Do you love the Catholic Church because you love Jesus or love Jesus because love the Catholic Church?

[jack63]

To perhaps add what others have not…I certainly do not see the teachings of Christ as rigid. In fact I very much see the opposite. No doubt it is the people who are rigid.

With that being said…you might really consider learning some canon law, understanding church documents, and better learning scripture. The canon law the church leaders have given us is far from rigid. In fact, canon law and the understanding of canon law is a very good way to push back against the rigidity that you see.

Learning some canon law might actually help your faith. You’ll begin to understand what the Catholic Church actually says and means…not some very rigid person who wants to control you.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

They driver asked them what it was and they told him it was a ham and he refused to take it/them because he was a Muslim.
Which religion is “right” in this case and at what point something becomes unreasonable?

That situation is small potatoes. If he doesn’t want a ham in his cab, call another taxi or an Uber. It’s not like cabs are rare or hard to find, and cabbies refuse transport for all sorts of relatively minor reasons.

It’s not important to fight with him over which religion is right or wrong. It’s his cab and I don’t care if he doesn’t want a ham in it because he’s Muslim or because he’s vegan or because he just doesn’t want food in his cab because it smells or makes a mess.

 

[Rozellelily]

Can a person be Catholic but not yet be Christian?
I think a lot of us call ourselves Christian because we were baptised and grew up in catholic cultural background, attend weddings + first communions in catholic church etc but maybe there are “levels” of Catholic/Christianity?

 

[Rozellelily]

We read the exceptions online, people don’t go to post about “I converted and I get along great with my family.

I think you are right. It’s more natural/human nature to post when something negative and people don’t post all the positive in their lives so maybe it can seem “bigger occurances” then it is.

or I can call an Uber.

Telling a taxi driver directly you will call an Uber in Australia could be seen as a provocation itself .

Christians we are called to respect and with charity to every other person.

It’s not important to fight with him over which religion is right or wrong

I agree this is most Christian response. I don’t know personally if the Christians themselves made a big deal over it but somehow it did end up in news stories.
I think taxi drivers should be allowed to refuse things that could damage or cause smell to the car if it is their car.
Is there a point though when it can go too far?
If the couple was trying to impose on driver to actually eat some of ham this I would understand.
Some time ago, there were complaint made because some Muslim taxi drivers here refused to accept blind peoples guide dogs as some Muslims believe dogs are unclean.
In situation like this, if charity is shown to one group (based on religion) then isn’t charity also denied to another group (disability with blindness) ?
Where is the line to balance religious “right” with “right” of other people?
Or maybe “rights” mentality is not the way anyone should look at things?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I love Jesus first and foremost. He is my Lord and Saviour. I came to Him through a powerful, immediate, unmistakable conversion experience.

However, many things follow from that. He founded a Church. He said so. That Church is the Catholic Church. It is a visible organization. It has very definite teachings, and a teaching office (magisterium) headed by the Pope, who is the successor of St Peter. I love that Church. But I only love her because I love Jesus.

If I did not believe in Jesus, the Church would be to me nothing more than a huge international organization, based on an idea I do not embrace, with vast real estate and financial holdings, charitable endeavors that do great good for people in need, and a very large educational network. In other words, it would be kind of like Freemasonry writ large, with fewer secrets and weekly meetings that everybody attends, not just men who have been initiated. Not sure how crazy I’d be about it.

 

[Rozellelily]

Another thing I have seen bickering or “abrupt words” online is some USA Catholics are talking about something called Amazon Synod.
I had to google search to understand what it is. Apparently there is some Bishop meeting (?) in the Amazon jungle and they used some statue of a pregnant woman which looked a bit “tribal like” and some Catholics are angry because they say it’s “pagan represent thing”, idol or not represent Mother Mary etc?

Are they right to be angry or is this the “rigid thinking” I am referring to?

Personally, to me the statue is “ugly” but to the people of the Amazon it may not be and maybe the Bishops feel this method is the way they can speak to the people and that the statue represent openness to life/pregnancy?

Some apparently even when so far to literally “kidnap” the statue and throw into the water apparently.
I think most Catholics would understand this as theft and disrespectful but isn’t this the sort of thing that can happen when people develop a mentality of “religious group/affiliation” vs “spiritual”?

 

[Convert3]

I’ve loved Jesus for decades. The Catholic Church taught me how to be close to him and to follow him through the narrow gate.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Are they right to be angry or is this the “rigid thinking” I am referring to?

It was an unwise decision with an ambiguous moral implication so I think it is somewhat justified.

