Do you know the Catechism is the teachers' edition?

[Nihilo]

In matters of faith and morals, priests have to teach in accordance with the Catechism, in order to be in communion with his bishop. And his bishop has to teach in accordance with the Catechism in order to be in communion with the Holy See.

 

[Scott84]

In matters of faith and morals, priests have to teach in accordance with the Catechism, in order to be in communion with his bishop. And his bishop has to teach in accordance with the Catechism in order to be in communion with the Holy See.

Very good, you get a gold star. This is Catholic 101 stuff that everyone needs to know. Did you just learn this?

 

[Nihilo]

No. I did not just learn this. But I am running into people here who do not appear, in their words, to know this. So I’m asking the question.

 

[Beryllos]

Sounds like a sensible rule, but how does that work in practice? Do they certify that they teach in accordance? Is there an exam? Are they audited?

 

[po18guy]

No. I did not just learn this. But I am running into people here who do not appear, in their words, to know this. So I’m asking the question.

The questions we see here tend to demonstrate that you are 100% correct. You would think that the catechism was on a list of banned books or something. You need not even purchase a copy. It’s online in at least two prominent locations.

And, it is in such plain English that it is eminently readable and understandable. The faith makes perfect sense if one only reads the areas about which they have questions.

 

[Nihilo]

I don’t think so, beyond their superlative seminary education. I have studied certain teachings deeply, and fwiw every priest I’ve ever heard expound upon them, reveals that they are generally very intelligent, and faithful men. I wouldn’t have been able to appreciate that, without having studied the Catechism very deeply. There is an awful lot of expansive knowledge about Catholicism in their minds, and some or maybe many priests don’t know perfectly how to share it with us. Heeding the Catechism can help your priest help you.

 

[Nihilo]

[The Catechism] is in such plain English that it is eminently readable and understandable. The faith makes perfect sense if one only reads the areas about which they have questions.

100% agree. It is a gift, and it is a gift from every bishop from Vatican II, and it is especially a gift from Pope St. John Paul, to the Church he still loves so much.

 

[Mary888]

I thought Communion is established through the Holy Mystery of the Eucharist, and the fact that the priest mentions the bishop during the Liturgy, and the Pope, and the bishop mentions the Pope.
So the Communion is through the Holy Spirit and not strict word (teaching) even if the word is important and heresies are forbidden. Otherwise does it not contradict St. Paul’s words? He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (Corinthians, 2 - 3:6). We are linked in Spirit not in a contract. So if a priest teaches at the limit of catechism I imagine the bishop or other priests will research if the priests truly has crooked beliefs or, for pastoral reasons, to convince people of the truth of the catechism, he rephrases things and is unaware that some may take his words and conclude to a heresy.
I don’t know very well so I am just saying what I understood.

 

[AlbMagno]

Are they audited?

There should be an ISO for parish activities

 

[Nihilo]

I thought Communion is established through the Holy Mystery of the Eucharist, and the fact that the priest mentions the bishop during the Liturgy, and the Pope, and the bishop mentions the Pope.

I’m only saying one necessary condition for clergy to be in communion with the papacy, not all of them.

So the Communion is through the Holy Spirit and not strict word (teaching) even if the word is important and heresies are forbidden.

Well I think we’re talking about the same thing but with different words then. Where you say “heresies are forbidden,” that’s where I’m saying that all our pastors have to teach the same thing to be in communion with the Magisterium and with therefore also the papacy.

Otherwise does it not contradict St. Paul’s words? He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant–not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (Corinthians, 2 - 3:6). We are linked in Spirit not in a contract. So if a priest teaches at the limit of catechism I imagine the bishop or other priests will research if the priests truly has crooked beliefs or, for pastoral reasons, to convince people of the truth of the catechism, he rephrases things and is unaware that some may take his words and conclude to a heresy.
I don’t know very well so I am just saying what I understood.

One thing that compels me that the faithful knowing the Catechism is a very good thing is the scripture, "Acts 17
the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea. Who, when they were come thither, went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so. (Acts 17:10-11)

The pattern here, that St. Luke records for us, is the faithful at Berea actually checking what the Apostle St. Paul taught them, and they are called in so doing “more noble.” So when we study the teachers edition we are following that same early tradition established and recorded for us in the Scripture.

And then we are better soil, and the seeds that our pastors sow can find purchase in our souls more fruitfully. We help them to help us.

