome has also specified that the absence of kneelers isn’t sufficient reason.

I am just the messenger, so barking at me does no good. but that info is wrong. Our parish has not option kneel or stand., and vastly over 90% stand. There is another RCC close to my home and they all kneel.

 

[IronMIke]

It is indeed the decision of the relevant local ordinary. In which (arch)diocese has this ruling been made?

Arch of St Paul/Minneapolis.

 

[IronMIke]

Yes my parish. I can’t speak for your parish nor vice versa.

 

[IronMIke]

Concede the point you mentioned.

Bigger picture is that kneeling is not monolithic within the RCC.

 

[centurionguard]

It seems like many have already answered your question. But I have one request. When you do learn the responses during Mass, please say them loudly and clearly. You obviously don’t have to shout, but don’t mumble them either. I’ve been at parishes where the Mass just seems dead because everyone mumbles or whispers responses. It feels like the congregation is ashamed or don’t truly believe what they are saying when it’s so quiet. Of course, if you are shy person I wouldn’t want to push you into doing something that makes you uncomfortable.

Actually; I give responses to the priest invocation silently to myself, but not because its my intention to be different or unresponsive. I have a very loud clear voice for the most part because I’m partially deaf and loosing my hearing. Can’t afford expensive hearing aids.

Maybe I wrong but I think its mostly men you’ll see at Mass who a generally more quieter in joining in prayer responses from the priest. I think you’ll generally find its different from parish to parish which sometimes has to do with age and maturity.

 

[superamazingman]

Kneeling or not is the Bishop’s decision not yours, and the ruling has been made.

No, it’s not, unless you’re talking about kneeling after the lamb of God.

When it comes to kneeling during the Eucharistic prayer, the bishop does not have the authority to change anything. If he is pretending that he does, he is simply being disobedient.

 

[IronMIke]

No, it’s not, unless you’re talking about kneeling after the lamb of God.

When it comes to kneeling during the Eucharistic prayer, the bishop does not have the authority to change anything. If he is pretending that he does, he is simply being disobedient.

you are a little late into this conversation and anyway your information has been debunked.

 

[superamazingman]

you are a little late into this conversation and anyway your information has been debunked.

No, it hasn’t. Show me a church document that says the bishop is allowed to make changes to the posture of the congregation during the eucharistic prayer. Anecdotes mean effectively nothing in this case, since we’re not discussing whether it is physically possible for a bishop to write a letter allowing people to stand, but whether his is allowed to do so.

The burden of proof is on you to prove it’s ok. Here’s my proof that it’s not (there’s many more, this is just one):

Redemptionis Sacramentum number 27. says clearly: “Accordingly, individual Bishops and their Conferences do not have the faculty to permit experimentation with liturgical texts or the other matters that are prescribed in the liturgical books.”

 

[Matthew_Holford]

The Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis does not require the faithful to stand during the Eucharistic Prayer. On the contrary the Archbishop requires the faithful to kneel. I have had this confirmed by Fr John Paul Erickson, the Director of the Office of Worship of the said Archdiocese. This information was provided by him a few minutes ago in an email. He has asked me to lend my help in disspelling the rumour to the contrary. I hope this post helps him.

 

[revert_jen]

IronMike, as much as I hate to continue in the derailment of this thread, much of what you say is confusing.

I miss as did some other in our parish the old missal, so we incorporated some old and new into the Mass. And also with you…

This is not the right of the parish. It is not even the right of the Bishop, AFAIK, but it doesn’t matter, because yours is clearly against the practice.
"Archbishop John Nienstedt:

As a way of ensuring that this new text is fully implemented within our local Church, I am asking all liturgical communities to ensure that a review and implementation of the most up to date General Instruction of the Roman Missal be completed by the first Sunday of Lent, 2012, paying special attention to such matters as the posture used at Mass, the modification or omission of liturgical texts without the necessary approval, and the purification of sacred vessels.

(It’s a very nice pastoral letter. You can see the whole thing here: archspm.org/reference/pastoral-letters-detail.php?intResourceID=4780)

I am just the messenger, so barking at me does no good. but that info is wrong. Our parish has not option kneel or stand., and vastly over 90% stand.

Sorry, instead of “Our parish has not option kneel or stand” did you mean “In our diocese, the Bishop has now allowed individual pastors to decide to allow the option of kneeling or standing?” First, I am assuming from context that “not” vs. “now” was just a typo. The reason it matters is that it reverses the meaning of the sentence. Second, it is 100% sure that an individual pastor does NOT have the authority to decide this unless the Bishop specifically allows priests in his diocese to make this decision. I could not find any reference on the Archdiocese’s web site indicating that this allowance has been made, but I may have missed it.

There is another RCC close to my home and they all kneel.

BTW, this is why I am assuming you mean the Bishop has provided pastors with the option to allow standing, rather than just universally allowing standing for the whole diocese. But if you mean that this other Catholic church near your home is actually in another diocese, then that changes things.

In any case, “Our Bishop allows our pastors to decide whether people can stand instead of kneeling if they want” is a far cry from:

We no longer kneel, its sit or stand entire mass. Some RCC still do kneel.

…with no indication that “we” in this case is (instead of Catholics generally, which might be assumed by a non-Catholic from context) just 90% the people at your particular parish. Without this qualification, your statement is at best confusing. And in any case it has nothing to do with the situation because you were responding to my statement that it is handy to sit forward in case people behind you want to kneel, which would still apply in your parish because those 10% who are kneeling do count.

