Do you hold hands during the Our Father?

[Luvadoxi]

netil(name removed by moderator)–awesome! your parish sounds just perfect! I’ll have to e-mail you and find out where you live. The strange thing is, my conversion came about through a charismatic-type experience, so I didn’t start out being opposed to it–until personal experience soured me on a lot of stuff. Thanks for letting me vent, and I’m sorry if I stepped on any toes of people for whom holding hands really has helped them–I actually have in the past (tried to)enjoy Mass doing this–it’s just that overall it makes me feel forced and uncomfortable, and it’s coercive–not charitable–not Christlike. Orans is something I’m more comfortable with–it’s portrayed in pictures of early Christians, it comes from the heart of earnest prayer, it’s charismatic, I actually love doing it. I think the problem is the whole aspect of rebellion–it just hurts so much that I never see a papal encyclical; keep hearing homilies comparing the church hierarchy to the Pharisees; hearing about how love is all that matters–and my problem is that I was so thoroughly formed in Lutheran theology that I’m beginning to actually become confused in my formation. Because–it is true that we can become too legalistic, too concerned about rules and not focused on people. So…confusion sets in. I really need to go somewhere else–but there really isn’t anywhere else to go–because it’s basically like this pretty much everywhere. So–I probably overreact to the hand-holding because it’s definitely a visible and open sign not of charity but of hostile rebellion to Rome. Really–it is.

 

[netmilsmom]

OhioBob:

Sounds heavenly…

Come on up!

It’s only three hours from Cleveland!

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Luvadoxi:

Oh, and by the way–those of you who say this is a Protestant thing–I was Protestant for 50 years–and we never did this…where have you seen this in a Protestant church? Maybe somewhere other than Presbyterian or Lutheran churches?

Oh, thank God and the Holy Angels, someone to back me up on this! All of these things that they are being blamed for would truly bewilder the Protestants I know and with whom I was brought up.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

OhioBob:

I think you need to read your own source a bit more closely…The argument from silence is not very strong, however, because while there is no particular difficulty in a couple, family or a small group spontaneously holding hands during the Our Father, a problem arises when the entire assembly is expected or obliged to do so…

’

EGGGGGS-actly!

 

[netmilsmom]

Luvadoxi:

. I think the problem is the whole aspect of rebellion–it just hurts so much that I never see a papal encyclical; keep hearing homilies comparing the church hierarchy to the Pharisees; hearing about how love is all that matters-

OH MY!!!
Geez, you’ve got it bad there!

 

[Deus_Vult]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Get a Grip??
Excuse me. Your compassion and tolerance are showing.

I DO feel you and your wife are sending mixed messages to your children. We are in Holy Mass to praise Our Lord and honor him, not for fellowship. Shaking the hand of an individual is the Sign of Peace. Christ is not there in body on the Altar, why are you looking for something physical? I am one spiritually with my entire congregation. I don’t need to hold someone’s hand to prove it.

“We are in Holy Mass to praise Our Lord and honor him, not for fellowship.” I beg to differ…

A Biblical Perspective On Fellowship

Mat 18:20 (NIV) “For wherever two or three people have come together in my name, I am there, right among them!”

Fellowship is a great privilege, possible whenever the above occurs; in church, Bible studies, prayer meetings, etc…

Acts 4:32 (NIV) All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.

The worst thing we could do is to try to imitate the external behavior of the New Testament church without going through the internal changes, led by the Spirit. True fellowship requires at least: repentance, light, judgment (discernment), protection, good stewardship, the grace gifts and fruit of the Holy Spirit, and real love, as we will study. All this is possible, but only “in Christ”. 1 Jn 1:3-4 (NIV) We repeat, we really saw and heard what we are now writing to you about. We want you to be with us in this–in this fellowship with the Father, and Jesus Christ his Son. We write and tell you about it, so that our joy may be complete.

Col 3:12-15 (NIV) As, therefore, God’s picked representatives, purified and beloved, put on that nature which is merciful in action, kindly in heart, and humble in mind. Accept life, and be most patient and tolerant with each other, always ready to forgive if you have a difference with anyone. Forgive as freely as the Lord has forgiven you. And, above everything else, be truly loving, for love binds all the virtues together in perfection. Let the peace of Christ guide all your decisions, for you were called to live as one united body; and always be thankful.