 

[Dovekin]

6 While not being formally identified with them, catechesis is built on a certain number of elements of the Church’s pastoral mission which have a catechetical aspect, that prepare for catechesis, or spring from it. They are: the initial proclamation of the Gospel or missionary preaching to arouse faith; examination of the reasons for belief; experience of Christian living; celebration of the sacraments; integration into the ecclesial community; and apostolic and missionary witness.
Catechism of the Catholic Church

I am not sure your comments accurately reflect the dynamic of faith described here. Communion is more rooted in the celebration of sacraments; integration into the ecclesial community, etc. These are accompanied by catechesis, so there is a link between catechesis and communion but it is not as immediate as you express.

IOW catechesis is needed to receive sacraments, and sacraments create communion. Or substitute “integration into the community” or “apostolic and missionary witness” or the others. Those are the factors in the bonds of communion. But I do not think that erroneous catechesis completely negates communion. To a certain degree, perhaps.

 

[Nihilo]

6 While not being formally identified with them, catechesis is built on a certain number of elements of the Church’s pastoral mission which have a catechetical aspect, that prepare for catechesis, or spring from it. They are: the initial proclamation of the Gospel or missionary preaching to arouse faith; examination of the reasons for belief; experience of Christian living; celebration of the sacraments; integration into the ecclesial community; and apostolic and missionary witness.
Catechism of the Catholic Church

The sacraments stand on their own, and I’m not suggesting that ‘the same rules’ apply to the faithful, I’m suggesting more that there is a categorically higher standard for our pastors than for the rest of us, for them to be in communion with the Church. They must teach what their bishop teaches and their bishop must teach what Pope Francis teaches, and the teaching itself is recorded in the Catechism. It was addressed to the bishops, by Pope St. John Paul. It is like a letter to them, but we all get to read what he said.

 

[Gorgias]

Very good, you get a gold star. This is Catholic 101 stuff that everyone needs to know. Did you just learn this?

Not seeing why uncharitability is the appropriate response here…

And, it is in such plain English that it is eminently readable and understandable.

I’m not sure I totally agree. For folks inside the faith – who have already been exposed to the teachings of the Church – the CCC can be a valuable reference. But, for those who have never learned the faith (which, sadly, often includes Catholics themselves!), there’s enough jargon and terse description in the CCC that it sometimes leaves folks walking away, scratching their heads.

After all, the goal of the CCC wasn’t to be the primary textbook for those who wish to learn the faith: it was to be the primary reference for those who were going to develop local catechisms.

I’m only saying one necessary condition for clergy to be in communion with the papacy, not all of them.

Ahh, but the question becomes how one might ‘police’ such a condition, eh?

 

[Nihilo]

Scott84:

Very good, you get a gold star. This is Catholic 101 stuff that everyone needs to know. Did you just learn this?

Not seeing why uncharitability is the appropriate response here…

We butted heads a bit in another thread. I think this is blowing off steam.

po18guy:

And, it is in such plain English that it is eminently readable and understandable.

I’m not sure I totally agree. For folks inside the faith – who have already been exposed to the teachings of the Church – the CCC can be a valuable reference. But, for those who have never learned the faith (which, sadly, often includes Catholics themselves!), there’s enough jargon and terse description in the CCC that it sometimes leaves folks walking away, scratching their heads.

I have found nothing in any Text that is not clarified elsewhere, personally. It is of course a dense volume, and I fortunately have been blessed /cursed with theological interest from my youth and so I’m thankful for its volume, but it is unwieldy for those not similarly inclined.

But really it can be seen as a dictionary. There’s not a dictionary worth its salt that isn’t dense and full of explanations and definitions, and using the index of the Catechism you can study every broad topic in great depth, and many narrow topics sufficiently enough to fit it all together with the entirety of the faith (which the Catechism claims to be an expression of—the Catholic faith in its entirety).

After all, the goal of the CCC wasn’t to be the primary textbook for those who wish to learn the faith: it was to be the primary reference for those who were going to develop local catechisms.

Yes, like jewelers creating the most beautiful things, drawing from a huge pile of precious metals and gold.

Nihilo:

I’m only saying one necessary condition for clergy to be in communion with the papacy, not all of them.

Ahh, but the question becomes how one might ‘police’ such a condition, eh?

I’m not thinking we need any “policing.” But what if a parishioner after Mass asks the priest about something he said in his homily, and how it integrates with something said in the Catechism, without “policing,” but seeking to understand, and to be instructed?

There does remain in what the Catechism teaches and in what it does not teach, that we are genuinely free to believe what we want in all matters that are not faith or morals, so long as it doesn’t conflict with any authentically Apostolic teaching /tradition, all of which is in the Catechism.

