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NeuralMonk
Guest
Exactly… now there is a very real and relevant question. He who can answer that question must have ultimate truth. 
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Exactly… now there is a very real and relevant question. He who can answer that question must have ultimate truth.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
The Truth is found in the Catholic Church and Her sacraments. 
All questions and facts must submit to this one statement. Once that is learned and believed the search for how a bicycle is made is of little consequence. Which is why all other truths fail. Including nihilism.
To my earlier point, the young unmarried man who is in college and has his I pod stolen has not been shaken in his nihilistic beliefs. He can still make sense of the world in his beliefs. But the parent of a child cut in half by an islamic sword, or the child itself or the woman who has been violently raped and is in a recovery center has no logical nihilistic thoughts. That is when it falls apart. What you do see a lot of in the face of real injustice, crime or tragedy is not people saying all is nothing, but rather finding faith.
This is why you do not see a mother driving her 10 kids to a soccer game talk about nihilism, because it is not real, it is false and it makes no sense to the majority of the world.
This philosophical idea is a luxury of the privileged, of those who do not know pain or hope or love. It is a product of a selfish and lonely existence. Once that is removed (by real life) the ideology fades. But not the Truth, the Truth only grows.
The Truth is not only simple it is knowable to anyone. It is found in the Church Herself. It need be no more complicated than that.
All questions and facts must submit to this one statement. Once that is learned and believed the search for how a bicycle is made is of little consequence. Which is why all other truths fail. Including nihilism.To my earlier point, the young unmarried man who is in college and has his I pod stolen has not been shaken in his nihilistic beliefs. He can still make sense of the world in his beliefs. But the parent of a child cut in half by an islamic sword, or the child itself or the woman who has been violently raped and is in a recovery center has no logical nihilistic thoughts. That is when it falls apart. What you do see a lot of in the face of real injustice, crime or tragedy is not people saying all is nothing, but rather finding faith.
This is why you do not see a mother driving her 10 kids to a soccer game talk about nihilism, because it is not real, it is false and it makes no sense to the majority of the world.
This philosophical idea is a luxury of the privileged, of those who do not know pain or hope or love. It is a product of a selfish and lonely existence. Once that is removed (by real life) the ideology fades. But not the Truth, the Truth only grows.
The Truth is not only simple it is knowable to anyone. It is found in the Church Herself.
It need be no more complicated than that.
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NeuralMonk
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Um… Catechism 2465 The Old Testament attests that God is the source of all truth.The Truth is found in the Catholic Church and Her sacraments.
To my earlier point, the young unmarried man who is in college and has his I pod stolen has not been shaken in his nihilistic beliefs. He can still make sense of the world in his beliefs. But the parent of a child cut in half by an islamic sword, or the child itself or the woman who has been violently raped and is in a recovery center has no logical nihilistic thoughts. That is when it falls apart. What you do see a lot of in the face of real injustice, crime or tragedy is not people saying all is nothing, but rather finding faith.
This is why you do not see a mother driving her 10 kids to a soccer game talk about nihilism, because it is not real, it is false and it makes no sense to the majority of the world.
This philosophical idea is a luxury of the privileged, of those who do not know pain or hope or love. It is a product of a selfish and lonely existence. Once that is removed (by real life) the ideology fades. But not the Truth, the Truth only grows.
The Truth is not only simple it is knowable to anyone. It is found in the Church Herself.
So if truth is found in the Church. And the Church says truth is in God. Does that make the Church = God? I think not.
If truth were so easy, why does the Church dedicate a whole section in the catechism to truth. PART THREE : SECTION TWO : CHAPTER TWO : ARTICLE 8 Especially the sections on offenses against the truth.
I can “live in truth” which is to live a life honoring to God, but that does not confer that I posses all truth of God. That would be dishonest. It would be saying I am Jesus. While I live in Him and He in me, I cannot say I am fully equivalent to Him. If that were the case, there is no need for purgatory.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
You are encapsulating the stereotypes of philosophical types.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
“I am…the truth.” – Jesus of Nazareth (ca. AD 30)
Is the Truth in the Church? He sure is.
Is the Church in the Truth. By our baptisms, we are.
Do we know the Truth fully?
1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Is the Truth in the Church? He sure is.
Is the Church in the Truth. By our baptisms, we are.
Do we know the Truth fully?
1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
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NeuralMonk
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The Church is not the Truth. ref Jesus
Baptism doesn’t place the Church in the Truth. It places the members in the Church.
1 Cor 13:12 Agreed. God’s full truth is not yet my truth.
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Randy_Carson
Guest
We are the Church.
We are baptized into Christ.
Christ is the Truth.
Therefore, the Church is in the Truth.
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RGCheek
Guest
Glad you said it. Wouldn’t come well from me.
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NeuralMonk
Guest
I will fix your short statements:
We are baptized into Christ’s sacrifice, which makes us members of the Church.
We are members of the Church, but each member is not the Church as a whole.
Christ is THE truth.
However to say the Church is in the Truth is contrary to the catechism. The Church is the keeper of REVEALED revelation and derives truth statements based on these into a hierarchy of truth.
91 All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them and guides them into all truth.
So to say you have all truth would be that you have arrived at the end of the truth journey. The Holy Spirit has no need to show you any more.
