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Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
I can’t figure it out. Some people do and some don’t. Some only do it at the end of the Creed. The missal has the sign of the cross at the end of both.
What do you do?
What do you do?
Do you make the sign of the cross at the end of Gloria and Credo?
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damooster
Guest
If you’re referring to the TLM, I don’t make the sign of the Cross after the Gloria or the Creed because I thought that was for the priest.
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CB_Catholic
Guest
I don’t, and I’ve never seen anyone else do so, but then again that hasn’t been something that ever crossed my mind and I’ve never looked to see if others do. We make it at the beginning of Mass, and those prayers are part of the Mass.
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MarkThompson
Guest
The 1962 Missale doesn’t have any indication of a sign of the cross for anyone. After “Et vitam venturi saeculi. Amen.”, it continues with the rubric, “Deinde osculatur altare, et, versus ad populum, dicit …” (“Then he kisses the altar, and, turned to the people, says …”).
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ProVobis
Guest
Yes, also at
In nomine Patris…
Adjutorium nostrum…
Indulgentiam…
Benedicat vos…
Reasons: Participation in the Mass.
In nomine Patris…
Adjutorium nostrum…
Indulgentiam…
Benedicat vos…
Reasons: Participation in the Mass.
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MarkThompson
Guest
Is that a joke of some kind? Or where did you get the idea that the sign of the cross is to be made after the Gloria or the Credo?
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MarkThompson
Guest
Ah – time to correct myself. The rubric does say that the priest is to cross himself at the end of the Gloria and the Credo, but (d’oh!) the rubric itself appears before, not at the end of, the Gloria and Credo. For the Gloria: “Et in fine dicens: Cum Sancto Spiritu, signat se a fronte ad pectus.” ("… he signs himself from forehead to chest.") For the Credo: “In fine ad Et vitam venturi saeculi, signat se signo crucis a fronte ad pectus.”
Still, I don’t know why anyone would think the gesture is to be taken up by the congregation. Might as well stand there with orans hands or go up and kiss the altar if you’re going to imitate.
Still, I don’t know why anyone would think the gesture is to be taken up by the congregation. Might as well stand there with orans hands or go up and kiss the altar if you’re going to imitate.
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Euthyphro
Guest
It is customary to sign at the end of both Credos (Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed) at the recitation of the “resurrectionem”
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ProVobis
Guest
That was my understanding of the OP question.
Why the sarcasm from you, Mark? Weren’t you one of those who stressed the need for more participation in the EF Mass?
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MarkThompson
Guest
That’s why I didn’t find it when I went to look for it.
The sarcasm (mild sarcasm, is at least how I meant it to come off) is because the same people (not specifically you) who see congregational cross-signing or genuflection during the Credo as the most reverent thing since sliced bread are usually the ones most in danger of having an aneurysm when it comes to congregational orans or hand-holding.Why the sarcasm from you, Mark? Weren’t you one of those who stressed the need for more participation in the EF Mass?
When somebody shows me the rubric that says the congregation can make the sign of the cross at the end of the Gloria or the Credo – someplace where the Vatican has said it’s permitted – I’ll be satisfied. Until then, I consider this a Modernist innovation and an intrusion into the Most Holy Sacrifice, a subversion of the verticality of the Mass and a violation of our sacred responsibility to be obedient to the rubrics. It’s probably the result of Protestant and Masonic influence, anyway. (Does that kind of language sound familiar?
)
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Bob_Aliano
Guest
It’s a custom I’ve never come across in any of the churches I’ve visited across the US!