 

[Dovekin]

The sacraments stand on their own, and I’m not suggesting that ‘the same rules’ apply to the faithful, I’m suggesting more that there is a categorically higher standard for our pastors than for the rest of us, for them to be in communion with the Church. They must teach what their bishop teaches and their bishop must teach what Pope Francis teaches, and the teaching itself is recorded in the Catechism. It was addressed to the bishops, by Pope St. John Paul. It is like a letter to them, but we all get to read what he said.

The “categorically higher standard for our pastors” is called Holy Orders. It is a bond between priest and bishop, or priest and religious community, that is more than agreeing on the Catechism. Communion here cannot be narrowed down to agreement on the teachings in the Catechism, though that is probably part of it.

On a broader level, the Church’s magisterium is the final interpreter of both Tradition and Scripture. The Catechism is part of the Tradition and needs to be understood within that context. Before we ever get to the Catechism, there are bonds of communion that exist that are the context for understanding.

I am not really disputing what you have said. I just think the way it was said can leave a mistaken impression that the Catechism determines communion.

 

[Nihilo]

The “categorically higher standard for our pastors” is called Holy Orders.

That is A categorically Different standard. Even if all the clergy reject the teachings of the Catechism, still the sacraments they celebrate are valid, and that is the outcome of Orders.

It is a bond between priest and bishop, or priest and religious community, that is more than agreeing on the Catechism. Communion here cannot be narrowed down to agreement on the teachings in the Catechism, though that is probably part of it.

I did not narrow it down, but focused in on one facet of a multifaceted thing.

On a broader level, the Church’s magisterium is the final interpreter of both Tradition and Scripture.

Yes, and it is in a way both from the Magisterium, and to the Magisterium. This is why I call it “the teachers’ edition.” And that is also what I’m trying to say, that we all now have access to the teachers’ edition, which is something that didn’t even exist until after Trent, and that now for the first time in history is distributed economically throughout the whole world.

I really love and appreciate the Catechism, as a gift, as I’ve said, from Pope St. John Paul, and also from the Lord Jesus Himself, on Whose behalf John Paul gave it to us.

The Catechism is part of the Tradition and needs to be understood within that context.

I think it needs to be understood as containing Apostolic lessons on matters of faith and morals, now available to us for the first time in history in its glorious entirety. We all now have access to exactly what the Apostles taught, through the faithful work of all the bishops who’ve ever preserved that Tradition, and taught it to subsequent bishops, so that the Tradition is transmitted now to us in the Catechism.

Before we ever get to the Catechism, there are bonds of communion that exist that are the context for understanding.

Yes, as the Catechism itself teaches. First and foremost in the life of the Church are the sacraments.

I am not really disputing what you have said. I just think the way it was said can leave a mistaken impression that the Catechism determines communion.

Only that it does in a way determine a sort of communion among our pastors, that does not apply to us faithful.

This is taking into account both the Catechism itself, and what my priest personally advised, that only if we start doubting the Creed, should we wonder about whether we’re in communion due to any differences of opinion in matters of faith. So long as we can honestly confess our Creed, and avoid grave sin, then we don’t have to worry. It’s different for priests and bishops though, due to their vocation as authentic teachers of the faith.

 

[po18guy]

Well, if so, then there is the excellent Pocket Catholic Catechism by Servant of God Fr. John Hardon, S.J. or the Compendium of the Catechism - both more condensed and easily read than the full version.

We can wait our entire lives, placing blame on priest and bishop, but at a basic level we are responsible for our own enlightenment in the teaching of the faith. This principle is explained in the Rite of Baptism of children: we are our children’s primary instructors in the faith.

Why not set smart phone, remote or mouse down and delve into the beauty of the faith?

 

[Gorgias]

We butted heads a bit in another thread. I think this is blowing off steam.

Got it. I can tend to do the same thing. Still…

I have found nothing in any Text that is not clarified elsewhere, personally. It is of course a dense volume, and I fortunately have been blessed /cursed with theological interest from my youth and so I’m thankful for its volume, but it is unwieldy for those not similarly inclined.

It’s usually a bad approach to project one’s mindset onto others, right? So, even though you and I look at the CCC and think, “what? what’s unclear to you? It seems very obvious to me!”, well… that’s not everyone’s reaction to its text…

But really it can be seen as a dictionary.

I tend to see it as an ‘encyclopedia’, or even better, as a ‘grad-level text’, but yep… we’re not too far from each other on this idea.