Do you know for sure

[Poisson]

1 John 5:13: "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. "

Apparently, John was saying it is possible to know for sure.

The word know does not imply an infallible knowledge. I can say “I know it will rain tomorrow because I listened to a weather report” or “I know I will pass a test because I studied hard” If I say I know something it just means I have confidence that something will happen because I have taken steps necessary to aquire that knowledge however circumstances can change, a high pressure system, a trick question, I turn my back on God.

 

[germys9]

Calvin:

Of course it makes sense! St. Paul ends the epistle (a few verses later) with “The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.” How could St. Paul write something like that if he was unsure of his salvation?

Now you are correct that 2 Timothy was written at the end of Paul’s life, but even in his earlier letters he seems sure of the final outcome:

Ephesians 1:4 “…just as (God) chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him…” How can St. Paul say that he will *be *holy and blameless before God if he has no assurance of salvation?

Phillippians 1:6 “For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus…” How can St. Paul say that the good work will be perfected if he has no assurance of salvation?

I realize (I think) that Catholic teaching is not that there is no assurance but the reason I stepped in is because this seemed to be the direction the thread was taking. Surely St. Paul seems to think there is some assurance.

Assurance and a life of faith and works go together. I think the best passage on this is Corinthians 1:22-23: “He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-
if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel…” Notice how that works – we have assurance that we have been reconciled and can know that we will be holy and blameless (one day) but it hinges on our continuing in the faith.

So there is no contradiction of this idea with St. Paul’s Damascas conversion: Jesus had certain things he wanted St. Paul to do before he died (missionary work, epistles to write, tortures to endure, etc.) St. Paul knew what the outcome would be (his letters are full of references) but he also knew that he had to persevere in the faith through the trails and tribulations of his life. That life of faith and obedience was the race he had to run. To say “well I’m going to heaven” and not do anything would be a travesty of the Gospel.

St. Paul asks himself a similar rhetorical question in Romans 6: “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace might increase?” and he answered it “By no means!” Some folks thought that, because of forgiveness, they could sin all they want. Some folks think that a future hope means we have nothing to work for. The answer to both is “by no means!”

Peace,
-C

From your response, I’m not sure where you stand. It sounds like we have a lot more in common than we think. As long as you admit (which it seems like you have in your writings above) that one can lose his/her salvation if they don’t continue in the faith, I wouldn’t argue with you.

 

[JohnCarroll]

Spider-man:

I’ve heard the guys on catholic answers live talk about these questions before. I used to be involved in Evangelism Explosion, a ministry founded by D. James Kennedy. Basically, it teaches folks to share the gospel. I was a trainer, teaching people to share the gospel, and I traveled to Australia to help lead a week-long clinic in Brisbane to teach some members of a church there. These questions are not intended to catch anyone off guard…they’re just diagnostic questions to kind of get an idea what folks are thinking.

I am new to this forum, and am just curious what folks here would answer to these.

Do you know for sure that you are going to be with God in Heaven?

and

If God were to ask you, “Why should I let you into My Heaven?” what would you say?

I have to admit these answers are one of the more troubling parts of Catholic ideas.

When one asks a Catholic “are you saved” he feels that if he says yes, he is presuming on a decision best left to God.

What must I do to be saved you ask? For a Catholic it is simple–Repent and be Baptized. What it means to repent and be Baptized is a little more complex. Rather ask him if he is in a state of grace. This means just about the same as when you ask an Arminian Protestant "are you saved. " A Catholic can have more confidence in his answer to this question. The Catholic can say with the Bible yes, I was Saved , I am being Saved and I will be Saved.

Like you we have confidence in the promises of God . We might betray Him but He will never betray us. All this effort to tease out of scripture the Calvinist view, from the Arminian, from the Catholic never gets us anywhere. One thing we can all agree on --God is merciful, loving, and faithful.We can give our life to a God like that --let Him do with us as he wishes.

 

[germys9]

I know if I continue in my faith journey and cooperate with the grace of God, I will be with Him one day because I have hope and trust in his promise. However, I also know how weak I am and how I have failed so many times already (and I’m young) - it is for these reasons that I am never so confident to say that it is not possible that I could turn away from my faith. Even if I’m 99% sure, for me, it will never be absolute or 100%.

