Do you hold hands during the Our Father?

[Deus_Vult]

vicia3:

Can you tell me where in this statement it says that it is acceptable?

They therefore are to shun any appearance of individualism or division, keeping before their eyes that they have the one Father in heaven and therefore are all brothers and sisters to each other." GIRM 95

“Shun any appearance of individualism”…holding hands is the universal gesture of togetherness. Why do you think it’s so bad to do so?

 

[Mom_of_5]

Deus Vult:

For the record my parish does not do this…actually we pray with hands extended…holding hands is not adding anything…it is considered acceptable. I found this reading to be quite helpful in explaining…

catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=508

I am still curious…why do you all think it’s a bad thing to do? I went to Mass in Long Island several months ago and was dismayed at how there was no interaction between the community. I even saw people honking and waving fists while leaving the parking lot. What have we become? It seems to me that some…not all want to distance themselves from the Catholic community element of the Church. Have a PERSONAL relationship with Christ if you will…I’m sorry that sounds a little to Protestant to me. We are the Body of Christ lets start acting like it.

Thank you for the article addressing “hand holding”. It should put the question to rest.(It won’t, however.) I agree with you totally! I believe that the parish as a community has been far more friendly and cooperative since the institution of “hand holding” and “sign of peace”. If someone is ill, or any medical or personal reason does not wish to participate, no one will treat them badly. All that person has to do is smile at their neighbor and fold their hands together in front of them, it is enough for anyone to understand and get the message. I have never had anyone jerk my hand, pull my arm, etc. God is good, let us sing and rejoice!!

Love and peace

Mom

 

[netmilsmom]

Deus Vult:

They therefore are to shun any appearance of individualism or division, keeping before their eyes that they have the one Father in heaven and therefore are all brothers and sisters to each other." GIRM 95

“Shun any appearance of individualism”…holding hands is the universal gesture of togetherness. Why do you think it’s so bad to do so?

If people are uncomfortable with this innovation, how does it promote unity?
Give one other situation where we are expected to hold hands with strangers.

 

[Deus_Vult]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

If people are uncomfortable with this innovation, how does it promote unity?
Give one other situation where we are expected to hold hands with strangers.

Thats just it we should not be uncomfortable and they should not be strangers…how about getting to know the people in your parish???

I go to a huge parish and know quite a number of the people in our Catholic community…not to mention I usually go to Mass at the same time every week and sit in the same place with my family. I think most people do the same because I know a lot of the people that sit near us…and even the ones I dont know yet…I do not consider strangers we are all part of the Body of Christ. Why are you uncomfortable?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

SummaTheo:

Holding hands is something that came from the Protestants.

Once again, as a former Protestant, where do you get this?

In the Baptist Church, doesn’t happen when they pray.

In the Episcopal Church, only happened in one extraodinarily disfunctional parish I attended.

Do you mean, maybe, that it’s a Charismatic thing?

I notice that a lot (not all) of Catholics have this reaction to things that they don’t like in the Church: “It’s a Protestant innovation!” Lots of things they cite, such as the reception of communion while standing, AREN’T AT ALL.

 

[Deus_Vult]

JKirkLVNV:

Once again, as a former Protestant, where do you get this?

In the Baptist Church, doesn’t happen when they pray.

In the Episcopal Church, only happened in one extraodinarily disfunctional parish I attended.

Do you mean, maybe, that it’s a Charismatic thing?

What difference does it make where it came from? Whats wrong with it?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Deus Vult:

What difference does it make where it came from? Whats wrong with it?

Objectively speaking, I don’t see anything WRONG with it per se. I’ve been lead to believe that the bishops have asked us not to do so, as it diminishes the Sign of Peace or something. In obedience to them or the Holy See (it all starts to run together), I don’t do it. I don’t like it anyway, but I wouldn’t make an issue out of it. I was simply addressing the issue that this was somehow “Protestant.” That gets batted around alot and I think there would be some Protestants who would find it a little bewildering, at least the Baptist, Church of Christ, Methodists, Prebyterians, and Episcopalians from my neck of the wood (the Episcopalian where I come from has a lot more in common with SSPX, in terms of liturgical mentality).

