Do you see a possibility of Christianity not being the predominant global religion in the future?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bohm_Bawerk
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
razredge

maybe science will discover there isn’t a God … or that there is one

It will not discover either, as mindovermatter points out.

Neither philosophy nor science can prove that God does not exist. God created human logic so that it could not prove either proposition with science.

While science cannot prove God, like everything else in the universe, it can point to God. Those who have eyes to see will see. Those who choose not to see have their own reasons to fathom.
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
I am currently reading a part of the Catholic encyclopedia to which it said, “Formal dogmatic Atheism is self-refuting, and has never won the reasoned assent of any considerable number of men. Nor can Polytheism ever satisfy the mind of a philosopher” ( newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm ).
Click to expand...
I can’t resist correcting the catholic ‘encyclopedia’ you’re reading. Formal dogmatic atheism is not atheism, in that atheism is non-dogmatic. Atheism is simply the state of having looked at the evidence for any particular god (if it is supplied), and finding it to be unconvincing. Many theists seem to acknowledge this lack of reason to believe in God, given that they say it is ultimately supposed to be a leap of faith! I’m sure none of this is news to you, but as I said, I couldn’t resist.
 
James
**
Are there different types of logic? Did God create logic? In that case, can He make a square circle…? **

But why would He bother? :confused:

Nobody believe in the possibility of a square circle. Most everybody believes in the possibility of God … even atheists.

Wonder why?

God made us to think that way. Somethings we cannot see are not possible. Other things are.
 
Flavius_Aetius said:
Nevertheless Secularism can just as easily hit the Muslim community as badly as it has the Christian one. You have the every influence of Urban living and secularism aimed at turning its populous into indifferent agnostics.
Click to expand...
The problem with that is, that while there ARE “agnostic muslims,” there is very strong tendency in MOST Muslim families to discourage apostacy or not being a “TRUE Muslim.” In Middle Eastern countries with large Urban centers, people who do that are ostracized and/or killed.
And this is in big population centers.

That is why Sharia law is being pushed in England and even here in America in Muslim neighborhoods.

Christians, of course, do not do that.
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
To suppose so, either way, is to express a fundamental misunderstanding of how science operates on an epistemological level.
Click to expand...
Perhaps it won’t discover there is or isn’t a God (any more than it can discover other empirically undiscernable entities like Russell’s teapot or invisible unicorns)

But it might find convincing evidence suggesting there is an intelligent creator or alternatively some naturalistic explanation on how the universe got here.

Oh and Charlegmane, God does not create logic - logic is a transcendent concept independent of God, indeed, he himself is bound by it, unless you believe God can create square circles and married bachelors and the like.
 
razr

**Oh and Charlegmane, God does not create logic - logic is a transcendent concept independent of God, indeed, he himself is bound by it, unless you believe God can create square circles and married bachelors and the like. **

Everything that exists is created except God. Human logic is a tool created for us by God so that we might understand our reality and at least some of our relationship to God while we are in this world and in the next one.

God is bound by nothing but His own will.

Anyway, that’s my opinion and I’m sticking with it! 👍
 
Charlemagne_II said:
razr

Oh and Charlegmane, God does not create logic - logic is a transcendent concept independent of God, indeed, he himself is bound by it, unless you believe God can create square circles and married bachelors and the like.

Everything that exists is created except God. Human logic is a tool created for us by God so that we might understand our reality and at least some of our relationship to God while we are in this world and in the next one.

God is bound by nothing but His own will.

Anyway, that’s my opinion and I’m sticking with it! 👍
Click to expand...
I recommend checking out Pope Benedict’s great and infamous Regensburg lecture:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg_en.html
 
Charlemagne_II said:
razr

Oh and Charlegmane, God does not create logic - logic is a transcendent concept independent of God, indeed, he himself is bound by it, unless you believe God can create square circles and married bachelors and the like.

Everything that exists is created except God. Human logic is a tool created for us by God so that we might understand our reality and at least some of our relationship to God while we are in this world and in the next one.

God is bound by nothing but His own will.

Anyway, that’s my opinion and I’m sticking with it! 👍
Click to expand...
:confused:
So God can create square circles if he wishes?
And create a rock that he himself cannot lift?

I’m afraid the vast majority of theologians and theistic philosophers would disagree with you there and say God is bound by the laws of logic.
 
razr

**I’m afraid the vast majority of theologians and theistic philosophers would disagree with you there and say God is bound by the laws of logic. **

Not by the laws of human logic, or there could be no Real Presence in the Eucharist. 😉

By the way, how did this thread get so radically side-tracked?
 
Charlemagne_II said:
razr

**I’m afraid the vast majority of theologians and theistic philosophers would disagree with you there and say God is bound by the laws of logic. **

Not by the laws of human logic, or there could be no Real Presence in the Eucharist. 😉

By the way, how did this thread get so radically side-tracked?
Click to expand...
What is human logic? And why would it mean there could be no Real Presence in the Eucharist?
 
mindovermatter

**What is human logic? **

The limited human powers of reason, which are obviously less than those of God.

And why would it mean there could be no Real Presence in the Eucharist?