 

[srkbdk]

Dr. Colossus:

1.) If I died today, I believe with complete faith that I will receive eternal salvation. This does not mean of course that there wouldn’t be a possible pitstop in purgatory, but the main thrust of this question isn’t theological debate, but rather, “are you sure you wouldn’t go to hell.” As a protestant, your criteria should convince you that we would go to Heaven, as Romans 10:9 says that anyone who confesses God with lips and believes in his heart will be saved. Every practicing Catholic in the world says the following at Mass “We believe in one God, the Father…His only Son…[and] the Holy Spirit”. I think that should pretty much qualify

However, as for our own belief in assurance of salvation? We believe that

:bible1: “There is such a thing as deadly sin” 1 John 5:16

Committing such sins take us out of a state of Grace, requiring God’s forgiveness (through the sacrament of Reconciliation) to return to His Grace. However, so long as we know that we are in that state of Grace, we can hope in our salvation. We never say we are absolutely sure, however, for St. Paul tells us

:bible1: “I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.” 1 Corintians 4:4

2.) If I were to be asked by God why I should enter His Heaven, I hope I would be able to say “My lord, during my life you led me to You, and I have since that point endeavored to serve you as best I could. But I can give You no reason that You do not already know. O my Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner. Thy will be done.”

This is well said Spider man can you respond to the points made here please?

 

[Rae]

From Karl Keating (an excerpt from 'Catholicism and Fundamentalism"):

"Consider the case of a fundamentalist minister convicted of a heinous crime. What must the man in the pew conclude from his sin? That the pastor was just as saved as his congregants, who would have been embarrassed to attend a movie rated less than PG? Logically they would have to say precisely that, if the man had been saved according to the fundamentalist scheme of things, even if his experience of salvation had come years before, even if his last years had been ones of perversity. From the fundamentalists’ perspective, one can do nothing to lose salvation.

Putting aside the question whether this is a positive invitation to antinomianism—after all, if one is guaranteed heaven, why not have fun here below while the having’s good?—the congregants naturally wonder whether their pastor was ever saved at all. No matter what the theory might be, it rankles to think a saved person would do such a thing or that a saved person would sin at all. One might call it the fundamentalist equivalent of Catholics wondering whether the man in the chasuble was ever validly ordained. A man never validly ordained as a priest cannot confect the sacraments, even if he goes through the motions perfectly. A fundamentalist pastor who himself was never saved—well, that is a disturbing thought.

It is a thought that leads to one of two conclusions:
Either this pastor was never saved in the first place, although everyone thought he was—this implies one can never tell from outward actions who is saved and who is not—or he was indeed saved but can now sin with impunity. But that is repugnant to common moral convictions. A pastor known for years by his congregants would be presumed saved; if they could be fooled, couldn’t the man have fooled himself? If he, with some formal religious training, thought he was born again when he was not, how is the average fundamentalist to know whether his conversion “took”?

How can any fundamentalist know his salvation experience was real, that it “worked”? He cannot. Leading a good life immediately after being born again proves nothing, since one might sin grievously at a later time. Leading a bad life right after apparently being saved does not disprove it, since one’s sins are immaterial.

Either way, the doctrine seems nearly useless because, when reflected on seriously, it seems to make impossible the very assurance it is supposed to give.

If we, having been born again in fundamentalism’s sense, are now sure for heaven, and if we know nothing can deprive us of it, then we have not reason to hope because we know heaven is ours. But “our salvation is founded upon the hope of something”, says Paul. “Hope would not be hope at all if its object were in view; how could a man still hope for something which he sees? (Rom 8:24). We hope for heaven, however well disposed we might be spiritually, because we know we still have a chance to lose it."

 

[Rae]

The once saved,always saved,quiz…from Gary Hoge’s A Protestant’s Guide to the Catholic Church.

Ezekiel 18:21-22, 24 "If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him.