John 13:34-35 (NIV) “A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. All men will know that you are my disciples if you love one another.” John 15:1-17 ( NIV) I am the true vine… Love each other.

Mat 22:38-40 (NIV) Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the prophets hang on these two commandments.”

I do not want to argue with you…I just do not understand how you are anyone does not feel comfortable holding hands with fellow Roman Catholics…I just do not think this is how God would have us be towards one another…and by the way Christ is there in Body at the alter. “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.”
John 6:54-55 (NIV)

 

[Deus_Vult]

OhioBob:

I think you need to read your own source a bit more closely…The argument from silence is not very strong, however, because while there is no particular difficulty in a couple, family or a small group spontaneously holding hands during the Our Father, a problem arises when the entire assembly is expected or obliged to do so…

Thus, if neither the bishops’ conference nor the Holy See has seen fit to prescribe any posture for the recitation of the Our Father, it hardly behooves any lesser authority to impose a novel gesture not required by liturgical law and expect the faithful to follow their decrees.

One could argue that holding hands expresses the family union of the Church. But our singing or reciting the prayer in unison already expresses this element.

The act of holding hands usually emphasizes group or personal unity from the human or physical point of view and is thus more typical of the spontaneity of small groups. Hence it does not always transfer well into the context of larger gatherings where some people feel uncomfortable and a bit imposed upon when doing so.

The use of this practice during the Our Father could detract and distract from the prayer’s God-directed sense of adoration and petition, as explained in Nos. 2777-2865 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in favor of a more horizontal and merely human meaning.

For all of these reasons, no one should have any qualms about not participating in this gesture if disinclined to do so. They will be simply following the universal customs of the Church, and should not be accused of being a cause of disharmony.

It doesn’t sound like the practice is being supported in that source.

Did I miss something…?

I was not trying to prove that it was approved GIRM norm…I was pointing out that the GIRM does not say one way or the other. The link I provided only backs up what my particular parish does…but does not go so far as to say it is wrong to hold hands. That was and is my only point.

 

[st_felicity]

I usually don’t–I always sit up front so (sadly) there aren’t too many people around me. I usually fold my hands in front and pay little attention to people around me, or I sweep my smallest child into my arms and pray holding him. But if someone does reach out to me as has happened–I don’t think that during a moment of prayer in the middle of Mass is the time to school them–I take their hand and offer it up.

 

[twiztedseraph]

Well we had a Bishop and an orthodox Priest start it at our Parish and the fact that its tolerated by the Vatican, I will hold hands at my Parish and I enjoy doing so.

 

[HagiaSophia]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

How sad is it that people do not want the physical contact of others? How about the violation of other’s space?.

Precisely. I’ve always wondered why it is that touchy,grab has to considered “friendly” anyway.

I loved Jimmy Akin’s description:

'know how people in many parishes can’t seem to keep their hands to themselves during the Our Father?

In many parishes they get grabby and, though in American culture holding hands with another person is a gesture of intimacy (sweethearts do it, spouses do it, parents and children do it, complete strangers do not do it), suddenly the person next to you wants to engage in the gesture with you, a complete stranger.

In my own case, I solve this problem by clasping my hands in front of me and closing my eyes. 99.99% of the time that takes care of the issue, though I did once experience an elderly woman using her fingers to pluck at my elbow in an attempt to pierce through my obviously meditative attitude and get me to Conform to the handholding she wanted to inflict on me.

Needless to say, a lot of folks find this (unauthorized) grabbiness disturbing, and there has been perplexity at the episcopal level concerning what to do about it.

In come some helpful liturgists, who have suggested that instead of holding hands, people imitate the priest, who happens to be in the orans position at this moment, with his hands outstretched in prayer.

This has the advantage of not automatically inflicting hand-to-hand contact on the people next to one in the pew, though in an especially crowded pew it is not a sure recipe for avoiding all bodily contact. (One may experience a whack to the face, or at least the uncomfortable experience of becoming visually acquainted with the back of a stranger’s hand better than you know your own.)

One detects in the liturgists’ suggestion a further motive besides avoiding excessive touchy-feeliness (particularly since liturgists have themselves been excessively touchy-feely in recent years). Could it be . . . a desire to get the laity to imitate the priest and thus further blur the lines between the two?

