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MaryT777
Guest
Well said. I especially agree with it does not say “those who read my word” thus I bolded it.
Welcome to the forums by the way!~
Mary.
Do you place as much emphasis on His Eucharist as you do the Bible?
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Welcome to the forums by the way!~
Mary.
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Herculees
Guest
Thank you Mary for your kind words!
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Monte_RCMS
Guest
“Have mercy on me, Oh Lord, a sinner”.
biblehub.com/luke/18-13.htm
And then: John 6.
I was listening to a “dopey” radio program and a caller said … "use this prayer: ‘God, Help me.’ "
biblehub.com/luke/18-13.htm
And then: John 6.
I was listening to a “dopey” radio program and a caller said … "use this prayer: ‘God, Help me.’ "
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rcwitness
Guest
I’m not trying to place one devotion over the other. It’s actually my point. Like Rueben suggests, the Mass (where Communion takes place) contains both devotions. And I know that mainline Protestant churches have the same (though we do dispute that their Eucharist is the same).
Luke 11
But He said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”
Revelation 1:3
Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those whohear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.
Revelation 19:9
And the angel said to me, “Write this:Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are true words of God.”
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
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alwayswill
Guest
as you asked this in the non-Catholic forum.
and you already know the non-Catholic view of the Eucharist.
are you expecting non-Catholics to answer your question with a “yes”?
hear ya go…
As a sola scriptura practicing Christian; I do not place as much emphasis on the ordinance of Communion as I do the writings breathed out by God.
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rcwitness
Guest
Hey alwayswill, yes for the most part I’m curious to discuss the question with Evangelical Christians. But it’s an interesting question for all, since it can draw a funny response from Cats as well.
Thanks. Why do you prefer the term “ordinance” over command? Do you think there is a difference?
And let me share what I have trouble understanding about this mentality or POV. It seems that Scripture becomes so emphasized that what Scripture actually says is diminished. I don’t like to diminish Scripture at all. And I don’t like to criticize non-Catholic Christians from placing a high emphasis on devotion to Scripture. I rather agree with and admire those who do! But Scripture establishes Holy Communion as a devotion of the most Sacred level and importance. So to diminish what Scripture emphasizes seems very troubling to me. And I think that if Protestants and Catholic are going to understand Catholic faith, they have to see this perspective above all. The devotion to His Eucharist encapsulates all of the faith: Belief, Baptism, self examination, repentance, veneration of Scripture, building up the Church, prayer, admonishing one another, submitting to authority, coming together, etc.
Acts 2:42
And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
I believe that when we diminish the significance of His Eucharist, we splinter and fall farther away from Him. If we place emphasis on His Eucharist, we also place emphasis on Scripture, since the Liturgy of the Word is not separated from the Liturgy of His Eucharist.
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rcwitness
Guest
Btw, there is a largely varied view of His Eucharist among non-Catholics. But the most misunderstood view comes from Evangelicals, I think. For them, it is something that their tradition just can’t seem to grasp. But I have roots in the Evangelical faith, and know very good Christians with lots of Scriptural knowledge. In fact, if I did not choose to remain Catholic, I’m pretty certain I would become a member of an Evangelical church. But since I see a profound significance of His Eucharist, I am what I am.
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Reuben_J
Guest
While you are entitled to your belief, I have to correct the last sentence. The Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist is as much as breathed by God because it is in the scripture but more so, it is a gift from God, the gift of the Lord’s Body and Blood which He commanded us to eat and drink in order to have life.
If you are genuinely sola scriptura practicing Christian, well, the Eucharist is all there, pretty much scriptural.
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alwayswill
Guest
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alwayswill
Guest
no difference (to me) between the term “ordinance” over command.
It is your thread: so I’ll ask:
Defining propitiation as appeasing the wrath of God
Was the Last Supper propitiatory?
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rcwitness
Guest
My initial response is yes. I only say initial because I’ve never studied the term. But yes, Jesus’ Pascal sacrifice on Calvary is propitiatory. The Lord’s Supper is the reception and participation of that sacrifice.
Should I ask you if the Bible is Propitiatory?
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alwayswill
Guest
Well it is a very important concept:
Maybe other Catholics can provide a studied response
Romans 3: 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24** and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith**
Heb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
and my response is that if propitiation (appease the wrath of God) was made at the Last Supper: then the Cross was unnecessary.
IOW if at the Last Supper: the flesh and blood of Christ was actually broken and poured out then the Cross would not be needed to make propitiation
When was the wrath of God appeased: at the Last Supper or on the Cross?
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rcwitness
Guest
The Passion of Christ, on the cross, is when Jesus took on the ultimate penalty of sin. The reception of His Eucharist at the Last Supper was not dependent on that sacrifice happening first, since it was still the Word made flesh that they received. The Sacrament of His Eucharist is the means of remaining in Him, obeying Him, giving thanks to Him, approaching Him as individual members being joined with the One Bride.
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rcwitness
Guest
I’m not sure where this going, however? Does this somehow support placing a greater emphasis on devotion to Scripture than devotion to Breaking Bread?
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alwayswill
Guest
so when was the wrath of God appeased: at the Last Supper or on the Cross?
IOW when was propitiation actually made and the wrath of God appeased?
The answer to that question determines so much more.
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rcwitness
Guest
At the Death of Jesus, on the cross.
This is when it was accomplished.
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alwayswill
Guest
ok; great!At the Death of Jesus, on the cross.
Just to be clear : do you think the appeasing the wrath of God (propitiation) was accomplished at the Last Supper?
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LutheranScholar
Guest
I have to. Without the Word and Sacrament ( of the Lord’s Supper), my One True Faith is incomplete. I need Jesus’ Body and Blood on a weekly basis to get me through.
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rcwitness
Guest
No, not accomplished then, but rather offered then. It was not merely the act that provided grace, but the person who accomplished the act. This is also how He was able to forgive sins prior to the cross. But the resurrection was not delivered until after His resurrection.
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alwayswill
Guest
The sins of the OT saints were forgiven because of what Christ would do on the Cross:
“When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.” In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies.** In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness”** ( Hebrews 9:19-22 )
For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. (Hebrews 10)
It is the is the Reformed vies that propitiation was not accomplished at the Last supper ; because the bread and wine was symphonic, pointing to the Cross.
If it were literary the the broken body and the poured blood of the perfect sacrifice (never to be repeated see Hebrews 10) then the Cross is just a redundant repeat of the what actually happened at the Last Supper.
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