 

[HagiaSophia]

JKirkLVNV:

Do you mean, maybe, that it’s a Charismatic thing?

“What has been happening on the local level is but a mirror of the national and international Church scene. We are entering a moment when more uniformity is being demanded. The appearance of the Revised Code of Canon Law in 1983 marked the turning point. No longer could one say that we are waiting till the Revised Code was published before bringing certain elements into line. This new thinking has affected all levels of Church life, e.g., diocesan structures, parish structures, priestly and lay formation, liturgical norms, sacramental practices, and many other aspects of our lives as Catholics. The mood in the Church has changed and is characterized by the appearance of more concrete norms and laws in all of these areas, even ones where the Code would appear to allow more flexibility for local adaptation. The age of “experimentation,” as minimal as it seemed to some, has moved into an age of more consistent and uniform practice in rubrics and laws…”

“…Holding hands is another matter. This is not a rubric approved by either the local bishop, or the Conference of bishops, or Rome. It entered the Catholic Church through the Charismatic Renewal and has no tradition among us. Some dislike it very much and will not participate at Mass at certain parishes because of it. Personally, I find it childish and uncharitable - in that it makes so many people, especially elderly, feel uncomfortable. I have no idea how my successor would deal with it, but my prognosis is that this innovation will not last long…”

Archbishop Weakland’s letter to priests
January 7, 2000

 

[JKirkLVNV]

HagiaSophia:

“…Holding hands is another matter. This is not a rubric approved by either the local bishop, or the Conference of bishops, or Rome. It entered the Catholic Church through the Charismatic Renewal and has no tradition among us. Some dislike it very much and will not participate at Mass at certain parishes because of it. Personally, I find it childish and uncharitable - in that it makes so many people, especially elderly, feel uncomfortable. I have no idea how my successor would deal with it, but my prognosis is that this innovation will not last long…”

Archbishop Weakland’s letter to priests
January 7, 2000

Bingo! And this movement is as foreign to MOST mainline Protestants as it is to the average Catholic, the Holy Fathers’ (Paul VI and John Paul II) approval of it notwithstanding.
Fancy you, HagiaSophia, quoting Rembert Weakland!:bigyikes:

 

[HagiaSophia]

JKirkLVNV:

Bingo! And this movement is as foreign to MOST mainline Protestants as it is to the average Catholic, the Holy Fathers’ (Paul VI and John Paul II) approval of it notwithstanding.
Fancy you, HagiaSophia, quoting Rembert Weakland!:bigyikes:

I always figure if EVEN RW felt that way – the rest of us can be excused…

 

[netmilsmom]

Deus Vult:

Thats just it we should not be uncomfortable and they should not be strangers…how about getting to know the people in your parish???

I go to a huge parish and know quite a number of the people in our Catholic community…not to mention I usually go to Mass at the same time every week and sit in the same place with my family. I think most people do the same because I know a lot of the people that sit near us…and even the ones I dont know yet…I do not consider strangers we are all part of the Body of Christ. Why are you uncomfortable?

I belong to a parish of 750 families. Some of which are my best friends, I am part of the Rosary society, I sell bagels for the Kids for Jesus club, I belong to the welcoming committe and clean the church on rotation with other women. I do not have to physically touch anyone to feel the love in our parish. We are souls coming together to praise Our Lord. We do not have to physically touch to know that. I know that all of us are part of the Body of Christ and spiritually we are one at the Holy Mass.

By holding hands with strangers or friends in Holy Mass it lessens the significants of holding my husband’s or my children’s.
I teach my children to stay away from strangers. I will not allow them to hold the hand of a stranger. That is sending a mixed message.