So I stand by my claim.
You have your truth
I have my truth
God has his truth.
My goal is to make God’s truth my truth.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Do you know how that sounds?I
You have your truth
I have my truth
God has his truth.
My goal is to make God’s truth my truth.
There is one Truth. Period. And the fulness of the Truth lies in the Catholic Church. This is stated in the Catechism and in other areas. There is not my truth your truth AND God’s Truth. There is only Truth. You are sounding a tad like Pilate…
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NeuralMonk
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Do you know how it sounds to say “I have all truth”? Ouch. To claim you have exclusive purview in to all truth to the equality of God?
The church does NOT claim to have the fulness of Truth. It claims to have all REVEALED truth. “Now we see through a glass darkly, but when HE is revealed, we shall be like HIM for we shall see HIM as HE is.”
Pilate questioned the existence of truth. I know that truth exists. I am seeking to know that truth more each day.
To say that your truth and my truth are in alignment is also fallacious. I know some things you don’t. You know some things I don’t.
Be very careful about claiming to contain all truth within yourself. It makes you either highly deceived or a liar.
What you are assuming is that I am saying truth is relative. Truth is fixed in the fullness of Jesus, but I… as of this message… have not attained to that level of truth.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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:banghead: I think you like to argue.
I am not interested in pursuing this further. What fruit will come of it?
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Randy_Carson
Guest
I never said that the Church has ALL truth. I say that the Catholic Church has all REVEALED truth. That’s a small “t”. There’s more that we do not know and some that may not be revealed until the Church Militant and Church Suffering join the Church Triumphant in heaven.
I also say that the Church is “in” Christ who is the Truth. Capital “T” by virtue of every member being individually baptized into Christ.
If every member of a football team is in the locker room, then the team is in the locker room.
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Randy_Carson
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Where has this been said?
Or is that you have misunderstood or made an assumption about something else that was said?
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NeuralMonk
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No, just the antithesis of what I stated.
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NeuralMonk
Guest
As an Italian, I get that. The same can be said of rabbi’s at yeshivas. Sometimes understanding topics require two pieces of iron to rub against each other until both become sharp.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Or dull. Have a nice day
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RGCheek
Guest
Reread this thread and no one has claimed that. You say elsewhere that you are only stating the antithesis of what you are asserting, but in a discussion that is called a ‘Straw Man’.
God’s mind is infinite and ours is not and so we cannot know ALL Truth, but can only progress toward it.
More specifically the church claims to have all of God’s Truth that God has decided we need at the current time. In the 12th century the church did not yet know that slavery was evil and it was accommodated, but by the 20th century this was incrementally revealed through the Magisterium and now we know.
Even after we die and go to stand in the divine presence of God Himself, we will not understand all Truth, but we will have enough to know what we need to do at that point in time and praise Him for it.
As are we all.
If you are obeying God and His Church then you are sufficiently aligned in knowledge and purpose for what God desires of us.
It is not expected for all members of any football team to have 100% agreement and alignment in purpose. But they do at least have to know the plays and execute those plays when called. Who cares if the QB has a different take on Jackson Pollock? As long as he knows the play called and knows who to throw the ball to that is sufficient.
But he didn’t, so why bring that up? It’s like you want to argue with a caricature of a Roman Catholic instead of the genuine article.
Your angle of approach makes it easy to think you are arguing for relative Truth, because post-modernists make similar arguments.
They claim that since we cannot have a 100% perfect grasp of objective truth that makes such pursuit pointless and a waste of time. So each person merely promotes their understanding of Truth which is a compilation of things accepted from many venues other than strict science, and so all personal perceptions of Truth are as flawed as the next.
To shoot down or disprove an assertion, it is not required from a post-modernist perspective to disprove an assertion but to only show that it is ‘controversial’ in someone else’s view and that makes the original assertion without objective value. Similarly a thing that is rejected as false by a person does not need to be proven true, but only that someone else thinks it is true, and that negates an objective denial of the false assertion.
In effect post-modernism rejects a true-false dichotomy as effectively meaningless, and the same thing applies to other dichotomies of beauty-ugly, good-evil, etc. There is nothing that is true or good or beautiful to these people and they attack any majoritarian assertions that something does fall into such categories of things.
Your posts sound very post-modernist and I don’t think anyone can be faulted for thinking that you then are asserting that there is no truth, when it seems to be valid to observe that instead you just don’t think that Truth is completely obtainable and then draw from that that it is therefore meaningless to assert anything as true objectively. And the lastter is nihilistic and erroneous as I understand it.
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grotto
Guest
I know I can choose. I choose to believe in Our Lord Jesus Christ. I know there is much I do not know, but I know the One Who Knows All through Jesus Christ and keeps me believing as long as I choose Him (The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit). Its simple but its not easy unless you choose to believe. This is what brings you Truth eternal.
Go ahead - take your best shot!
Go ahead - take your best shot!
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Midwest88
Guest
Then by that line of reasoning your truth isn’t actual “truth” which goes for all other “truths.” If red is red, then it is red, not blue, not pink not yellow. If red is blue, pink and yellow then it is not red. It is something else, so call it something else, but don’t call it red.You have your truth
I have my truth
God has his truth.
My goal is to make God’s truth my truth.
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