Do you live in luxury? If so, what are your luxuries?

[Xantippe]

**We’ve spent a truly shocking amount trying to follow the frequently Boomer plan of ten year old cars (paying what the car cost in cash for repairs) **and you need more than one tie and dress shirt in normal American society. We did all the recommended stuff, in the modern era it’s actually insanely expensive and we would done better buying the suburban house that looks like all the others and going on a few vacations to break up the monotony. We’d have a lot more money in the bank compared to our attempts to follow the frugal plans.

A lot of my positions come from bitter experience trying to “follow the frugal plan” and it just blowing right up in our faces. Following the supposedly frivolous plans of tract home in an expensive zip code and frequent visits to exotic locales would have been better for our financial and physical health.

I suspect the 10 year plan works a lot better when you don’t drive a lot and/or don’t have a huge commute.

We owned the car that lost power and left me coasting downhill through a major intersection for nearly 10 years (it was a 13-year-old car with about 125,000 miles on it). It wasn’t even very expensive in terms of repairs (although the last estimate on repairs before we sold it was probably more than the value), it was just more and more of a headache and a menace and even before the final incident, we’d decided not to take it on the Interstate.

The car we kept is 6 years old with 95k miles on it. That’s not high mileage these days, but on the other hand, the car we sold (because of the whole “coasting through intersection” thing) wasn’t really high mileage, either. I have my fingers crossed that the surviving car remains safe and drivable for another three years, because that’s the most likely window for us being able to afford a second car again.

We’ve done more or less OK with the Boomer plan with buying 3-year-old cars in the $11k-$12k price point, but at some point, it’s time to say goodbye. Also, given our experiences, I’d be very hesitant to buying anything older than 3 years (although a family with more car know-how than ourselves might be able to manage it).

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I am neutral on Dave Ramsey but I have noticed many who follow the plan can get very judgmental towards those who don’t as either “irresponsible” or “selfish”.

Much like the “Mommy Wars” that often result in devotees of certain parenting models, judging parents who don’t follow them, as essentially guilty of child abuse.

I recall a former poster who had a rather unrealistic “retirement” plan of “working until I die” and had a very expensive hobby, but also did give very concrete examples of how she tried DR and it didn’t work for her.

I suppose it would be easy to tell her “just give up your hobby, it’s not worth it” but that strikes me as a tad too glib, the same way it would be glib for a homeschooling devotee to tell parents struggling to pay for Catholic school, “Just homeschool” as not everyone is called to do that.

ETA: Certainly reading this topic has made me think having an overly rigid mindset is dangerous. What is more “frugal” or “prudent” can differ greatly based on local realities, Uber may or may not be more expensive than renting a car, for example. And of course, different people have different priorities in life.

I can think of many poor immigrant families who still save up their money to be able to afford to visit their “home countries” every year. But not all do. So is giving the kids a chance to see Grandma and Grandpa, a necessity? Or a luxury those families should be doing without? But those who are fortunate enough to have their relatives all living close to them, won’t even have to deal with this dilemma, and would accept seeing Grandma and Grandpa as just a regular part of daily life.

 

[bitterhope]

Very few lower income earners take advantage of the federal retirement saving credits. I know people can do it. Thing is, do they want to? Lots and lots of sacrifice. But as my parents and grandparents did before me, we always paid the Lord first! And he’s always come through for us.

This is so true. It doesn’t take much to have a really good life. With God on our side and us on His, it always works out more beautifully than we could imagine.

 

[bitterhope]

We’ve spent a truly shocking amount trying to follow the frequently Boomer plan of ten year old cars (paying what the car cost in cash for repairs) and you need more than one tie and dress shirt in normal American society. We did all the recommended stuff, in the modern era it’s actually insanely expensive and we would done better buying the suburban house that looks like all the others and going on a few vacations to break up the monotony. We’d have a lot more money in the bank compared to our attempts to follow the frugal plans.

A lot of my positions come from bitter experience trying to “follow the frugal plan” and it just blowing right up in our faces. Following the supposedly frivolous plans of tract home in an expensive zip code and frequent visits to exotic locales would have been better for our financial and physical health.

Well then, by definition, you did not go with the frugal plan. Frugal is not expensive.

 

[Xantippe]

I am neutral on Dave Ramsey but I have noticed **many who follow the plan can get very judgmental towards those who don’t as either “irresponsible” or “selfish”. **

Much like the “Mommy Wars” that often result in devotees of certain parenting models, judging parents who don’t follow them, as essentially guilty of child abuse.

I recall a former poster who had a rather unrealistic “retirement” plan of “working until I die” and had a very expensive hobby, but also did give very concrete examples of how she tried DR and it didn’t work for her.