“Oh, surely not!” you’re saying. “Liturgical planners have been scrupulous since the reform of the liturgy about making sure the roles of priest and laity are at all times clearly distinguished. Just ask them! They’ll tell you!”

However that may be, the Holy See has been concerned about the laity unduly aping the priest at Mass, and in the 1997 Instruction on Collaboration, an unprecedented conjunction of Vatican dicasteries wrote:

6 § 2. To promote the proper identity (of various roles) in this area, those abuses which are contrary to the provisions of canon 907 * are to be eradicated. In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity.

This instruction, incidentally, was approved by John Paul II in forma specifica, meaning that the pope invested it with his own authority and is binding on us with the pope’s authority and not merely the authority of the authoring congregations.

jimmyakin.org/2005/06/ed_peters_has_a.html*

 

[netmilsmom]

HagiaSophia:

jimmyakin.org/2005/06/ed_peters_has_a.html

That is one fantastic reference!

the problem is that over the last 40+ years our parishes have gone with an “I feel” attitude.
“I feel” that because we say “Our” we should be holding hands.
“i feel” that because we say “we lift them up to the Lord” we should be acting that out.
“I feel” that because I am standing to receive Our Lord, everyone should do it too.
Ect.

I would love to see this whole thing go the opposite way and have people start laying prostrate on the floor, women covering their heads, Latin and Greek in the liturgy and kneeling for communion.
I think those who now squeal for “Unity” would be protesting how much they don’t “feel” we should be doing any of the above. Not that I think that any of the above should be the absolute norm, but we who want a more traditional Holy Mass are left struggling with the innovations while the DRE’s and Liturgical Committees go with what they “feel”.

I escaped one of these parishes, but as others have stated sometimes there is no where to go. That is a shame. It shouldn’t be all about one preference, but that is what it has become in some places.

 

[netmilsmom]

“We are in Holy Mass to praise Our Lord and honor him, not for fellowship.” I beg to differ…

---

I do not want to argue with you…I just do not understand how you are anyone does not feel comfortable holding hands with fellow Roman Catholics…I just do not think this is how God would have us be towards one another…and by the way Christ is there in Body at the alter. “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.”
John 6:54-55 (NIV)

Perhaps, first of all, you might think about investing in a Catholic Bible…
saintaquinas.com/bible_versions.html
Second, please understand that you are now in a traditionally based religion and not a Biblical one. No where in any of the above quotes does it pertain to the liturgy except in your own mind.
The Bishops themselves have ruled on this particular innovation. If yours is ruling with it, that’s great for you. If not, no matter how much you “feel” it, it’s not appropriate for the liturgy.

Of course, Jesus is Body and Soul in the Eucharist, Not visually.
As I have stated before, if Christ appeared visually on the Altar, I would fall to the ground, knowing I was not worthy to meet his glance. I know very few people who would be grabbing for a stranger’s hand.

You may not understand those who do not want to touch strangers but rather focus on the Eucharist during Holy Mass, but perhaps putting the shoe on the other foot would help. I don’t understand people who do not like spinach, but I don’t look down on nor do I insist that everyone should eat it. It’s really good for you, you know.

 

[iamrefreshed]

I didn’t like holding hands because that was not how I was raised.

Then one day recently, I was at Mass and I sat next to a young man who was mentally handicapped. For some reason, when that young man reached over to me for my hand (a situation I’ve tried to avoid in the past) my mind was changed. I don’t think I’ve ever said the Our Father with more meaning than I did that day.

Just my feeling, right or wrong.

 

[Deus_Vult]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Perhaps, first of all, you might think about investing in a Catholic Bible…
saintaquinas.com/bible_versions.html
Second, please understand that you are now in a traditionally based religion and not a Biblical one. No where in any of the above quotes does it pertain to the liturgy except in your own mind.
The Bishops themselves have ruled on this particular innovation. If yours is ruling with it, that’s great for you. If not, no matter how much you “feel” it, it’s not appropriate for the liturgy.

Of course, Jesus is Body and Soul in the Eucharist, Not visually.
As I have stated before, if Christ appeared visually on the Altar, I would fall to the ground, knowing I was not worthy to meet his glance. I know very few people who would be grabbing for a stranger’s hand.

You may not understand those who do not want to touch strangers but rather focus on the Eucharist during Holy Mass, but perhaps putting the shoe on the other foot would help. I don’t understand people who do not like spinach, but I don’t look down on nor do I insist that everyone should eat it. It’s really good for you, you know.