And I ask you again, where else in American society are we expected to hold a strangers hand?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

By holding hands with strangers or friends in Holy Mass it lessens the significants of holding my husband’s or my children’s.
I teach my children to stay away from strangers. I will not allow them to hold the hand of a stranger. That is sending a mixed message.

And I ask you again, where else in American society are we expected to hold a strangers hand?

I always thought it was odd, anyway, this making a “daisy chain” all over the church.

 

[netmilsmom]

JKirkLVNV:

I always thought it was odd, anyway, this making a “daisy chain” all over the church.

LOL!
I know what you mean.

Why not have “real unity” and all put our arms around each other for the entire mass?

Where does it stop?

 

[Deus_Vult]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I belong to a parish of 750 families. Some of which are my best friends, I am part of the Rosary society, I sell bagels for the Kids for Jesus club, I belong to the welcoming committe and clean the church on rotation with other women. I do not have to physically touch anyone to feel the love in our parish. We are souls coming together to praise Our Lord. We do not have to physically touch to know that. I know that all of us are part of the Body of Christ and spiritually we are one at the Holy Mass.

By holding hands with strangers or friends in Holy Mass it lessens the significants of holding my husband’s or my children’s.
I teach my children to stay away from strangers. I will not allow them to hold the hand of a stranger. That is sending a mixed message.

And I ask you again, where else in American society are we expected to hold a strangers hand?

If you cant hold hands with the people you go to Church with then I dont know what to say to you…in my family we always hold hands when we pray. I consider all members of the Body of Christ my family…I thought we all did…my wishful thinking maybe. I dont see whether or not holding hands elsewhere in American society has to do with what we do in Church. I got into this thread thinking it was a religious practice debate…is it an accepted practice or not etc…I did not realize the main dificulty people have with it is the not wanting to have physical contact with others…how sad is that. Do you think Jesus held peoples hands or hugged people…what a sad world you must live in? I hold hands with my neighbors when we pray before dinner and hey guess what we hug each other when they leave…do you think my wife and I are sending mixed messages to our children or maybe just love and compassion for our fellow man? They know the difference between friend and stranger and we even tell them not to trust anyone but mom and dad…if anything we are over protective but dont hold hands at Church oh no thats a bad thing it takes away from when we hold hands get a grip.

 

[netmilsmom]

Deus Vult:

If you cant hold hands with the people you go to Church with then I dont know what to say to you…in my family we always hold hands when we pray. I consider all members of the Body of Christ my family…I thought we all did…my wishful thinking maybe. I dont see whether or not holding hands elsewhere in American society has to do with what we do in Church. I got into this thread thinking it was a religious practice debate…is it an accepted practice or not etc…I did not realize the main dificulty people have with it is the not wanting to have physical contact with others…how sad is that. Do you think Jesus held peoples hands or hugged people…what a sad world you must live in? I hold hands with my neighbors when we pray before dinner and hey guess what we hug each other when they leave…do you think my wife and I are sending mixed messages to our children or maybe just love and compassion for our fellow man? They know the difference between friend and stranger and we even tell them not to trust anyone but mom and dad…if anything we are over protective but dont hold hands at Church oh no thats a bad thing it takes away from when we hold hands get a grip.

Get a Grip??
Excuse me. Your compassion and tolerance are showing.

I DO feel you and your wife are sending mixed messages to your children. We are in Holy Mass to praise Our Lord and honor him, not for fellowship. Shaking the hand of an individual is the Sign of Peace. Christ is not there in body on the Altar, why are you looking for something physical? I am one spiritually with my entire congregation. I don’t need to hold someone’s hand to prove it.

And it is extremely bold of you to infer that I do not have love nor compassion for my fellow man because I prefer to keep something as intimate as holding hands between the members of my nuclear only. When I hold the hand of my child, she feels special. I need to keep it that way. No one loves my children as I do and they know that by every action. I don’t kiss others and I don’t hold hands with others. Jesus would have had compassion for those people who feel that HOLDING hands with strangers is not appropriate. Also, if you are inviting stranger to your home for dinner, holding their hands and hugging them good-bye, perhaps you should consider some different course of action. Strangers can be dangerous you know.