I suppose it would be easy to tell her “just give up your hobby, it’s not worth it” but that strikes me as a tad too glib, the same way it would be glib for a homeschooling devotee to tell parents struggling to pay for Catholic school, “Just homeschool” as not everyone is called to do that.

ETA: Certainly reading this topic has made me think having an overly rigid mindset is dangerous. What is more “frugal” or “prudent” can differ greatly based on local realities, Uber may or may not be more expensive than renting a car, for example. And of course, different people have different priorities in life. I can think of many poor immigrant families who still save up their money to be able to afford to visit their “home countries” every year.

I don’t think Dave Ramsey fans frequently use the term “selfish.” “Irresponsible,” sure. I know I was very financially irresponsible before I started doing DR, as were my parents (my dad was actually the person who turned me on to Dave Ramsey).

But, at the same time, I’m sure you’ve noticed that on CAF, people get called materialistic (and certainly “selfish”) for doing stuff like saving for college or sending kids to private school. (How saving for children’s college can be selfish, I do not know, but I’m just reporting what I’ve seen.)

I know a number of older people who used to talk the “work until I die” talk, but I haven’t heard it much from them anymore. A plan that sounds feasible and fun at 50 will sound less fun at 60 and impossible at 70–not to mention the risk of lay-offs. And seriously, who wants to work with an 80-year-old, unless it’s a very unusual 80-year-old?

I don’t know what hobby the person you’re talking about had, but I would encourage a less expensive version of hobby. For example, if you love horses, help out with horses and volunteer with horses (for example therapy for veterans or disabled children), rather than trying to keep a little horse farm of your own and doing without to cover feed and vet bills while grazing your pasture to the dirt. (I have some relatives who do hay delivery, and they deliver to some pretty sad addresses and occasionally get asked to provide hay on credit–NOPE!)

The immigrant travel example is interesting. I know it is common for people with far away relatives to devote a large amount of resources to keeping up family ties.

 

[Xantippe]

I So is giving the kids a chance to see Grandma and Grandpa, a necessity? Or a luxury those families should be doing without? But those who are fortunate enough to have their relatives all living close to them, won’t even have to deal with this dilemma, and would accept seeing Grandma and Grandpa as just a regular part of daily life.

Indeed–are grandma and grandpa a luxury?

 

[Xantippe]

Although I’ve had a number of shorter-lived relatives who died in their 60s or 70s, I’ve also had a lot of older relatives who’ve made it into their 90s. (My grandparents are 95 and 92 now and I believe my great grandpa on the other side of the family made it to 99 or something like that.)

The odds of my husband and I working into our 90s is virtually nil, while there’s a high probability of at least me living into my 90s, so there needs to be some sort of savings program going on.

 

[DarkLight]

Well then, by definition, you did not go with the frugal plan. Frugal is not expensive.

I think the issue is that what’s frugal might not necessarily be the 100% most apparent moneysaving option, and sometimes that can vary by personal circumstance.

I am neutral on Dave Ramsey but I have noticed many who follow the plan can get very judgmental towards those who don’t as either “irresponsible” or “selfish”.

ETA: Certainly reading this topic has made me think having an overly rigid mindset is dangerous. What is more “frugal” or “prudent” can differ greatly based on local realities, Uber may or may not be more expensive than renting a car, for example. And of course, different people have different priorities in life.

I’ve definitely had some posters as well (either here or on other places) who simply don’t seem to get that not everyone is in the same situation. My debt is effectively medical debt, although a lot of it was spent more on covering the general side effects of not being able to work much or take care of yourself than on strictly medical bills. It is what it is - I won’t 100% guarantee it was the best choice I could have made, but it was a reasonably rational choice given the time. But the march of “no debt ever” wasn’t helpful at the time, and I think a lot of people don’t get that medical conditions - even mental health conditions - can really flatten you to the point where there aren’t good options.

I think Xantippe was the one who pointed out to me that there’s an income problem and a debt problem, and that for a long time I was firmly on the income problem of the divide. You can’t debt manage your way out of an income problem.

 

[ThePCWife]

Well then, by definition, you did not go with the frugal plan. Frugal is not expensive.

This is cruel and also plain wrong. If I buy a cheap car in cash for 3k that has all its working parts (this is, by the way “the frugal plan” re: car buying) but it still ends up costing 4k in repairs due to something unexpected (you know, that the buyer of said car HAS NO CONTROL OVER), then that is how people end up following “the frugal plan” but shelling out huge sums anyway.

When doing the things recommended to be frugal doesn’t work out (buying a fridge full of food to stock up cheaply for months, but then the thing loses power for four days, costing hundreds of dollars and forcing a budget scramble), but the things considered “spendy” or “frivolous” do lead to smoother cash flow and lower debt, that’s when frugal is expensive.

