Do you know for sure

[Spider-man]

I’ve heard the guys on catholic answers live talk about these questions before. I used to be involved in Evangelism Explosion, a ministry founded by D. James Kennedy. Basically, it teaches folks to share the gospel. I was a trainer, teaching people to share the gospel, and I traveled to Australia to help lead a week-long clinic in Brisbane to teach some members of a church there. These questions are not intended to catch anyone off guard…they’re just diagnostic questions to kind of get an idea what folks are thinking.

I am new to this forum, and am just curious what folks here would answer to these.

Do you know for sure that you are going to be with God in Heaven?

and

If God were to ask you, “Why should I let you into My Heaven?” what would you say?

 

[squirt]

answer 1: No, but He knows for certain whether or not I will be there some day.

answer 2 (likely from purgatory): My ideas regarding what you should do don’t matter. What I think You should do is of no importance. It’s up to You. If You think I’m ready, I’d be happy to enter.

 

[Dr.Colossus]

Spider-man:

I am new to this forum, and am just curious what folks here would answer to these.

Do you know for sure that you are going to be with God in Heaven?

and

If God were to ask you, “Why should I let you into My Heaven?” what would you say?

1.) If I died today, I believe with complete faith that I will receive eternal salvation. This does not mean of course that there wouldn’t be a possible pitstop in purgatory, but the main thrust of this question isn’t theological debate, but rather, “are you sure you wouldn’t go to hell.” As a protestant, your criteria should convince you that we would go to Heaven, as Romans 10:9 says that anyone who confesses God with lips and believes in his heart will be saved. Every practicing Catholic in the world says the following at Mass “We believe in one God, the Father…His only Son…[and] the Holy Spirit”. I think that should pretty much qualify

However, as for our own belief in assurance of salvation? We believe that

:bible1: “There is such a thing as deadly sin” 1 John 5:16

Committing such sins take us out of a state of Grace, requiring God’s forgiveness (through the sacrament of Reconciliation) to return to His Grace. However, so long as we know that we are in that state of Grace, we can hope in our salvation. We never say we are absolutely sure, however, for St. Paul tells us

:bible1: “I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.” 1 Corintians 4:4

2.) If I were to be asked by God why I should enter His Heaven, I hope I would be able to say “My lord, during my life you led me to You, and I have since that point endeavored to serve you as best I could. But I can give You no reason that You do not already know. O my Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner. Thy will be done.”

 

[beng]

Spider-man:

Do you know for sure that you are going to be with God in Heaven?

No.

Anyone who answer “yes” will be anathemized.

If God were to ask you, “Why should I let you into My Heaven?” what would you say?

Because You brought me here.

 

[Spider-man]

beng:

No.

Anyone who answer “yes” will be anathemized.

Because You brought me here.

I wasn’t going to respond for awhile…as I wanted to see a bunch of the responses first…but beng just brings it out of me.

Hmm…so the apostle John should be anathemized?

1 John 5:13: "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. "

Apparently, John was saying it is possible to know for sure.

 

[beng]

Spider-man:

I wasn’t going to respond for awhile…as I wanted to see a bunch of the responses first…but beng just brings it out of me.

Hmm…so the apostle John should be anathemized?

1 John 5:13: "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. "

Apparently, John was saying it is possible to know for sure.

When someone sinned, does he really believe FULLY in the name of Son of God?

 

[Aragorn]

Jeff Cavins once provided an answer to that question if posed, and I tend to agree with it, it goes something like this: “We enter heaven strictly by the grace of Jesus Christ, and currently I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling”.

This answer poses no garuntees, but asserts if I am in the state of grace when I die, I will not go to hell.

What do you think?

 

[gomer_tree]

It is possible to know at a given moment, thanks to the promises of God. If I just made a good, contrite, confession and received absolution, and was struck dead on the spot, then I think it is OK for a Catholic to say that he/she knows at that moment they are “saved.”

But I do not know how I am going to spend my next moment. Or the moment after that. And so on. I may have no intention of sinning, and something may happen in my life that I could never expect, and I could respond in such a manner that I sin gravely. Therefore, I have no assurance of salvation for the rest of my life, even if there is a relative assurance now.

And, as pointed out, Paul’s words should certainly give pause to anyone who dares suggest that they have judged themselves righteous enough to go to heaven. It simply is not for us to say.

 

[Richard_Lamb]

I am equaly sure that if in the end I reject him I will spend eternity in hell.

 

[Salmon]

Spidey:

Do you know for sure that you are going to be with God in Heaven?

Jeremiah expressed it, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?” (Jer. 17:9).

Why rely on such a corrupt gauge as an unreliable heart?

Dr. Colossus’ quote of Paul stands tall on this question, but perhaps one should include the preceeding verse:
1 Cor 4:3-5

3 But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself.

Paul is saying quite clearly that it’s a waste of time to desire ANY human judgment on this issue.

On what day can you say that it is unnecessary to pick up your cross and follow Christ because you have performed sufficient labor and the job is complete?