“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”

Question:

If a wicked man turns away from his sins and is justified, and then turns back to his sins, will he still live?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see those verses

1 Corinthians 11:32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.

Question:

Is it possible for a Christian to be condemned with the world?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Extra credit:

According to the Bible, why does God discipline us?
(HINT: “To prevent us from being ___________ with the world”)

2 Timothy 2:12 If we disown him, he will also disown us.

Question:

If a Christian repudiates Christ, will he himself be repudiated?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Revelation 22:14, 19

“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city . . . If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”

Question:

If a Christian takes words away from the book of revelation, will he lose his share in the tree of life and to be excluded from the holy city?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

1 Timothy 3:6

“[A potential bishop must not be] a new convert, lest he become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.”

Question:

Is it possible for a Christian to fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

2 Peter 2:20-21

“For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

Bonus Essay Question:

If a Christian cannot lose his salvation, even if he becomes entangled in the pollutions of the world, how can such entanglement be described as worse than his first (unsaved) condition? How can it be said of a saved man, “It would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness”?

Galatians 5:19-20

“The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Question:

If a Christian lives in the manner described by Paul, will he inherit the kingdom of God?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Romans 11:22

“Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God; sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Question:

If a Christian does not continue in God’s kindness, will he be cut off?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

1 Corinthians 15:2

“By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise you have believed in vain.”

Question:

If a Christian does not hold firmly to the gospel and falls away, will it be said of him that he believed for nothing?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Hebrews 4:1, 11

“Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it . . . Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.”

Question:

If a Christian follows the Israelites example of disobedience, will he enter God’s rest?

A. Yes
B. No
C. I’m going to pretend I didn’t see that verse

Matthew 7:21
Matthew 24:13
Romans 11:22
Phil 2:12
1 Cor 9:27
1 Cor 10:11-12
Gal 5:4
2 Timothy 2:11-13
Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 10:26-27

 

[Calvin]

ralphinal:

Ok, explain this one to me.

I’ll make you a deal. I’ll exegete these verses like a good Protestant if you show me how a Catholic would interpret them. I am honestly interested in seeing how a Catholic draws upon the resources of the Church to interpret Scripture. I know how I interpret Scripture, I want to see a different (better?) way. I think what I write is a difference of emphasis not substance…

St. Paul spoke of saved in the past tense (Rom 8:24 … Eph 2:5,8 …faith; 2 Tim 1:9 … and Tit 3:5 …
Actually the word “saved” in Romans 8:24, 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5 is not in the past tense but is in the aortist tense (which we don’t have in English). The aortist tense represents and action done without regard for time frame. It is usually translated as a simple past tense but it is important to note, in the Greek, that this was not understood as a simple past tense – it was like past, present and future all together. Ephesians 2:5,8 is the perfect tense.

St Paul spoke of being saved in present tense (Phil 2:12…St Peter did too (1 Pet 1:9
The word “salvation” (soteria) is not the same as the word “saved.” It is a noun (“saved” is a verb) so there is no tense per se. (Although “work out” and “attain” are in the present tense in both of these passages.)

Yet Jesus spoke in the future tense. Look at Matthew 10:22… and Matthew 24:13… Mark 8:35…You can see it in Acts 15:11… Romans 5:9-10…, 13:11…, 1Cor 3:15…, 1 Cor 5:5 …, and Heb 9:28…

Matthew 10:22, 24:13 and Mark 8:35 are future tense. Romans 5:9-10 and 1 Corinthians 3:15 are also future tense. Acts 15:11 and 1 Cor 5:5 are aortist. In Romans 13:11 and Heb 9:28 “salvation” is a noun, not a verb. The verbs in Romans are aortist and future tense in Hebrews.

Ok, Have you been saved, are you being saved, or will you be saved?
All of the above.

The writers of Scripture would not contradict themselves! St. Paul used the past, present, future and aortist tense in talking about salvation. Some want to reduce this to a “well, which one is it?” question, but the Apostle was not thinking in those terms! The aortist tense is the glue that holds St. Paul’s writings on salvation together (and note that half the verses quoted above are in the aortist tense). This tense is beyond time frame, so to speak, and shows that salvation is not a simple “when did it happen?” question. The answer is all of the above: It happened. It is happening. It will happen.

