Do you own that seat?

[thequietsinger]

Makes me think of Shelden on Big Bang Theory …

          Thats my spot !

That’s exactly what I was thinking!

I always liked to rotate around the Church pews, so every time I got to go to Mass alone, I sat in a different spot to see where the best spot was. The very back, not so much. Unless you want to get smacked upside the head with someone’s purse as their deciding where to sit, and make a last minute move. But the plus side is that you aren’t being kicked underneath the pew…accidentally. So far, I’ve been lucky pew-wise, but there have been times where people flashed nasty looks at me for sitting in “their spot.” It can be pretty annoying, especially since I have seen people fight over who sits where, as if they’re 5 year olds at a picnic, fighting over who gets to sit next to Mom.

 

[Origen52]

I’m just impressed that someone at mass knew your telephone number…

 

[coopnann]

That is crazy someone called you to tell you that, and no, that is not even right, there would be a reserved sign. But as you said, no one was there anyway.

Her wanting the first pew every time makes me think of what Jesus said, “The first shall be last…” What will the look on her face be when Jesus reminds her of that in Heaven…

 

[Luz_Maria]

That is crazy someone called you to tell you that, and no, that is not even right, there would be a reserved sign. But as you said, no one was there anyway.

Her wanting the first pew every time makes me think of what Jesus said, “The first shall be last…” What will the look on her face be when Jesus reminds her of that in Heaven…

She sits at the other side of the aisle! It is not even “her spot”! freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-whacky110.gif

 

[IfYouLeadMe]

It always amazes me the somewhat Dr Jeckyl/Mr Hyde personality some church-going people have.

As others have pointed out about the nasty looks they get if they’ve “accidentally” sat in someone else’s usual spot, the fights and such, it all reminds me of something that happened a few weeks ago.

Sunday morning, we were getting out of the car and there were plenty of other empty parks, but this man decides to park right next to us, pushing his way through instead of waiting no more than 1-2 seconds while our car door was still open. We proceed to walk toward the Church and he hurries past us, giving us a long, dirty stare. About 30 mins later he would have been turning to fellow parishioners saying “peace be with you…” I thought Christianity is something you radiate through your daily life, not just inside the Church itself… I haven’t got the time or energy to think of how I can be not nice to someone

Anyway I hope that this whole seat thing gets resolved peacefully. Furthermore, smile at this lady whenever you see her, turn the other cheek, pretty much. You never did anything wrong and the best you can do is continue to be honest and polite and charitable

 

[LegoGE1947]

I remember taking a speech class, and my teacher referred to this phenomenon as “territoriality”. I don’t think it goes just for mass but even for class in school and other aspects. We stake our our claim for some reason and can want to resist moving. Might seem difficult to understand, but it does happen.

If you think about it, though we can move anywhere in the church, many of us will probably sit in more or less the same seat week after week. Admittedly, we probably wouldn’t defend it to a point of almost getting into a fight, but there’s definitely something to all this.

As long as people don’t do like some animals and urinate on the seat to mark it as their territory…

 

[LegoGE1947]

That is crazy someone called you to tell you that, and no, that is not even right, there would be a reserved sign. But as you said, no one was there anyway.

Her wanting the first pew every time makes me think of what Jesus said, “The first shall be last…” What will the look on her face be when Jesus reminds her of that in Heaven…

Assuming she MAKES it to heaven!

 

[strawman106]

A pioneer in cognitive-behavioral psychology, Dr Abraham Low, M.D., once commented, “Life old be peaceful except for the question of right or wrong.” Our predisposition to this manner of thinking permeates this thread. The woman who made the call was clearly in the wrong, and the original poster is the aggrieved party. The conflict the OP is experiencing flows from this judgement. Catholics, old and new alike, are not unique in cloaking “domination in the guise of service” I.e. using high- minded language to cloak a more base intention.

What if we assume the woman was being charitable? What if the OP shared that inspiring second paragraph with that woman? I say it would result in a much more inspirational and edifying encounter.

It’s never too late.

 

[PhiloMed]

Ignore this strange woman and sit wherever you want to sit.

I’m more surprised that someone’s “spot” is the front row. That’s usually the last to fill up. We usually get to mass just barely on time since no matter how organized I try to be, getting a 14 month old ready for church can be challenging. The ushers usually bring us to the front row since that’s all that is left.

 

[27lw]

I thought this was very interesting (from Wikipedia). I have seen something about “pew rent” in an old ledger at my former parish. Maybe this lady’s family used to pay “rent” for a particular pew, or something.