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damooster
Guest
Normally I disagree with you (no offense) but I can’t argue with you here. I could mention that there’s a big difference between making the Sign of the Cross and holding hands, but I’ll leave that for someone else because this past Sunday I sat next to a guy who kept giving me the evil eye for not Signing myself after the Gloria, Credo, Confiteor, and not pounding my chest etc. I don’t do it because the rubrics don’t specify for me to do so, so I have to be fair because your sarcasm has some merit.When somebody shows me the rubric that says the congregation can make the sign of the cross at the end of the Gloria or the Credo – someplace where the Vatican has said it’s permitted – I’ll be satisfied. Until then, I consider this a Modernist innovation and an intrusion into the Most Holy Sacrifice, a subversion of the verticality of the Mass and a violation of our sacred responsibility to be obedient to the rubrics. It’s probably the result of Protestant and Masonic influence, anyway. (Does that kind of language sound familiar?
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ProVobis
Guest
You are right, of course, but this is where the criticism of the EF comes into play because all are expected to just sit, stand, or kneel throughout the Mass. To many the OF is “superior” because it “allows” vocal responses and other rubrics on the part of the faithful.
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roadsend
Guest
Immemorial custom. Actually, it is made during the last line of the prayer, not after. Folks started doing this a thousand years or so ago. It is indicated in most of the older missals. Look at some of the old missals in a rare book room some time and you will see it.
Not many modernists around then.
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rwoehmke
Guest
I have never observed this being done by any lay person
at any OF Mass and it was never the case at Mass before Vatican II at least as far back in as1942 when we Catholic school kids attended Mass every school day morning as well as Sundays and Holy Days. Perhaps it depends on ones diocese, nationality, or locality.
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MarkThompson
Guest
Sorry, what? It’s mentioned for the priest only in the editio typica. Are you talking about instructions in some random privately-published hand missal?
Well, let’s go to the rare book room, shall we? How about 1621? For the Gloria:
http://books.google.com/books?id=CP...XQkEbAV9bOH883ijYUg&ci=539,874,378,340&edge=0
For the Credo:
http://books.google.com/books?id=CP...D00wThMFaT5ssDjCwGg&ci=486,937,366,285&edge=0
Hmm, I’m not seeing any “congregational participation” suggested here.
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roadsend
Guest
And you probably wont. The instructions in the old missals are Church Liturgical Law and are directed at the priest. The actions of the laity (Signa Crucis, bows, genuflections, etc.) are customs of long standing (centuries) which MAY be followed by the laity.
I should have expressed myself more clearly. My comment about the instructions in the Missals (which you showed in your post, referred to the comment by the poster who said that he had never seen such an instruction, which is a sentiment which I believe you also shared in an earlier post.)
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MarkThompson
Guest
Can you provide any source that confirms or details this immemorial custom? The hand missals I’ve looked at don’t mention any such. This one, I suppose, says that during the et incarnatus est, “Here all kneel down,” but it says nothing about making the sign of the cross, and, for example, specifies that before proclaiming the Gospel “[t]he priest makes the sign of the Cross upon his forehead, mouth, and breast . . . .”
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roadsend
Guest
I will look at my old missals tomorrow and get back to you when I can.
As an altar server I was trained in the '40s to follow the custom of making the sign of the cross, and bowing whenever the priest did these actions.
IIRC - Sign of the cross at the beginning of Mass, Adjutorium nostrum, indulgentium, Gloria, Credo, Benedictus, and the blessing near the end.
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Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
OK, this is interesting. I thought there would be a straightforward answer to my question.
Basically, some people in my parish do imitate the priest at some points during Mass (for example cross themselves during the priest’s Confiteor and beat their breast), and others don’t. Some of these people have been brought up with the TLM before V2 reform so my guess is that they are doing what they learned back in the day. I wonder if the gesture at the end of Gloria and Credo (during the last line to be precise) is a similar thing: something that people feel they can do although it is not required?
Basically, some people in my parish do imitate the priest at some points during Mass (for example cross themselves during the priest’s Confiteor and beat their breast), and others don’t. Some of these people have been brought up with the TLM before V2 reform so my guess is that they are doing what they learned back in the day. I wonder if the gesture at the end of Gloria and Credo (during the last line to be precise) is a similar thing: something that people feel they can do although it is not required?
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