This is one of the mysteries of the faith well summed up in Phillippians: work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for it is He who works through you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure… so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach… holding fast to the word of life so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain.

Colossians also has a good summary: He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach – if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard.

Every Pauline Epistle has a passage that shows faith and works coming together with hope in an assurance of pardon. This is the message of salvation. And so it is proper to say: I have been saved, I am being saved, I will (if I hold fast) be saved.

It is important to note, however, that we have One to help us hold fast. I trust that the seed planted in me by the Holy Spirit will be enough to keep me from turning away from God before I die. I could be wrong (even this very minute I am feeling temptation) but I have faith in (back to my doxology) the one who is able to “keep (me) from stumbling and present (me) spotless before His glory.” I prefer to think on the hope of salvation through the glorious promise of the atonement. In that I would say “I know for sure” although I would also admit that I still have the power, if I chose to use it, to decide the other way.

Jesus died to save us all, but it is not a done deal. God respects our free will too much. Because of that, even though Jesus died to save us all, we can still mess it up with one simple act of sin. I have been saved, I am still working out my salvation, and I hope to one day be saved.
We agree. (I wrote the above before I even read this part of your message.) I think we jut put the emphasis in different places.

Ah, but ralph, you say, what about eternal assurance of salvation? Matthew 7:21 not everyone saying Lord Lord will be saved.
Amen. Amen. Matthew 7 is a call to humility. But note what Jesus says “I never knew you” (aortist tense) – those who were turned away were never “saved” to begin with.
Peace,

-C

 

[QuicumqueVult]

Spider-man:

I wasn’t going to respond for awhile…as I wanted to see a bunch of the responses first…but beng just brings it out of me.

Hmm…so the apostle John should be anathemized?

1 John 5:13: "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. "

Apparently, John was saying it is possible to know for sure.

Back when I was a Fundamentalist, I memorized this verse as part of the Navigators’ (Colossians) 2:7 Series. I was never comfortable with the way the verse was interpreted. Seen in the light of the whole epistle, the verse simply says, “I am going to give you auditors some diagnostic questions to help you determine if you are children of the Light. Do you love? Do you confess your sins? Do you…?”

The semi-Calvinist soteriology of the Navigators misses the whole point of St. John’s first epistle. Far from teaching eternal security, it recommends rigorous self-examination. So does the Catholic ascetical tradition (particular examen, for one). The Navigators teach OSAS (once saved anways saved). By inference one does not need to confess one’s sin; that would be redundant because they are already forgiven as one is positionally “in Christ.” But clearly we must!

1:9 – if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It’s not a one-time affair. It’s a life of sacramental grace: Baptism, Eucharist, and Confession.

I think I’m finally starting understand the first epistle of John, sans the Protestant Evangelical overlay that never quite fit the plain sense (perspicuity) of the passage.

 

[jeffreedy789]

ya, i grew up with these questions, spiderman. thing is, like much of protestant theology, it’s based on a false premise.

do i know for sure that i’ll go to heaven when i die?

i can’t. the question assumes that i can, when it’s not possible. we work out our salvation with fear and trembling - that verse must be taken into consideration when interpreting john’s words ‘that you may know you have eternal life’. i think the balance takes the emphasis off of the word ‘know’, which protestants always emphasize.

what would i say if God asked me why He should let me in to heaven?

i honestly can’t imagine God giving us a theology test to determine if we’ll enter heaven. BUT. i can imagine alot of protestant groups giving a theology test before you can enter their church. i think this overemphasis on systematic theology, and ignoring of good works, is a perfect picture of the mistake that evangelical christianity makes in its soteriology.

 

[michaelp]

Calvin:

St. Paul spoke of saved in the past tense (Rom 8:24 … Eph 2:5,8 …faith; 2 Tim 1:9 … and Tit 3:5 …
Actually the word “saved” in Romans 8:24, 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 3:5 is not in the past tense but is in the aortist tense (which we don’t have in English). The aortist tense represents and action done without regard for time frame. It is usually translated as a simple past tense but it is important to note, in the Greek, that this was not understood as a simple past tense – it was like past, present and future all together. Ephesians 2:5,8 is the perfect tense.