I actually have several Roman Catholic Bibles…I invested in the NIV because there are so many Protestants on these threads and others I am on that argue about text…I can debate Protestants with or without our Roman Catholic Bible. Since you are Roman Catholic it would have been more appropriate to use the New American Bible…but I do not think my message was lost in my using the NIV as a reference…and yes the scripture does pertain…it references love for one another please explain to me why you consider other members of the Body of Christ strangers? I do not even know you other than this communication but I have love in my heart for all of Gods children holding your hand or any other member of the Body of Christ would not make me uncomfortable. The debate is this…the Vatican has not mandated it is wrong to hold hands during the Our Father…a healthy debate over whether we should or should not is OK as well. I hope the Vatican makes a decision in the near future so there isnt such controversy surrounding it. It really dosent matter either way to me what we do my only point is it shouldnt weird people out to hold hands with other members of the Body of Christ and they shouldnt be strangers to us either…and the scriptures reference fellowship in your earlier message you stated that we dont go to Mass for fellowship…my intent was to show otherwise. I am quite sure fellowship is part of the Mass…am I wrong?

 

[netmilsmom]

Deus Vult:

.and yes the scripture does pertain…it references love for one another please explain to me why you consider other members of the Body of Christ strangers? I do not even know you other than this communication but I have love in my heart for all of Gods children holding your hand or any other member of the Body of Christ would not make me uncomfortable.

1. I have explained to you many times that it is a cultural thing. We as Americans do not hold hands with people outside our families. I for one, feel that it is an intimate thing reserved for my nuclear family so as not to lessen their importance.
2. The focus of the liturgy is vertical not horizontal. Many documents from the Vatican state that. If you would like more information on these documents, Google can help you out. I am packing to leave on vacation and don’t really have the time to do your research.
3. Again, it is crass of you to insinuate that those of us who are uncomfortable with physically touching a stranger do not hold Christian love in our hearts. Other members of the Body of Christ ARE strangers. We may have things in common and all spiritually join as one in Holy Mass but we are creatures of our physical bodies. Why don’t we have the “mouth kiss” of peace? Some things are intimate and should be kept that way.

The debate is this…the Vatican has not mandated it is wrong to hold hands during the Our Father

Unless you are currently living in Vatican City, you have a Bishop who is setting the norms for your Diocese. That Bishop has the right to rule on anything that the Vatican has not given a clear message about. If you are in St. Louis or Charlotte, even Cleveland, the Vatican being vague on the issue matters not. Your Bishop has made a statement.

It really dosent matter either way to me what we do my only point is it shouldnt weird people out to hold hands with other members of the Body of Christ and they shouldnt be strangers to us either

Why, because you say so?
I think that everyone should eat Spinach.

…and the scriptures reference fellowship in your earlier message you stated that we dont go to Mass for fellowship…my intent was to show otherwise. I am quite sure fellowship is part of the Mass…am I wrong?

Nope, you are right. It’s called the Handshake of Peace. If Fellowship is the focus of the mass, why don’t you hold hands all the way through?

 

[Deus_Vult]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Perhaps, first of all, you might think about investing in a Catholic Bible…
QUOTE]

Here you go…better?

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Mat 18:20 (NAB)

The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common. Acts 4:32 (NAB)

3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; for our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We are writing this so that our joy may be complete. 1 John 3-4 (NAB)

12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and forgiving one another, if one has a grievance against another; as the Lord has forgiven you, so must you also do. 14 And over all these put on love, that is, the bond of perfection. 15 And let the peace of Christ control your hearts, the peace into which you were also called in one body. And be thankful. Col 3:12-15 (NAB)

34 I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. 35 This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:34-35 (NAB)

38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 The second is like it:You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments." Mat:22 38-40 (NAB)

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. John 6:54-55 (NAB)

 

[netmilsmom]

Deus Vult:

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Perhaps, first of all, you might think about investing in a Catholic Bible…
QUOTE]

Here you go…better?