---

Pew rents

Until the early/mid twentieth century, it was common practice in Anglican, Catholic, and Presbyterian churches to rent pews in churches to families or individuals as a principal means of raising income. This was especially common in the United States where churches lacked government support through mandatory tithing. This, by nature, enforced a sort of social status in church seating within a parish. Architecturally, pew rents led to a divergence between American and European church furnishing persisting to this day. Pews became far more common in American churches because they were a source of income.

Pew rental emerged as a source of controversy in the 1840s and 1850s, especially in the Church of England. The legal status of pew rents was, in many cases, very questionable.[3] Further, it exacerbated a problem with a lack of accommodation in churches, that had been noted already in the 1810s, especially in London, and in particular by Richard Yates in his pamphlet The Church in Danger (1815) with his estimate of over 950,000 people who could not worship in a parish church. St Philip’s Clerkenwell, a Commissioners’ church, was the first London church to break with pew rents.[4]

William James Conybeare commented on the pew system in his “Church Parties” article in the Edinburgh Review of 1853, stating that it was the Anglicans who had adopted the slogan “Equality within the House of God”.[5] The early 19th century Commissioners’ churches were only required to offer 20% free seating. Attitudes changed from the 1840s, with the High Church party turning against paid pews. By the 1860s and 1870s that view had become quite orthodox, and was supported vocally by Frederic William Farrar.[6]

Many Anglo-Catholic parishes were founded at this time as “free and open churches” characterized by their lack of pew rentals.[7] In mid-century reforms, pews were on occasion removed from English churches in order to discourage rental practices. The Free and Open Church Association was founded in 1866 by Samuel Ralph Townshend Mayer.[8]

 

[Rae8]

A pioneer in cognitive-behavioral psychology, Dr Abraham Low, M.D., once commented, “Life old be peaceful except for the question of right or wrong.” Our predisposition to this manner of thinking permeates this thread. The woman who made the call was clearly in the wrong, and the original poster is the aggrieved party. The conflict the OP is experiencing flows from this judgement. Catholics, old and new alike, are not unique in cloaking “domination in the guise of service” I.e. using high- minded language to cloak a more base intention.

What if we assume the woman was being charitable? What if the OP shared that inspiring second paragraph with that woman? I say it would result in a much more inspirational and edifying encounter.

It’s never too late.

I tried at first to think she was trying to be kind or helpful but then her phone message went on to say, [paraphrasing] that many of the people there have been attending for 15 or 20 years and always sit in the same place and that I should look around and see where people sit and have respect for others. She must have said about three times in the message to show some respect for other people. This was very insulting because I have always shown respect for the other people and have done nothing to warrant her saying that. The only thing I could figure was she was afraid I might sit in her seat one day which is on first row as she is almost always late.

Today, my father’s mass this morning was very nice in spite of the dread of some sort of encounter with her. She came in after prayers had already begun. I did not look her way and put her out of my mind and concentrated on prayers. After the mass was over, she went straight into the priest’s changing room behind the altar. I have no idea if it was to discuss this same issue or not.

 

[pensmama87]

I thought this was very interesting (from Wikipedia). I have seen something about “per rent” in an old ledger at my former parish. Maybe this lady’s family used to pay “rent” for a particular pew, or something.

---

Pew rents

Until the early/mid twentieth century, it was common practice in Anglican, Catholic, and Presbyterian churches to rent pews in churches to families or individuals as a principal means of raising income. This was especially common in the United States where churches lacked government support through mandatory tithing. This, by nature, enforced a sort of social status in church seating within a parish. Architecturally, pew rents led to a divergence between American and European church furnishing persisting to this day. Pews became far more common in American churches because they were a source of income.

Pew rental emerged as a source of controversy in the 1840s and 1850s, especially in the Church of England. The legal status of pew rents was, in many cases, very questionable.[3] Further, it exacerbated a problem with a lack of accommodation in churches, that had been noted already in the 1810s, especially in London, and in particular by Richard Yates in his pamphlet The Church in Danger (1815) with his estimate of over 950,000 people who could not worship in a parish church. St Philip’s Clerkenwell, a Commissioners’ church, was the first London church to break with pew rents.[4]