Life happens, and when you notice all the frugal tips and tricks no longer apply in the world you actually live in, that’s when you realize frugal is expensive anyway…in social capital and lack of technology giving everyone more time.

 

[bitterhope]

This is cruel and also plain wrong. If I buy a cheap car in cash for 3k that has all its working parts (this is, by the way “the frugal plan” re: car buying) but it still ends up costing 4k in repairs due to something unexpected (you know, that the buyer of said car HAS NO CONTROL OVER), then that is how people end up following “the frugal plan” but shelling out huge sums anyway.

When doing the things recommended to be frugal doesn’t work out (buying a fridge full of food to stock up cheaply for months, but then the thing loses power for four days, costing hundreds of dollars and forcing a budget scramble), but the things considered “spendy” or “frivolous” do lead to smoother cash flow and lower debt, that’s when frugal is expensive.

Life happens, and when you notice all the frugal tips and tricks no longer apply in the world you actually live in, that’s when you realize frugal is expensive anyway…in social capital and lack of technology giving everyone more time.

I’m sorry if you feel it is cruel. My point was, “cheap” and “frugal” aren’t neccessarily the same thing. Trying to get off “cheap” will often turn expensive, but being frugal is making wise purchasing decisions based on your personal circumstances. Frugal is using your money and other resources wisely. Sometimes the frugal choice is the cheapest option, but sometimes the frugal choice is a little more up front but long term the wise decision.

Without a lot more information I can’t say whether or not is is a wise choice to buy a $3,000 car. There are many things that go into that decision, including whether or not you are mechanically inclined, and if you are able (and willing) to do at least most of the regular maintenance and repairs yourself. If you are needing a mechanic for just about all maintenance and repairs, it would be wise to put more upfront and perhaps even get a vehicle still under warranty. Many cars now have great warranties (10 yr/100,000 miles). That saves a great deal of headache for people who aren’t up to doing it themselves.

As a family we never buy in bulk, especially food. My husband and I refuse to be wasteful with food and therefore only buy what we need. Too many things can go wrong with food storage, and to us its gut wrenching to toss out food. It is not frugal to be in a position of wasting anything, but especially food. The only thing we even consider ever having a stockpile of are canned goods. They are virtually indestructible.

I think way too often people confuse frugal (simple, plain, costing little; prudent or careful use of money; wise use of resources, especially money and food) with miserly or being a cheapskate or always going for the cheapest option.

 

[1990Domer]

As a lower income earner, I was entirely unaware that there were federal retirement saving credits.

Most aren’t aware, sad to say. If you want more info, PM me.

 

[1990Domer]

Also, as Barbie is supposed to have said, “Math is hard.”

I bet you’ve noticed that a lot of people (even successful people) are mathphobes.

They are…and totally don’t understand the power of compounding. I guess being a highly boring, somewhat reclusive STEM family paid off!

 

[1990Domer]

Medical or therapy bills aren’t the only valid expense people can have that leaves them living paycheck to paycheck. When we had three nannies working shifts (two regular plus a backup), none of their paychecks would have shown up as a medical deduction, though the reason was primarily medical. That certainly had us living check to check for many months.

Just curious…why 3 nannies?

 

[1990Domer]

This is so true. It doesn’t take much to have a really good life. With God on our side and us on His, it always works out more beautifully than we could imagine.

Amen!

 

[DarkLight]

Most aren’t aware, sad to say. If you want more info, PM me.

I did google it. I think my AGI might be at the 50% level (my gross income is a bit above, but then I’m siphoning a good chunk into an HSA).

Really, that would be a useful service in general - some sort of resource for those of us at the bottom of the income pool to ensure we’re getting what we can on our taxes, as well as making people aware of any welfare services they can use. It’s not always the most coherent to make sense of on your own, even for someone like me with good computer skills and easy access to one.

 

[ThePCWife]

I’m sorry if you feel it is cruel. My point was, “cheap” and “frugal” aren’t neccessarily the same thing. Trying to get off “cheap” will often turn expensive, but being frugal is making wise purchasing decisions based on your personal circumstances. Frugal is using your money and other resources wisely. Sometimes the frugal choice is the cheapest option, but sometimes the frugal choice is a little more up front but long term the wise decision.

Without a lot more information I can’t say whether or not is is a wise choice to buy a $3,000 car. There are many things that go into that decision, including whether or not you are mechanically inclined, and if you are able (and willing) to do at least most of the regular maintenance and repairs yourself. If you are needing a mechanic for just about all maintenance and repairs, it would be wise to put more upfront and perhaps even get a vehicle still under warranty. Many cars now have great warranties (10 yr/100,000 miles). That saves a great deal of headache for people who aren’t up to doing it themselves.