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Mat 18:20 (NAB)

The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common. Acts 4:32 (NAB)

3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim now to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; for our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We are writing this so that our joy may be complete. 1 John 3-4 (NAB)

12 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience, 13 bearing with one another and forgiving one another, if one has a grievance against another; as the Lord has forgiven you, so must you also do. 14 And over all these put on love, that is, the bond of perfection. 15 And let the peace of Christ control your hearts, the peace into which you were also called in one body. And be thankful. Col 3:12-15 (NAB)

34 I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. 35 This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:34-35 (NAB)

38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 The second is like it:You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments." Mat:22 38-40 (NAB)

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. John 6:54-55 (NAB)

Show me anywhere in all those quotes that says that fellowship and love equal physically touching someone.

Here are two ways for you to understand this concept…
I have a friend who is Quadrapelgic. He cannot physically touch his wife or children any more. Does he love them? Does he have a fellowship with them? Not by your standards.

I love to watch Hayao Miayaki movies. They are in Japanese. I believe that everyone should watch these movie in the original language as they were made. However, if I want to have someone watch and enjoy these movies, I have to concede to their comfort level and reading subtitles is not it. Otherwise they won’t care for them at all. This is like the Spinach analogy. Just because you like it, does not make it good or right.

 

[Deus_Vult]

1. I have explained to you many times that it is a cultural thing. We as Americans do not hold hands with people outside our families. I for one, feel that it is an intimate thing reserved for my nuclear family so as not to lessen their importance.
2. The focus of the liturgy is vertical not horizontal. Many documents from the Vatican state that. If you would like more information on these documents, Google can help you out. I am packing to leave on vacation and don’t really have the time to do your research.
3. Again, it is crass of you to insinuate that those of us who are uncomfortable with physically touching a stranger do not hold Christian love in our hearts. Other members of the Body of Christ ARE strangers. We may have things in common and all spiritually join as one in Holy Mass but we are creatures of our physical bodies. Why don’t we have the “mouth kiss” of peace? Some things are intimate and should be kept that way.

Unless you are currently living in Vatican City, you have a Bishop who is setting the norms for your Diocese. That Bishop has the right to rule on anything that the Vatican has not given a clear message about. If you are in St. Louis or Charlotte, even Cleveland, the Vatican being vague on the issue matters not. Your Bishop has made a statement.

Why, because you say so?
I think that everyone should eat Spinach.

Nope, you are right. It’s called the Handshake of Peace. If Fellowship is the focus of the mass, why don’t you hold hands all the way through?

Well first I hope you have a great vacation and safe travels my prayers are with you and your family…may God Bless.

Maybe you are right it is a cultural thing but its not an American cultural thing maybe regional…In Texas we hug each other as a greeting or good bye. I have had people I work with from other states come here and have commented on this…that is strange to them. I will concede…there may be some validity to what you say…but what if the Vatican decides this is what we should do will you still feel it is weird…thats really my whole point it shouldnt be. I still have trouble with the other members of the Body of Christ being strangers…of course I wouldnt just trust my children with just anyone who attends my parish that would be crazy…but I would welcome any of them into my home to get to know them…is that crazy. Have you ever heard of “Feast and Family” I dont know if this is regional but my parish gets families together for dinners in each others homes usually four to six families at a time to get to know one another…and yes we hug each other when we part. We have gotten to be pretty good friends with many families we have met this way. I never wished to argue with you only to understand your feelings and hopefully you get to know mine. I must go know myself…

 

[OhioBob]

Deus Vult:

…I do not want to argue with you…I just do not understand how you are anyone does not feel comfortable holding hands with fellow Roman Catholics…

Speaking only for myself of course, but I don’t think that those of us who prefer not getting all touchy-feely during the Mass feel that way because we are not “comfortable holding hands with fellow Roman Catholics”. That really is not the point at all. I have not problem holding hands with folks. I just prefer not to do it AT MASS.

If as Catholics believe, the Holy sacrifice of the Mass is the celebration of the Eucharist, the representation of the once for all sacrifice of Christ, “the source and summit” of Christian worship, then that is what it should be. We shouldn’t try to turn it into a chummy kumbaya hugfest so we can all feel good about ourselves and our neighbors and prove how “friendly” we are.

Fellowship is great. I’m all for it. Hold my hand, hug me, whatever. I may blush but I won’t cringe. Knock yourself out. But AT MASS, I would prefer to focus on worshiping God in his Word and in his real presence. If that makes me seem un-neighborly, I apologize.

I’ll be glad to give you a hug after Mass. Promise.

 

[Servulus]

What are we doing with our hands the rest of the time? Why is this particular forty seconds so important?