–Jen

 

[revert_jen]

No, it hasn’t. Show me a church document that says the bishop is allowed to make changes to the posture of the congregation during the eucharistic prayer. Anecdotes mean effectively nothing in this case, since we’re not discussing whether it is physically possible for a bishop to write a letter allowing people to stand, but whether his is allowed to do so.

Well, I really appreciate your zeal for the liturgy (and personally, as long as I’m allowed to kneel, I’m going to do so), I’m afraid that on this point you are mostly wrong. The bishops’ conferences have authority here because it has been explicitly granted to them in the GIRM. Some of that authority has been handed by them to individual bishops.
GIRM #43:

…Nevertheless, it is up to the Conference of Bishops to adapt the gestures and postures described in the Order of Mass to the culture and reasonable traditions of the people. The Conference, however, must make sure that such adaptations correspond to the meaning and character of each part of the celebration…

There are a few more relevant passages. This first one is part of the universal part:
GIRM #43:

…The faithful should … kneel at the consecration, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.

The adaptations for the United States include this:
GIRM #43:

…In the Dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by ill health, or for reasons of lack of space, of the large number of people present, or for another reasonable cause. However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

The other reference to kneeling, which may include bits that are specific to the US, is this:
GIRM #43:

…The faithful should sit, on the other hand, during the readings before the Gospel and the Responsorial Psalm and for the Homily and during the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory; and, if appropriate, they may sit or kneel during the period of sacred silence after Communion…

My take on kneeling is this:

(note: when I say people should be kneeling, I am assuming that no unusual conditions exist, i.e. “except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason.”)

Everyone in the Latin Rite should be kneeling at the consecration. It is possible that a bishop’s conference could change this, but it’s not 100% clear.

Everyone in the US should be kneeling from the Sanctus through the great Amen.

Individual bishops in the US can decide whether people in their diocese kneel from after the Agnus Dei through when they get up to receive Communion.

Individual people can decide whether they would prefer to sit or kneel after they have received and until the priest pronounces the prayer after Communion (when people should be standing.)

Sorry this was so long and I had to take so many pieces out of the same paragraph of the GIRM.

–Jen

 

[revert_jen]

The Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis does not require the faithful to stand during the Eucharistic Prayer. On the contrary the Archbishop requires the faithful to kneel. I have had this confirmed by Fr John Paul Erickson, the Director of the Office of Worship of the said Archdiocese. This information was provided by him a few minutes ago in an email. He has asked me to lend my help in disspelling the rumour to the contrary. I hope this post helps him.

Thanks! This makes everything a lot clearer. When you look for something, you can’t be sure whether you didn’t find it because it wasn’t there, or whether you didn’t find it because you didn’t look properly. Now I know it wasn’t there. Unfortunately I had already written my post by the time I saw yours.

–Jen

 

[IronMIke]

The Archdiocese of Saint Paul and Minneapolis does not require the faithful to stand during the Eucharistic Prayer. On the contrary the Archbishop requires the faithful to kneel. I have had this confirmed by Fr John Paul Erickson, the Director of the Office of Worship of the said Archdiocese. This information was provided by him a few minutes ago in an email. He has asked me to lend my help in disspelling the rumour to the contrary. I hope this post helps him.

All due respect ,the Fr is not up to speed on all churches in St Paul /Mpls.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

All due respect ,the Fr is not up to speed on all churches in St Paul /Mpls.

My experience has taught me that anything beginning with “All due respect …” is usually not that respectfull. It is a redundant phrase.

Now to the point you might be making. I am not sure what it is. It is likely to be one of two things. The first possibility is that you do not fully understand governance in the Latin Catholic Church. The other possibility is that your parish is in disobedience to both its proper ordinary and to the Latin Catholic Church. Could you please tell us which one it is?

 

[IronMIke]

My experience has taught me that anything beginning with “All due respect …” is usually not that respectfull. It is a redundant phrase.

Now to the point you might be making. I am not sure what it is. It is likely to be one of two things. The first possibility is that you do not fully understand governance in the Latin Catholic Church. The other possibility is that your parish is in disobedience to both its proper ordinary and to the Latin Catholic Church. Could you please tell us which one it is?

It’s not about me, its the very idea the Priest from the Arch does not know what practice are going in within his immediate area.

 

[IronMIke]

The direct oppositon is due to the fact the Priest is 100% wrong. Or does one have to follow what a Priest says regardless of factual or not?

I don’t follow the advice you espouse.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

It’s not about me, its the very idea the Priest from the Arch does not know what practice are going in within his immediate area.

So you are saying that the Director of the Worship Office is unaware of a liturgical abuse taking place in one the the Archdiocese’s parishes? I’d be happy to PM you his email address and then you could report this abuse to him. Alternatively, PM me your parish’s details and I’ll forward the information to him. I am happy to help out either way.

 

[Josiah_k]

Dear (name removed by moderator) your view is a grey matter for many, my late partner was irish in principle … . wisdom shout`s in the market place, now back on topic , you are funny, but dear wit and sleuth of catholicsm in and out is are only hope of providence .

??? im sure you dont understand for the irish have tact, tact / sing a song a six pence . OUR LORD SAID call no one rabbi or father, excuse my mistake . . bless me here forum master and dont thank me . . . . i``m just going to fetch the song ?

youtube.com/watch?v=I0zBlHlnR4Y

Back to the topic

 

[ConstantineTG]

Considering the Bibles indicates that at the mere mention of the lord’s name every knee shall bend, it stands to reason that we should kneel in the Jesus’ presence. This isn’t about “what’s easier”.

The passage wasn’t talking about Liturgy. First Ecumenical Council has stated that we stand on Sundays to offer our prayers. Jews stand to pray.