 

[Kindnessmatters]

I don’t think your impression of American Catholics is quite accurate.

First, Catholicism is the same religion all over the world. Some people are more orthodox than others, also all over the world…

My general experience of American Catholics is that I know very, very few who are orthodox. Even nuns I know take several exceptions (and liberties) with at least some Catholic teaching. In fact, American nuns/sisters have been under pressure in recent years from the Vatican to tighten up.on orthodoxy.

I think Cafeteria Catholicism…picking and choosing from the church…is the unfortunate norm in the US. Many, for example, support gay marriage, accept premarital sex and favor birth control. Many want married priests and women priests.

As others have said, CAF tends to attract more engaged, interested Catholics who study the faith, want to understand and improve our own formation, and I sense many of us are more orthodox than average.

I am personally seeing signs (though I cannot quantify it or speak with any authority as to whether what I see is widespread) that orthodoxy is returning to some parishes, and where I live, is where the growth seems to be. For example, it seems those diocese which are more strictly adherent to church tradition and doctrine are bringing in more seminarians. I am starting to see women covering their heads for mass, the confession lines are growing, and there appears to be growing interest in Latin Mass. I had seen none of this, until the last few years, since the 70s and it is still far from the norm but may be an emerging trend.

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

I would say that I am first and foremost a follower of Jesus. I am realistic enough to recognize that the main, and perhaps only, reason why I am specifically a Catholic is because my parents are Catholics and that is how I was raised. Of course, there will be people who say, “But surely you are also a Catholic because you have come to understand that it is the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ during his earthly ministry and outside of which there is no salvation.” I would say that it’s a lot more complicated than that. The vast majority of Muslims, for example, believe that Islam is the one true religion. The vast majority of Eastern Orthodox probably believe that Eastern Orthodoxy is the one true Church. It’s probably only liberal Protestants who would allow themselves the thought that there could be several different denominations that are all equally valid choices for Christians to belong to. If I’d been born into a Greek family I’d probably be Eastern Orthodox, if I’d been born into an Armenian family I’d probably be Oriental Orthodox, if I’d been born into a Swedish family I’d probably be Lutheran, and so on.

 

[Rozellelily]

don’t think your impression of American Catholics is quite accurate.

First, Catholicism is the same religion all over the world.

This wasn’t directed to me but I just wanted to add that in Australia I think there is a general impression of USA people as being very “passionate” about religion in general.
It seems Americans talk about religion much more openly in media, workplace, politicians etc…
There are many USA religion tv shows, but in Australia there is only a couple early in the morning and also the “street preachers” we read about from USA will very likely get arrested by police as harassment if they tried this here.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

Having experienced Catholicism in both countries, and discounting CAF as the standard, because I do not believe it represents the standard person in the street Catholic

I find very little difference in catholicism in either country. In USA the Mass is a little more vibrant in its music, and I think that is due to cultural influences in different areas.

These days it is easy to tune into any religious show, with the internet.

USA is more outspoken in its person in the street commitment to issues like abortion, with more people vocal, but then that is due to different laws.

I find people both rigid and not so much, and all degrees of pre to post VII politics in both countries, and really the world over.

Australia has some fine theologians, as does the States. They mostly hang around the halls of learning.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

Thirdly, Australia has historically not been dominated by Reformed (i.e. Puritan) evangelical Christians as in the US.

I think this is the most important point for the differences in religion in the two countries.

 

[Emeraldlady]

I would say that I am first and foremost a follower of Jesus. I am realistic enough to recognize that the main, and perhaps only, reason why I am specifically a Catholic is because my parents are Catholics and that is how I was raised. Of course, there will be people who say, “But surely you are also a Catholic because you have come to understand that it is the one true Church founded by Jesus Christ during his earthly ministry and outside of which there is no salvation.” I would say that it’s a lot more complicated than that. The vast majority of Muslims, for example, believe that Islam is the one true religion. The vast majority of Eastern Orthodox probably believe that Eastern Orthodoxy is the one true Church. It’s probably only liberal Protestants who would allow themselves the thought that there could be several different denominations that are all equally valid choices for Christians to belong to. If I’d been born into a Greek family I’d probably be Eastern Orthodox, if I’d been born into an Armenian family I’d probably be Oriental Orthodox, if I’d been born into a Swedish family I’d probably be Lutheran, and so on.