How sad is it that people do not want the physical contact of others? How about the violation of other’s space? Where is your tolerance? If you tried to hold the hand of a Japanese church goer, you would greatly offend him. It’s a cultural thing and we in American are not expected to hold other’s hands.

Your way is not the only way to think.

 

[OhioBob]

Deus Vult:

For the record my parish does not do this…actually we pray with hands extended…holding hands is not adding anything…it is considered acceptable. I found this reading to be quite helpful in explaining…

catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=508…

I think you need to read your own source a bit more closely…
The argument from silence is not very strong, however, because while there is no particular difficulty in a couple, family or a small group spontaneously holding hands during the Our Father, a problem arises when the entire assembly is expected or obliged to do so…

Thus, if neither the bishops’ conference nor the Holy See has seen fit to prescribe any posture for the recitation of the Our Father, it hardly behooves any lesser authority to impose a novel gesture not required by liturgical law and expect the faithful to follow their decrees.

One could argue that holding hands expresses the family union of the Church. But our singing or reciting the prayer in unison already expresses this element.

The act of holding hands usually emphasizes group or personal unity from the human or physical point of view and is thus more typical of the spontaneity of small groups. Hence it does not always transfer well into the context of larger gatherings where some people feel uncomfortable and a bit imposed upon when doing so.

The use of this practice during the Our Father could detract and distract from the prayer’s God-directed sense of adoration and petition, as explained in Nos. 2777-2865 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in favor of a more horizontal and merely human meaning.

For all of these reasons, no one should have any qualms about not participating in this gesture if disinclined to do so. They will be simply following the universal customs of the Church, and should not be accused of being a cause of disharmony.

It doesn’t sound like the practice is being supported in that source.

Did I miss something…?

 

[Luvadoxi]

“New, warmer feeling?” I was all set to give people who wanted that the benefit of the doubt. If a child has her hand extended–or anyone, fine. I’m not going to be ugly about it. Besides, I want to be in a state of grace. But really–I think the motives are not at all about love and togetherness but something much darker in human nature. I mentioned this on an earlier thread but it upset me so much. I was visiting at a parish. I decided just to close my eyes and keep my hands folded during the Lord’s Prayer. The person next to me just reached over and dug into my hands and yanked my hand over to hold it. I had to really fight my inner demons to remain charitable. Maybe this is what being Catholic is all about; however, lately, I’m losing the battle with myself. I just wanted to let you all know I’m full of hurt and pain, and I don’t know what to do. So–you all have a lovely, warm pleasant feeling there…and I have a real struggle here…and I really don’t know what to do.

Oh, and by the way–those of you who say this is a Protestant thing–I was Protestant for 50 years–and we never did this…where have you seen this in a Protestant church? Maybe somewhere other than Presbyterian or Lutheran churches? We did sometimes have Passing of the Peace. (Really amusing, actually–my former Presbyterian church, that my husband still belongs to, just started doing it, and announced it with great fanfare as something “the early church” used to do! Oh good grief–no sense of history. Well of course not–then they’d have to become Catholic!)

So please–be sensitive to our feelings. Another big one. Kneeling and praying after receiving Communion. I’m fully aware of the “horizontal” dimension–the “full and active participation”, listening to the priest say “Body of Christ” over and over–I just don’t always want to sing with my mouth full, you know? And is it so wrong to want a private moment–does it really mean you’re not really there with the community too? Before I realized some people had another agenda, I was doing this, and this woman just jabbed a hymnal into my ribs. I’m sorry, but I’m just losing the battle–we’re supposed to be like Christ–loving, forgiving, but I’m just not–what are we supposed to do?