If our salvation is guaranteed at any point in time, then we can always discard that theological virtue of “hope”, since the guarantee makes “hope” unnecessary.

Peace in Christ…Salmon

 

[Calvin]

Salmon:

If our salvation is guaranteed at any point in time, then we can always discard that theological virtue of “hope”, since the guarantee makes “hope” unnecessary.

That is not true. We hope for the fulfillment of the promise. St. Paul himself writes that he “prefers to depart and be with Christ” (Phil 1:23) because he knows his salvation is assured. Why would he prefer to depart if he was unsure of his salvation?

Dr. Colossus quotes St. Paul out of context in 1 Cor 4 (although our answers for question 2 would be the same). You point to the preceding verse but the following verse is interesting: “Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.” It seems that St. Paul is sure that praise is awaiting him (and others) not the potential for condemnation.

Indeed St. Paul is very instructive on this score. In 2 Tim 4:7-8 he writes: “I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith. From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me…” That sure doesn’t sound like the one poster who wrote about being in a state of grace after confession but unsure if he would sin (and risk hell) in the future. St. Paul seems to know that his salvation is assured.

As interested as I am in Catholicism, I’m still thoroughly Protestant on this one. I don’t see why it is not in keeping with the faith once imparted to affirm assurance and deadly sin. I could, indeed, choose against Christ on my last day and risk the fires of hell but, let’s not forget, that I work out my salvation with fear and trembling for it is he that works through me. As my favorite doxology (I cry when I read it) from Jude says: “Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.”

With St. Jude, I trust that Christ, in His mercy, is able to keep me from stumbling and present me blameless and with great joy in the presence of God.

Feel free to anathamize me.

-C

 

[joshua1]

I have thought hard about this question. When God asks me why he should let me into heaven, I guess my reply is that he shouldnt because I have done nothing to deserve heaven. When I think of how many times I have failed him its hard to see. But thats the human way of looking at things. God is patient, kind and slow to anger. Its through God’s great love and mercy that any of us will make it to heaven. Another thought comes to mind in that I think alot of what Jesus will ask us is not what we did , but what we didnt do.

If you did not do it to the least of these my brothers, you have not done it unto me.

PAX CHRISTI

 

[germys9]

Spider-man:

I wasn’t going to respond for awhile…as I wanted to see a bunch of the responses first…but beng just brings it out of me.

Hmm…so the apostle John should be anathemized?

1 John 5:13: "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. "

Apparently, John was saying it is possible to know for sure.

I wouldn’t be so quick to take one passage and say you know for sure exactly what John was trying to tell his readers. The same John, whom you are quoting, also wrote quoting Jesus: (John 15:5-6) “I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.”

As a catholic, I can have a very deep confidence in knowing I will make it to heaven, but I will never say that I know 100% percent that I’m going straight to heaven no questions asked. Jesus makes it very clear in the gospels that it is possible to lose your salvation if you don’t remain in him. This passage makes absolutely no sense with your theology. Remember he was talking to his disciples who already “believed” in him. Another example is Judas. Seriously think about it. Judas was with Jesus for three years helping in his ministry. He believed in him and definitely had a personal relationship with him, and he still ended up rejecting him.

 

[germys9]

Calvin:

Indeed St. Paul is very instructive on this score. In 2 Tim 4:7-8 he writes: “I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith. From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me…” That sure doesn’t sound like the one poster who wrote about being in a state of grace after confession but unsure if he would sin (and risk hell) in the future. St. Paul seems to know that his salvation is assured.

-C

Read it a little more carefully. I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith. From now on …

How can it be a race if at the beginning you have been awarded the final victory? Notice how he says he has finished the race and he has kept the faith so from then on he is assured. Remember that catholics don’t say no assurance whatsoever. But only after his life of faith and obedience he can say these things. If he was absolutley assured the moment of his conversion on the road to Damascus, this verse makes no sense.

 

[Vincent]

“By the Grace of Christ” to both questions*.

*And no, it’s not necessarily incompatible with the Catholic faith as an answer to question 1, because what’s anathematized is not “being sure” per se, but the claim to know with absolute and infallible certitude, which cannot be prone to error, unless God gives you special revelation concerning this.

Moral certainty: “things are known conjecturally by signs; and thus anyone may know he has grace, when he is conscious of delighting in God, and of despising worldly things, and inasmuch as a man is not conscious of any mortal sin” ( I-II.112.5ST).

 

[Calvin]

germys9:

How can it be a race if at the beginning you have been awarded the final victory? Notice how he says he has finished the race and he has kept the faith so from then on he is assured. Remember that catholics don’t say no assurance whatsoever. But only after his life of faith and obedience he can say these things. If he was absolutley assured the moment of his conversion on the road to Damascus, this verse makes no sense.

Of course it makes sense! St. Paul ends the epistle (a few verses later) with “The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.” How could St. Paul write something like that if he was unsure of his salvation?

