Do you hold hands during the Our Father?

[InnocentIII]

Steps used in creating and using a straw man argument:

Step 1: Build the Straw Man: “Evolution is false! How could a mouse evolve into an elephant!?”
Step 2: Knock down the Straw Man by any means necessary: “How could a mouse evolve into an elephant? There would have to be billions of changes for that to occur, and nobody has ever seen speciation anyway!”

Step 3: Connect the original position to the Straw Man:“So it’s silly…who has ever seen a mouse evolve into an elephant? Nobody!!”

Step 4: Claim to negate the opposing position by the connection in 3. “Therefore, evolution must be false!”

This is not at all what the question, “Why not hold hands at the Creed?” is about.

The question remains, why those particular 40 seconds to hold hands?

Now, if you need an example of something being done which no one has stopped, do a search for the Dogs in the Mass thread. It is being done, and no one has stopped it. By your reasoning it is licit as well.

I find myself in complete agreement here. Over my fifty years as a catholic stretching back to pre Vatican II I can recall all the changes introduced and being told that it won’t lead to any further changes … till it did. Once you shift te line you find it that much harder to not shift it next time around.

On holding hands … our parish is blessedly spared this. but I have experienced it. In general i do not find it at all a unifying experience. I also sometime wonder if people do it from conviction or just because someone else started it. We have a small but noticeable group of charismatics in our parish who always adopt the orans for the lords prayer. The other Sunday i noteced quite by chance one of them doing it duirng the creed. Intrigued I kept a corner of my eye on her and noticed that sha did this every time she spoke - including while singing the hymns. It appears to me (though i may be wrong) that much of it is about “being involved” or at least feeling as though you are participating. If so then it is a sad commentary on our present faith that we feel the need for this reinforcement.

 

[netmilsmom]

InnocentIII:

I find myself in complete agreement here. Over my fifty years as a catholic stretching back to pre Vatican II I can recall all the changes introduced and being told that it won’t lead to any further changes … till it did. Once you shift te line you find it that much harder to not shift it next time around.

On holding hands … our parish is blessedly spared this. but I have experienced it. In general i do not find it at all a unifying experience. I also sometime wonder if people do it from conviction or just because someone else started it. We have a small but noticeable group of charismatics in our parish who always adopt the orans for the lords prayer. The other Sunday i noteced quite by chance one of them doing it duirng the creed. Intrigued I kept a corner of my eye on her and noticed that sha did this every time she spoke - including while singing the hymns. It appears to me (though i may be wrong) that much of it is about “being involved” or at least feeling as though you are participating. If so then it is a sad commentary on our present faith that we feel the need for this reinforcement.

Pitifully, to some an inovation is only an inovation if “I” don’t do it.
Same with an abuse.

 

[Searching13]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

It’s not hearsay if the Bishop who said it repeats it to you. That is why I say talk to your Bishop. However when a Pastor says it, he was not in the USCCB meetings so it is hearsay…

Actually I was responding to this statement

And another problem is that somethings are said, and somethings are spoken about. Unless you are speaking to a Bishop, you are not going to hear the spoken about.

You expressed doubt in Deacon Ed’s interpretations and explanations. Deacon Ed’s credentials could be easily verified, (especially by some one with the connections that you and Mosher have) You expect people to accept the statements which you say were made by bishops and others “in the know” We could not even verify the priviledged information, nevermind you or mosher. Anyone can claim anything. I do happen to know many Church officials, but I know this cannot be verified, so I do not claim private information as a valid point.

But back to your point–All your arguments of privledged information or your interpretation are invalid in a legitimate discussion. Only points which can be verified are valid. If the Bishop has not made an official statement, it cannot be verified.

However when a Pastor says it, he was not in the USCCB meetings so it is hearsay…

And what is it, if you or mosher say it?

 

[netmilsmom]

Go to the Diocese of Steubenville’s website.
You will see Bishop Emeritus Gilbert Sheldon.

Do a Google Search on the web and look at his family.
He had twelve brothers and sisters.

You may write to him and ask him what his oldest sister’s maiden name and married name was.

When you get the answers private mail me and I will tell you what they are, as I do not feel it is prudent to reveal any names here.
You will find that his last name, his sister’s maiden name are not the same because he changed it when becoming a priest.

His sister was my mother.

There is no where that I questioned Deacon Ed’s credentials. I did ask him for references to the information he sited. If one is going to give information it is also prudent to site from where one gets it.

 

[Searching13]

Please understand,

There is no way you can prove anything this Bishop said in private conversation, or that you are his neice.

Please restrict your comments to remarks which can be verified.

And even if you could prove that you are quoting this Bishop, there are other Bishops who have given other interpretations.

 

[Searching13]

PS But thank you for the permission to write to him. I think I will ask him about your use of the “pearl/swine” scripture.

 

[Searching13]

pps

There is no where that I questioned Deacon Ed’s credentials

I never said you did.

I said

You expressed doubt in Deacon Ed’s interpretations and explanations

I’ll try again. You expect us to accept your interpretations and private conversations, but you doubt Deacon Ed’s interpretations and explanations. (which should be far more acceptable considering his verifiable credentials.)