Having a really bad week…

 

[netmilsmom]

“New, warmer feeling?” I was all set to give people who wanted that the benefit of the doubt. If a child has her hand extended–or anyone, fine. I’m not going to be ugly about it. Besides, I want to be in a state of grace. But really–I think the motives are not at all about love and togetherness but something much darker in human nature. I mentioned this on an earlier thread but it upset me so much. I was visiting at a parish. I decided just to close my eyes and keep my hands folded during the Lord’s Prayer. The person next to me just reached over and dug into my hands and yanked my hand over to hold it. I had to really fight my inner demons to remain charitable. Maybe this is what being Catholic is all about; however, lately, I’m losing the battle with myself. I just wanted to let you all know I’m full of hurt and pain, and I don’t know what to do. So–you all have a lovely, warm pleasant feeling there…and I have a real struggle here…and I really don’t know what to do.

Oh, and by the way–those of you who say this is a Protestant thing–I was Protestant for 50 years–and we never did this…where have you seen this in a Protestant church? Maybe somewhere other than Presbyterian or Lutheran churches? We did sometimes have Passing of the Peace. (Really amusing, actually–my former Presbyterian church, that my husband still belongs to, just started doing it, and announced it with great fanfare as something “the early church” used to do! Oh good grief–no sense of history. Well of course not–then they’d have to become Catholic!)

So please–be sensitive to our feelings. Another big one. Kneeling and praying after receiving Communion. I’m fully aware of the “horizontal” dimension–the “full and active participation”, listening to the priest say “Body of Christ” over and over–I just don’t always want to sing with my mouth full, you know? And is it so wrong to want a private moment–does it really mean you’re not really there with the community too? Before I realized some people had another agenda, I was doing this, and this woman just jabbed a hymnal into my ribs. I’m sorry, but I’m just losing the battle–we’re supposed to be like Christ–loving, forgiving, but I’m just not–what are we supposed to do?

Having a really bad week…

Oh my Goodness, Lady! My heart goes out to you. (BTW the only time I have seen Protestants holding hands is in Charismatic services or on tv!)

I wish I could bring you to my parish. You would feel great! We kneel, we bow, we sing Latin and Greek, no holding hands, no Orans, no gladhanding or talking before Holy Mass (in fact the Rosary society is leading us before every one), prayer to St. Michael the Archangel to end it, AND we have an enforced dress code.
Not every church is touchie-feelie. You have had a bad experience and I will be praying that you can find a church that will give you what you need.
Or private mail me and I’ll give you directions to mine!

 

[Luvadoxi]

Despite my current bad week, I am a friendly person, but since becoming Catholic two years ago I’ve made some observations–Catholics are so touchy and grouchy about things–and now I’m one of them! Sometimes, the Magisterium exists to protect our feelings–like, when I was first Catholic, I didn’t know about all these factions–I felt uncomfortable about something at a retreat–my concerns were dismissed–later I found out it was something not permitted–well–saying it’s against the Catechism just gets you labeled a fundamentalist, or rigid, or “Jesus wouldn’t care”, or unfriendly–so I really don’t say anything anymore, but I have a high respect for Holy Mother Church–even though I don’t always understand or find the rules easy. I don’t always agree with everything coming from Rome, but I know there’s a reason; I just wish things were explained and people weren’t so quick to dismiss everything like spoiled children. You never see an encyclical in the pew rack, or hear a word about the Pope from the pulpit, or anything about the Catechism.

This thing about why does this enforced friendliness to neighbors in the pews bother us and why don’t we just get with the program–that is just so rude! I never used to dread going to church as a Protestant before, and I never had a problem meeting people or getting along with others, either. You can’t force friendships in a few minutes in church when you’re supposed to be worshipping Christ in the tabernacle. You can talk to each other in the narthex or in the parish hall later. Being Catholic is heck on shy people.

 

[OhioBob]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I wish I could bring you to my parish. You would feel great! We kneel, we bow, we sing Latin and Greek, no holding hands, no Orans, no gladhanding or talking before Holy Mass (in fact the Rosary society is leading us before every one), prayer to St. Michael the Archangel to end it, AND we have an enforced dress code…

Sounds heavenly…