Now you are correct that 2 Timothy was written at the end of Paul’s life, but even in his earlier letters he seems sure of the final outcome:

Ephesians 1:4 “…just as (God) chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him…” How can St. Paul say that he will *be *holy and blameless before God if he has no assurance of salvation?

Phillippians 1:6 “For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus…” How can St. Paul say that the good work will be perfected if he has no assurance of salvation?

I realize (I think) that Catholic teaching is not that there is no assurance but the reason I stepped in is because this seemed to be the direction the thread was taking. Surely St. Paul seems to think there is some assurance.

Assurance and a life of faith and works go together. I think the best passage on this is Corinthians 1:22-23: “He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-
if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel…” Notice how that works – we have assurance that we have been reconciled and can know that we will be holy and blameless (one day) but it hinges on our continuing in the faith.

So there is no contradiction of this idea with St. Paul’s Damascas conversion: Jesus had certain things he wanted St. Paul to do before he died (missionary work, epistles to write, tortures to endure, etc.) St. Paul knew what the outcome would be (his letters are full of references) but he also knew that he had to persevere in the faith through the trails and tribulations of his life. That life of faith and obedience was the race he had to run. To say “well I’m going to heaven” and not do anything would be a travesty of the Gospel.

St. Paul asks himself a similar rhetorical question in Romans 6: “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace might increase?” and he answered it “By no means!” Some folks thought that, because of forgiveness, they could sin all they want. Some folks think that a future hope means we have nothing to work for. The answer to both is “by no means!”

Peace,
-C

 

[ralphinal]

Ok, explain this one to me.

St. Paul spoke of saved in the past tense (Rom 8:24 …in hope we were saved; Eph 2:5,8 …by grace you have been saved through faith; 2 Tim 1:9 …he saved us, called us,according to his grace; and Tit 3:5 …he saved us…).

St Paul spoke of being saved in present tense (Phil 2:12…work out your salvation with fear and trembling). St Peter did too (1 Pet 1:9 as you attain the goal of your faith, salvation)

Yet Jesus spoke in the future tense. Look at Matthew 10:22 he who endures to the end will be saved and Matthew 24:13 he who perseveres to teh end will be saved. Mark 8:35 whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. You can see it in Acts 15:11 (we shall be saved), Romans 5:9-10 (we shall be saved), 13:11 (salvation is nearer now then first beleived), 1Cor 3:15 (he will be saved, but only through as fire), 1 Cor 5:5 (deliver man to Satan so his spirit may be saved), and Heb 9:28 (jesus will appear a second time, to bring salvation).

Ok, Have you been saved, are you being saved, or will you be saved? Pick a verse and see? Not all. Jesus died to save us all, but it is not a done deal. God respects our free will too much. Because of that, even though Jesus died to save us all, we can still mess it up with one simple act of sin. I have been saved, I am still working out my salvation, and I hope to one day be saved. Ah, but ralph, you say, what about eternal assurance of salvation? Matthew 7:21 not everyone saying Lord Lord will be saved.

As far as when God asks why should he let me in, I’ll say see your son and his apostles (Rom 2:5-8, 2Cor 5:10, 2 Cor 11:15, 1 Peter 1:17, Rev 20:12-13, Col 3:24-25, Mt 7:21, Mt 19:16-17, Jn 14:21, Rom 2:2-8, Gal 5:4-6, Eph 2:8-10, Phil 2:12-13, James 2:14-42). I beleive and I have acted upon that belief with my works.

 

[Pax]

This all sounds like the “once saved always saved” discussion that we’ve had on a couple of other threads. Once again, I’ll mention that I have personally researched and compiled over sixty New Testament verses that refute the teaching. I will gladly send the file to anyone who requests it.

 

[beng]

“By the Grace of Christ” to both questions*.

*And no, it’s not necessarily incompatible with the Catholic faith as an answer to question 1, because what’s anathematized is not “being sure” per se, but the claim to know with absolute and infallible certitude, which cannot be prone to error, unless God gives you special revelation concerning this.

Moral certainty: “things are known conjecturally by signs; and thus anyone may know he has grace, when he is conscious of delighting in God, and of despising worldly things, and inasmuch as a man is not conscious of any mortal sin” (ST I-II.112.5).

Yeah what he says

These are the appropriate Canons from Trent

CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.

CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.

CANON XV.-If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.

CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

 

[Sirach14]

Spider-man:

I’ve heard the guys on catholic answers live talk about these questions before. I used to be involved in Evangelism Explosion, a ministry founded by D. James Kennedy. Basically, it teaches folks to share the gospel. I was a trainer, teaching people to share the gospel, and I traveled to Australia to help lead a week-long clinic in Brisbane to teach some members of a church there. These questions are not intended to catch anyone off guard…they’re just diagnostic questions to kind of get an idea what folks are thinking.

I am new to this forum, and am just curious what folks here would answer to these.

Do you know for sure that you are going to be with God in Heaven?

and

If God were to ask you, “Why should I let you into My Heaven?” what would you say?

I doubt if God plays 20 questions, and second lets hear how you would answer God’s question.