William James Conybeare commented on the pew system in his “Church Parties” article in the Edinburgh Review of 1853, stating that it was the Anglicans who had adopted the slogan “Equality within the House of God”.[5] The early 19th century Commissioners’ churches were only required to offer 20% free seating. Attitudes changed from the 1840s, with the High Church party turning against paid pews. By the 1860s and 1870s that view had become quite orthodox, and was supported vocally by Frederic William Farrar.[6]

Many Anglo-Catholic parishes were founded at this time as “free and open churches” characterized by their lack of pew rentals.[7] In mid-century reforms, pews were on occasion removed from English churches in order to discourage rental practices. The Free and Open Church Association was founded in 1866 by Samuel Ralph Townshend Mayer.[8]

I’ve seen reference to this in books from the 1700s and 1800s, and have visited churches where the pews were “box style” and had labels on them designating the families who sat there, but I’ve never seen it in a Catholic church (only Presbyterian churches, actually). That’s interesting.

I remember one time we were late to Mass and we were thankful that our church reserves a row for young families in the back. We came in and slid in the pew, only to be yelled at an elderly lady because “Don’t you know that pew is reserved?”

I said, “Isn’t it for parents and kids?” (My almost-two year old was very apparently present.)

She said, “But it’s not for you! It’s for people who come later than you!”

So we wandered up a few more rows and squeezed (yes, squeezed) in with someone else. Nobody else sat in that pew for the rest of Mass.

That lady has been very nice to us on other occasions, so I just think she was having a bad day. Or she didn’t realize we were the same people.

 

[27lw]

Glad to hear that today’s Mass was without incident. I suppose if she confronted you about it, you could just smile sweetly, and say the when the others arrive, I’ll definitely make room for them in the pew.

 

[27lw]

Yes, the “pew rent” entries in the ledger (at my former parish) were actually not that old, up into the 1940s. So I suppose some people might feel that they still “own” a certain pew. But that’s probably not the case here.

 

[Ophelia23]

As long as people don’t do like some animals and urinate on the seat to mark it as their territory…

I thought everybody did that. Wait, it’s just me? Hmm.

 

[Rae8]

That is crazy someone called you to tell you that, and no, that is not even right, there would be a reserved sign. But as you said, no one was there anyway.

Her wanting the first pew every time makes me think of what Jesus said, “The first shall be last…” What will the look on her face be when Jesus reminds her of that in Heaven…

Funny you should say that as I thought exact thing some months ago. The funny thing, (well not really funny but odd, given the current situation), is that she not only ALWAYS sits in the same first pew seat, but ALWAYS makes sure to be FIRST in line for communion. I’m not sure why that is so important to her but I know it is as one day, a young man, not knowing his “mistake”, sat in her seat. She arrived right before the bell started to ring almost late, as usual, and ran up to take *her *seat. Well when she saw this young man sitting there, she stood there a moment obviously flummoxed as to what to do. He just looked up at her innocently wondering what this lady was doing. She then sat in the row behind him. But then when it was time for communion, he was about to step out into the aisle and she jumped ahead of him blocking his way to the aisle. He looked around as he almost collided with her not expecting someone would try to go ahead of him as it is ordinarily an orderly process. The expression on his face was one of surprise and confusion. Undeterred by his expression, she then proceeded to go past him to make sure she got communion FIRST. It’s like some sort of OCD thing I guess. I was in the middle still kneeling so I observed the whole thing in disbelief. I told my husband about the incident and we discussed that same passage you cited, “he who would be first shall be last”.

 

[Ophelia23]

Funny you should say that as I thought exact thing some months ago. The funny thing, (well not really funny but odd, given the current situation), is that she not only ALWAYS sits in the same first pew seat, but ALWAYS makes sure to be FIRST in line for communion. I’m not sure why that is so important to her but I know it is as one day, a young man, not knowing his “mistake”, sat in her seat. She arrived right before the bell started to ring almost late, as usual, and ran up to take *her *seat. Well when she saw this young man sitting there, she stood there a moment obviously flummoxed as to what to do. He just looked up at her innocently wondering what this lady was doing. She then sat in the row behind him. But then when it was time for communion, he was about to step out into the aisle and she jumped ahead of him blocking his way to the aisle. He looked around as he almost collided with her not expecting someone would try to go ahead of him as it is ordinarily an orderly process. The expression on his face was one of surprise and confusion. Undeterred by his expression, she then proceeded to go past him to make sure she got communion FIRST. It’s like some sort of OCD thing I guess. I was in the middle still kneeling so I observed the whole thing in disbelief. I told my husband about the incident and we discussed that same passage you cited, “he who would be first shall be last”.