St Paul spoke of being saved in present tense (Phil 2:12…St Peter did too (1 Pet 1:9
The word “salvation” (soteria) is not the same as the word “saved.” It is a noun (“saved” is a verb) so there is no tense per se. (Although “work out” and “attain” are in the present tense in both of these passages.)

Yet Jesus spoke in the future tense. Look at Matthew 10:22… and Matthew 24:13… Mark 8:35…You can see it in Acts 15:11… Romans 5:9-10…, 13:11…, 1Cor 3:15…, 1 Cor 5:5 …, and Heb 9:28…

Matthew 10:22, 24:13 and Mark 8:35 are future tense. Romans 5:9-10 and 1 Corinthians 3:15 are also future tense. Acts 15:11 and 1 Cor 5:5 are aortist. In Romans 13:11 and Heb 9:28 “salvation” is a noun, not a verb. The verbs in Romans are aortist and future tense in Hebrews.

Ok, Have you been saved, are you being saved, or will you be saved?
All of the above.

The writers of Scripture would not contradict themselves! St. Paul used the past, present, future and aortist tense in talking about salvation. Some want to reduce this to a “well, which one is it?” question, but the Apostle was not thinking in those terms! The aortist tense is the glue that holds St. Paul’s writings on salvation together (and note that half the verses quoted above are in the aortist tense). This tense is beyond time frame, so to speak, and shows that salvation is not a simple “when did it happen?” question. The answer is all of the above: It happened. It is happening. It will happen.

This is one of the mysteries of the faith well summed up in Phillippians: work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for it is He who works through you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure… so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach… holding fast to the word of life so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain.

Colossians also has a good summary: He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach – if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard.

Every Pauline Epistle has a passage that shows faith and works coming together with hope in an assurance of pardon. This is the message of salvation. And so it is proper to say: I have been saved, I am being saved, I will (if I hold fast) be saved.

It is important to note, however, that we have One to help us hold fast. I trust that the seed planted in me by the Holy Spirit will be enough to keep me from turning away from God before I die. I could be wrong (even this very minute I am feeling temptation) but I have faith in (back to my doxology) the one who is able to “keep (me) from stumbling and present (me) spotless before His glory.” I prefer to think on the hope of salvation through the glorious promise of the atonement. In that I would say “I know for sure” although I would also admit that I still have the power, if I chose to use it, to decide the other way.

Jesus died to save us all, but it is not a done deal. God respects our free will too much. Because of that, even though Jesus died to save us all, we can still mess it up with one simple act of sin. I have been saved, I am still working out my salvation, and I hope to one day be saved.
We agree. (I wrote the above before I even read this part of your message.) I think we jut put the emphasis in different places.

Ah, but ralph, you say, what about eternal assurance of salvation? Matthew 7:21 not everyone saying Lord Lord will be saved.
Amen. Amen. Matthew 7 is a call to humility. But note what Jesus says “I never knew you” (aortist tense) – those who were turned away were never “saved” to begin with.
Peace,

-C

Very good response Calvin. I think that you have shown great wisdom and accuracy in your interpretation of the Scriptures both exegetically and theologically.

Michael

 

[Heartbroke]

Salmon:

Spidey: Jeremiah expressed it, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?” (Jer. 17:9). If our salvation is guaranteed at any point in time, then we can always discard that theological virtue of “hope”, since the guarantee makes “hope” unnecessary.
Peace in Christ…Salmon

Romans 5:1-5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so,** but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation works patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope:** And hope makes not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who is given unto us.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Ro 5:2,5; 8:20,24; 2Co 10:15; Ga 5:5; Php 1:20; 1Ti 1:1; Tit 3:7; Heb 6:18; 7:19; 1Pe 1:3,21
hope. Job 27:8; Ps 22:4-5; Isa 28:15-18; 45:16; 49:23; Jer 17:5-8; Php 1:20; 2Th 2:16; 2Ti 1:12; Heb 6:18-19
because. Ro 8:14-17,28; Mt 22:36-37; 1Co 8:3; Heb 8:10-12; 1Jo 4:19
shed. Isa 44:3-5; Eze 36:25; 2Co 1:22; 3:18; 4:6; Ga 4:6; 5:22; Eph 1:13; 3:16-19; 4:30; Tit 3:5

I hope this helps clarify things misunderstood.