As a family we never buy in bulk, especially food. My husband and I refuse to be wasteful with food and therefore only buy what we need. Too many things can go wrong with food storage, and to us its gut wrenching to toss out food. It is not frugal to be in a position of wasting anything, but especially food. The only thing we even consider ever having a stockpile of are canned goods. They are virtually indestructible.

I think way too often people confuse frugal (simple, plain, costing little; prudent or careful use of money; wise use of resources, especially money and food) with miserly or being a cheapskate or always going for the cheapest option.

“Being frugal is being perfect in your financial decisions, everything else is just ‘being cheap’”

Thanks for the clarification. I can only hope God blesses our household with the perfection of thought that guides your financial decisions so accurately that each one is always the most money-saving and financially sound one possible at every point in time.

(But you’re wrong about canned goods, too. They destruct, and how, quite frequently.)

motte, bailey, bailey, motte.

 

[1990Domer]

I did google it. I think my AGI might be at the 50% level (my gross income is a bit above, but then I’m siphoning a good chunk into an HSA).

Really, that would be a useful service in general - some sort of resource for those of us at the bottom of the income pool to ensure we’re getting what we can on our taxes, as well as making people aware of any welfare services they can use. It’s not always the most coherent to make sense of on your own, even for someone like me with good computer skills and easy access to one.

Totally! The IRS has a language all its own. And a mindset of approach all its own. Very sad. I honestly studies tax code as a way to save money and because I was too cheap to pay someone.

 

[bitterhope]

“Being frugal is being perfect in your financial decisions, everything else is just ‘being cheap’”

Thanks for the clarification. I can only hope God blesses our household with the perfection of thought that guides your financial decisions so accurately that each one is always the most money-saving and financially sound one possible at every point in time.

(But you’re wrong about canned goods, too. They destruct, and how, quite frequently.)

motte, bailey, bailey, motte.

That isn’t at all what I said. I’m sorry you feel this way.

 

[punisherthunder]

Luxury?

• We have a savings account. It’s not too much, but if a car of ours ever broke down or the washer/dryer took a dive, we could replace it.
• We do have a house in the sense of 3br, 2ba, A/C, garage, yard, jetted tub, walk in closet, decent subdivision in the country. Oh and satellite tv with gig internet.
• Food is mostly just unprocessed food which gives way to scandal that we eat only organics which is false. But you’d be surprised by people at the meat counter when you ask for steak/shrimp/salmon/crab/chicken. Instead of filling a cart with processed carbs, they do look at you different.

-Clothing is only an issue for my wife. I wear the same shirts and pants all the time just because they work. Heck, I even gave away a brand new pair of $300 Clarks shoes that my parents gave me for Christmas…to our parish shoe drive, just because they didn’t fit me and I thought they were ugly. I hope whoever got them, really likes them, and I’m happy to imagine that.

As for my wife, clothing is a luxury I suppose. Cosmetics are from Dior, Givenchy, and Versace. Handbags are Brahmin and Louis Vuitton. Jackets are to be real fur coats only and there must be separate ones to match outfits. As a result, we have about 25 fur coats at our house.

-But then again, I have only one suite, pair of dress shoes, I don’t shave to save on razors, etc.

 

[pianistclare]

Luxury?

• We have a savings account. It’s not too much, but if a car of ours ever broke down or the washer/dryer took a dive, we could replace it.
• We do have a house in the sense of 3br, 2ba, A/C, garage, yard, jetted tub, walk in closet, decent subdivision in the country. Oh and satellite tv with gig internet.
• Food is mostly just unprocessed food which gives way to scandal that we eat only organics which is false. But you’d be surprised by people at the meat counter when you ask for steak/shrimp/salmon/crab/chicken. Instead of filling a cart with processed carbs, they do look at you different.

-Clothing is only an issue for my wife. I wear the same shirts and pants all the time just because they work. Heck, I even gave away a brand new pair of $300 Clarks shoes that my parents gave me for Christmas…to our parish shoe drive, just because they didn’t fit me and I thought they were ugly. I hope whoever got them, really likes them, and I’m happy to imagine that.

As for my wife, clothing is a luxury I suppose. Cosmetics are from Dior, Givenchy, and Versace. Handbags are Brahmin and Louis Vuitton. Jackets are to be real fur coats only and there must be separate ones to match outfits. As a result, we have about 25 fur coats at our house.

-But then again, I have only one suite, pair of dress shoes, I don’t shave to save on razors, etc.

Well, Catholics don’t believe that any of those things makes one rich.
I’m happily married, no fancy stuff except for the grand piano my father bought me 40 years ago.
I feel pretty good. God is good.