 

[MrS]

Searching13:

Deacon Ed’s interpretations and explanations. (which should be far more acceptable considering his verifiable credentials.)

For crying out loud… he is a deacon in two rites. Period. He also seems like a nice man, and a sincere man. I say that without verifying that he is.

So what makes him far more acceptable… perhaps only that you happen to agree with some of what he posts.

What are your thoughts on Dr. Ed Peters… a verifiable canon lawyer with lots of credentials? His letter is one of the few informative additions to this post.

Their is a chain of command in all this… Rome is at the top, you (and I) are at the bottom. If a link is broken or missing, your opinion is reduced to just that… opinion.http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_7_6.gif

ooops, it should say united we kneel

 

[john1961]

where does it say in the girm not to hold hands

 

[netmilsmom]

Searching13:

Please understand,

There is no way you can prove anything this Bishop said in private conversation, or that you are his neice.

Please restrict your comments to remarks which can be verified.

And even if you could prove that you are quoting this Bishop, there are other Bishops who have given other interpretations

PS But thank you for the permission to write to him. I think I will ask him about your use of the “pearl/swine” scripture.

Of course there are other Bishops with other interpertations. Which is why I always say, ask your Bishop.
You never needed my permission, he is a public figure! And Answers.com was the reference I gave to the “pearls before swine” biblical quote. It is valid as a reference.
If you choose not to verify this, that is your option. However, the offer still stands to anyone who would like to verify my Uncle’s connection to me.

 

[netmilsmom]

john1961:

where does it say in the girm not to hold hands

It doesn’t.
Check with your Bishop as to whether or not the innovation is being encouraged in your Diocese.

Please understand that the GIRM tells you what you should do and not what you should not.

 

[MrS]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

It doesn’t.
Check with your Bishop as to whether or not the innovation is being encouraged in your Diocese.

Please understand that the GIRM tells you what you should do and not what you should not.

:yup::yup::yup: … abuse is also applicable because it is the stardard process to create a “norm”

 

[netmilsmom]

:yup::yup::yup: … abuse is also applicable because it is the stardard process to create a “norm”

You may be right, but you know it will be “Pile on Netmil(name removed by moderator)” time if I use the big “A” word about this posture.

 

[john1961]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

It doesn’t.
Check with your Bishop as to whether or not the innovation is being encouraged in your Diocese.

Please understand that the GIRM tells you what you should do and not what you should not.

So from Diocese to Diocese its different? Thats kinda crazy don’t u thing can’t we all be on the same page

 

[Searching13]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Of course there are other Bishops with other interpertations. Which is why I always say, ask your Bishop.
You never needed my permission, he is a public figure! And Answers.com was the reference I gave to the “pearls before swine” biblical quote. It is valid as a reference.
If you choose not to verify this, that is your option. However, the offer still stands to anyone who would like to verify my Uncle’s connection to me.

Please try to understand that your relationship to this Bishop has nothing at all to do with this discussion. There is no way you can prove any private conversation with anyone, no matter who he is.

And your use of the pearls/swine quote as an insult to me, had nothing at all to do with any valid scriptural interpretation. I quoted the footnotes from the New American Bible, and you had no idea what it meant.

The pearls are the gospel, and the swine are those of no faith.

Neither had any bearing on the discussion. Jesus would never insult anyone over a minor matter such as the posture of the congregation during Mass.

 

[netmilsmom]

Searching13:

pps

You know what, I think it would be a good idea to agree we disagree.

I’m watching the news and all the massive destruction in the wake of Katrina. Your opinion of me, or Mosher or MrS or anyone else here looks totally insignificant compared to the horrors I’m seeing.
I discuss here, in hopes of speaking to like minds. To those poor Catholics who have been long suffering, in parishes where innovators and abusers have hijacked the liturgy and pushed the envelope.

They deserve a voice and if you want to continue to belittle the things I say, that is your right. But it really doesn’t matter at all.

But I have bigger things to pray about right now and it’s not you.
(unless you are in the path of the storm of course)

 

[netmilsmom]

john1961:

So from Diocese to Diocese its different? Thats kinda crazy don’t u thing can’t we all be on the same page

It should be, my friend, but it isn’t.
Look at this thread. People push the envelope and see what they can get away with.
If you are in LA with Mahoney, it’s encouraged.
If you are in Cleveland, St. Louis or Charlotte, it is discouraged.
Best to check with your own Diocese.

We all wish it could be plain but it isn’t.

 

[Searching13]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

You may be right, but you know it will be “Pile on Netmil(name removed by moderator)” time if I use the big “A” word about this posture.

It is not “Pile on Netmil(name removed by moderator)” . It is “time to call N on stating her opinion as a liturgical instruction.”

 

[netmilsmom]

Searching13:

It is not “Pile on Netmil(name removed by moderator)” . It is “time to call N on stating her opinion as a liturgical instruction.”

That’s it! The pile on has officially started…

 

[Lalia_Mackay]

The charity level is diminishing here, this thread is now closed. Thanks to those who have participated in this discussion.