 

[Heartbroke]

gomer tree:

But I do not know how I am going to spend my next moment. Or the moment after that. And so on. I may have no intention of sinning, and something may happen in my life that I could never expect, and I could respond in such a manner that I sin gravely. Therefore, I have no assurance of salvation for the rest of my life, even if there is a relative assurance now.
And, as pointed out, Paul’s words should certainly give pause to anyone who dares suggest that they have judged themselves righteous enough to go to heaven. It simply is not for us to say.

I guess you missed the meaning of his words: Philippians 3:13-16 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I** press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.** Let us therefore, as many as be perfect (mature), be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Philippians 3:20-21 For our citizenship is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Oh, I honestly believe that the apostle Paul most assuredly taught that we can know. Amen? So does Luke, John, Peter, James and Jude.

 

[ppcpilot]

Spider-man:

I wasn’t going to respond for awhile…as I wanted to see a bunch of the responses first…but beng just brings it out of me.

Hmm…so the apostle John should be anathemized?

1 John 5:13: "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. "

Apparently, John was saying it is possible to know for sure.

Yeah, everyone will have eternal life, believing or unbelieving. Whether you ascend or descend is the real question.

 

[rcwhiteh]

Spider-man:

I’ve heard the guys on catholic answers live talk about these questions before. I used to be involved in Evangelism Explosion, a ministry founded by D. James Kennedy. Basically, it teaches folks to share the gospel. I was a trainer, teaching people to share the gospel, and I traveled to Australia to help lead a week-long clinic in Brisbane to teach some members of a church there. These questions are not intended to catch anyone off guard…they’re just diagnostic questions to kind of get an idea what folks are thinking.

I am new to this forum, and am just curious what folks here would answer to these.

Do you know for sure that you are going to be with God in Heaven?

and

If God were to ask you, “Why should I let you into My Heaven?” what would you say?

 

[jeffreedy789]

‘so that you know that you have eternal life’.

so that we know that, if we follow Him, and don’t give up, and ‘fight the good fight’ and ‘finish the race’ and ‘endure to the end’, we will have eternal life.

see, you can’t take one scripture out of the Bible and build your theology on it. i mean, you CAN. but it’s a bad idea.

there are so many verses that make it so clear that, while our salvation is something promised to us, there are certain things we have to DO in order to enter in to that eternal life.

most of Jesus’s teachings on heaven are based on DOING things - being born again AND eating His flesh and drinking His blood AND what we do unto the least of these our brethren… to lift up paul’s teachings, in certain places, and say ‘THIS is what the Bible REALLY says’ is to misrepresent the Bible as a whole.

else what DO you do with a verse like ‘work out your salvation with fear and trembling’?

someone who represents the ‘once saved’ camp, please address this verse. no one will touch it!

 

[4_marks]

Spider-man:

I am new to this forum, and am just curious what folks here would answer to these.

Do you know for sure that you are going to be with God in Heaven?

and

If God were to ask you, “Why should I let you into My Heaven?” what would you say?

No, I do not know for sure that I will be going to be with God in Heaven. I hope that through the merits of Jesus Christ that I will have eternal life in union with God and with the Body of Christ. I know better than to trust myself for I am often fickle and impetuous. To be honest, I am not even certain beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is an afterlife. This may be all that there is. I hope that there is an afterlife, but I have no absolute, irrefutable proof that there is. Even so, I choose to trust in the Lord.

If God were to ask me why I should be “let into Heaven,” I would plead the blood and the merits of Christ who died for my sins. I believe that, if I were to die this instant, that I will likely have to go through some form of purification as I know that I am not quite yet the man God has intended me to be.