This lady has issues. Best to pray for her. And if she went to speak with the Father after Mass about this, it is very likely that he politely and diplomatically told her she was wrong.

 

[Rae8]

This lady has issues. Best to pray for her. And if she went to speak with the Father after Mass about this, it is very likely that he politely and diplomatically told her she was wrong.

We have both prayed for her and I will again. I want to feel we are all at peace and feel love for each other. These issues are so so silly and such a waste of energy and time.

I am glad that I posted as now I don’t feel like I am doing something wrong by sitting in first seat. I wasted too much time on this . Thank you all for your encouragement and for listening.

 

[ccmcmg]

You know, there are also some mental conditions which don’t like change…autism spectrum…obsessive compulsive type disorders. Neither would like to change in routine.
Their reactions can even defy logic.

Others, it’s just a habit, pure and simple.

I wonder if as some people get older, their OCD/mental conditions get worse.

Assuming she MAKES it to heaven!

We have both prayed for her and I will again. I want to feel we are all at peace and feel love for each other. These issues are so so silly and such a waste of energy and time.

I am glad that I posted as now I don’t feel like I am doing something wrong by sitting in first seat. I wasted too much time on this . Thank you all for your encouragement and for listening.

I’m glad you prayed for her. When something like this has happened to me (we were harshly chastised after Mass one day at our FORMER parish because we dared to kneel when it was dictated; this group of parishioners did not kneel, even though they had kneelers. We continued to kneel.), I have to remember that it isn’t always about me, but probably something that the other person is going through in their lives. Perhaps her parents or husband or someone were disabled, and used to sit there, and people wouldn’t make room for them. Or else, she could just be a control freak, without any other issues that would cause that.

We have inadvertently sat in the ‘life teen’ section of the pews, before we knew that the front rows were where the teenagers usually sat. We do enjoy sitting towards the front because there are less distractions for my ADD/ADHD. In this case? Not so much; being surrounded by so many teens who are using Mass for a social event (not all life teens participants…just many in my parish) makes it hard to concentrate.

I pray to remember that even when it’s directed at me, it isn’t always about me. My crazy pride gets in the way; of COURSE everything is about me. Conversely, sometimes when it IS about me, I don’t realize it! LOL

Don’t turn it into a territorial thing. If you want to sit there, then sit there. If it doesn’t hurt anything, sit somewhere else. If you can’t reach out to her, continue praying for her. I’m so glad that we have this forum to vent and help right our hearts and minds and put them at some peace.

I’m sorry for the loss of your parents; God bless you for honoring them by having Masses said for them.

 

[Rae8]

Or else, she could just be a control freak, without any other issues that would cause that.

I pray to remember that even when it’s directed at me, it isn’t always about me. My crazy pride gets in the way; of COURSE everything is about me. Conversely, sometimes when it IS about me, I don’t realize it! LOL

Don’t turn it into a territorial thing. If you want to sit there, then sit there. If it doesn’t hurt anything, sit somewhere else. If you can’t reach out to her, continue praying for her. I’m so glad that we have this forum to vent and help right our hearts and minds and put them at some peace.

I’m sorry for the loss of your parents; God bless you for honoring them by having Masses said for them.

Thank you. My parents passed quite a while ago and I am so glad we had masses for them. Grandparents and an old family friend are coming up soon.

Regarding the “lady” in this case, you hit the nail on the head: she IS a control freak. We have known this for years. Someone before wondered how she knew my telephone number and that is how. We have known each other for years but don’t socialize. And only see each other at church. She always was a control freak with everything outside of church and now I see that it is *her *church and I need to get a copy of her rule book.

But I totally understand your point about pride. Sometime it sneaks its ugly head in when we aren’t aware of it. Only when we really examine ourselves sometimes are we aware that its at the root of some emotion or problem. Of course since this woman telephoned me and left that very long message on my phone, it took some effort to shake it off. I did it well initially but then it started to keep coming back to mind and then I got irritated that she was ruining a day I had looked forward to so long Until that is, I realized she *couldn’t *ruin it unless I allowed her to. Maybe Satan used her against me because my father is at the very point of entering Heaven and he wanted to interfere with my mass? Not sure if that is possible but it is strange this happened now of all times. But I was able to shake it off again and just bless her before going today.

Thanks be to God to allow these things in our lives to practice patience and charity in small matters so that we might have the spiritual tools to survive the bigger situations!