I really identify with your thoughts as well. I was born into a very Catholic Catholic family and have faithfully practiced my whole life. (57 years and counting) But I’m most fascinated and drawn to Catholic converts who have come into the faith by Gods grace. (I’m not at all moved by converts who come into the Church and carry on like pork chops though like Taylor Marshall) I often wonder if I had been born into a different family, would I have had the courage and openness to grace to have ‘jumped ship’ like they did. I hope that I could be so humble as they are. My two sisters in law and my brother in law all converted when they came into our family. They are an enigma to me and proof of the Catholic Church.

 

[Bithynian]

I don’t think your impression of American Catholics is quite accurate.

Generalisations are always difficult and that’s why I qualified my post with “insofar as I’ve noticed”: it was more of a personal observation based on my individual experiences rather than something to be taken definitively true.

Also I didn’t actually comment on the relative orthodoxy of American vs Australian Catholics. I was more so highly some differences in culture and religious life.

Australia has some other idiosyncrasies: historically Catholics were associated with the Labor Party, a left (or centre-left) party which is broadly comparable to the Democrats in the US. In fact my hometown was the top electorate that voted against the national same-sex marriage vote and has been a bastion of left-wing union activism for a century.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Personally, to me the statue is “ugly” but to the people of the Amazon it may not be and maybe the Bishops feel this method is the way they can speak to the people and that the statue represent openness to life/pregnancy?

I’ve wondered that myself. My first question would be “are these statues idols, that is, are they worshiped in and of themselves, or are they merely representations of false gods?”. I’ve wondered if there could be some way to use the natives’ devotion to Pachamama, to make Marian devotion intelligible to them — “yes, we have something kind of like Pachamama, maybe a little bit, but it’s so much better, and let us share it with you” — ad Jesum per Mariam.

I had just a little bit of an issue with stealing the statues and throwing them into the Tiber. I understand the sentiment, but was this trashing the sincerely held beliefs of pagans whom we are trying to bring to knowledge of the One True God? Seen that way, it wasn’t the most “people-friendly” thing in the world to do.

 

[Rozellelily]

This is how I view it also.
If I was born to Bosnian Serb instead of Bosnian Croat I would be Orthodox instead of Catholic.
Who am I to be arrogant enough to tell another that my religion is right and yours is “wrong”?
Personally for example I believe Islam has moral value but is not Gods “ultimate” way but many of the Muslim likewise feel the same for catholic religion/Christianity

Realistically, most people will stay the same religion as their parents/culture and most people are not open to “proselytizing”.
God has this knowledge, so why He make so many religion and some baby baptized and some not etc?

It can be hard though to keep focus on spiritual “whys” when a lot of religion is about religious rule adherence.
For example I don’t like/understand rule like Catholic must get permission from Priest to marry non catholic etc…
This then can create rigid mindset in person of “I will marry you on provision of you converting to my religion”…

Is It not then almost become like club?.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

For example I don’t like/understand rule like Catholic must get permission from Priest to marry non catholic etc…
This then can create rigid mindset in person of “I will marry you on provision of you converting to my religion”…

Anything can be abused.

 

[Bithynian]

I think this is the most important point for the differences in religion in the two countries.

I do think the situation is changing (hence “historically”). The largest religious community for most of the Australia’s history was the Anglican Church, and most dioceses were of the high church variety. So there were significant parallels with Catholic theology and less ground for antagonism with the Catholic Church.

A significant exception was the Anglican Diocese of Sydney, which was very evangelical from its establishment. But they still wore vestments, they were still credal, and they still celebrated Holy Communion traditionally. That all started changing in the 1990s when American Reformed theology started gaining ground.

In 2020, for the most part, most Anglican parishes in Sydney are indistinguishable from non-denominational evangelical churches in the US: vestments have been jettisoned, nobody knows of the creeds and Holy Communion has been reduced to some grape juice in a medicine cup and a crumble of wholemeal bread bought from the supermarket. Holy Communion is just a 45 minute sermon at this stage.

Except Sydney (which has remained demographically stable), most of the other Anglican dioceses in Australia are in steep decline (as are most Anglican churches in the Western world), and so the highly puritanical sort of Reformed theology in Sydney has become the second largest religious community in Australia. They’re quite inimical to anything that has the faintest hint of Catholic theology: they wrote a very mean spirited response to the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission’s ecumenical report on Mariology.

What I find most problematic is that, in Australia, the Catholic Church and the Anglican Church historically did not proselytize across their faith communities (i.e. “sheep steal”), and it was a sign of mutual recognition and understanding. That’s all dissipated given the changes in Sydney: the Sydney Anglican Diocese even proselytized from other Australian Anglican dioceses by planting non-denominational churches within their diocesan borders. How appalling is that?

 

[Rozellelily]

So I can understand better, why is the reasoning for need to get “permission” the first place please?