Because God can be everywhere and anywhere he wants at any time. This defies human logic, though not God’s logic.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
mindovermatter

The limited human powers of reason, which are obviously less than those of God.
Click to expand...
I don’t understand. Are you talking here about the human capacity to reason? What has that got to do with whether or not we can know that something is possible or impossible? Sure, we have limitations. However, that which we know to be metaphysically impossible, such as making a square triangle, is universally true of reality. In other words God cannot make a square triangle; he cannot do the logically impossible. God is an intrinsically rational being, and that is precisely why the world is rational. God cannot exist and not exist at the same time. So i fail to see what you mean by human reason.

Unless of course you are talking about possibility relative to methodological naturalism. But that is not logic. It uses applied logic, but it is limited to the scope and powers of physical things. For example, given methodological naturalism a person cannot come back from the dead, a miracle cannot happen. But this does not necessitate, on a metaphysical level, that such is objectively impossible; and this is simply because the method assumes the absence of any thing which does not fall within physical definitions. Thats how science operates in-order to achieve a specific kind of knowledge. However, that is not the kind of logic you appear to be implying.
Charlemagne_II said:
Because God can be everywhere and anywhere he wants at any time. This defies human logic, though not God’s logic.
Click to expand...
It does not defy logic as understood by human reason. Its merely defies the nature of physical reality.
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
I am currently reading a part of the Catholic encyclopedia to which it said, “Formal dogmatic Atheism is self-refuting, and has never won the reasoned assent of any considerable number of men. Nor can Polytheism ever satisfy the mind of a philosopher” ( newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm ). My question is, do you see any possibility in the future of Christianity not being the number 1 global religion?
Click to expand...
What is the breakdown now? Does anyone have any current breakdowns by religion?

According to the CIA website: Globally, in 2007, Christians represented 33% of people, but of that population 17% were Catholic, 6% were Protestant, 4% were Orthodox and 1% were Anglicans. Hindus were 13%. Muslims were 21%; Jews were only 0.23%…are there really that few Jewish? I thought it was way more…
cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html

In the US in 2007: Christians were 33%. Of those Christians, 24% were Catholic, Protestants were 6%, Orthodox were 4%, muslims were 21%, Jews were only 0.23%
cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html

This means that in the world, Catholics represent 17% of people…which is less than the muslim representation.

I think, in the future, Christianity will continue to be in the majority, but I think there will be more Protestants and less Catholics. I don’t know what it will take to avoid that. As it is, though 24% identify themselves as Catholics, the majority really aren’t following the rules. So there is no way to know how many of those 24% are actually practicing Catholicm as the Church dictates. For example 90% are using some sort of artificial birth control. And a recent poll posted to this forum last week said that only 75% are actually attending Mass regularly. So unless things change, I think the number of Catholics will go down, while the number of Protestants will go up.
 
Rence said:
I think, in the future, Christianity will continue to be in the majority, but I think there will be more Protestants and less Catholics. I don’t know what it will take to avoid that. As it is, though 24% identify themselves as Catholics, the majority really aren’t following the rules. So there is no way to know how many of those 24% are actually practicing Catholicism as the Church dictates. For example 90% are using some sort of artificial birth control. And a recent poll posted to this forum last week said that only 75% are actually attending Mass regularly. So unless things change, I think the number of Catholics will go down, while the number of Protestants will go up.
Click to expand...
The fact that Catholics don’t attend Mass regularly or follow all the rules doesn’t necessarily imply they will lose their faith or fail to bring up their children as Catholics. In many ways it is more difficult to be as devout or orthodox as before the invention of modern technology, mass communications and advertising but the truth of Christ’s teaching will always shine by its own light, inspire men and women of good will and expose the futility of Godless ideologies which stake everything on life in this world…
 
Rence

Here is a source, see the yellow chart.

religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

Christianity population-wise is clearly leading Islam, though its rate of growth is dropping while Islam is growing. That is of concern, but not necessarily a calamity. Around every corner of history there are surprises. 👍

As Islam engages more and more with the West, it is entirely possible that by a process of osmosis the two religions will have a favorable effect upon each other. If they can put their ancient differences aside, they will together pose a considerable challenge to atheistic humanism.

My not so educated guess is that the severity of Sharia law will soften, but that in many respects Islam will find itself psychologically closer to Catholicism than to Protestantism, which at present, except for the evangelicals, seems to be drifting inexorably toward secular humanism.

I’m obviously not going to insist on the charism of prophecy, so I could be 100% wrong. 😃
 
MindOverMatter

It does not defy logic as understood by human reason. Its merely defies the nature of physical reality.

Thanks for your interesting thoughts, but I think we have wandered off the topic. 😉
 
Charlemagne_II said:
razr

**I’m afraid the vast majority of theologians and theistic philosophers would disagree with you there and say God is bound by the laws of logic. **

Not by the laws of human logic, or there could be no Real Presence in the Eucharist. 😉

By the way, how did this thread get so radically side-tracked?
Click to expand...
Human logic is the same as God’s logic, there is only one kind of universal logic and part of God’s nature (like his goodness). So just as God can’t lie or do evil, similarily he can’t act illogically.

The real presence is not a problem as while it goes against common sense it doesn’t void formal logic. Transubstantion is traditionally conceived under Aristotelian philosophy as the substance (or essence) of bread changing to the body of Christ while the accidents (or appearance and physical attributes) stay the same

But yes this is off topic and MindoverMatter has already done a good job of explaining the point.

On topic - I think the rise of fundamental religion is disconcerting both in Islam and Christianity as they will conflict not only with one and another but with the secular world too.

Plus Christian fundamentalism is a hindrance to many educated non-believers converting to the faith, I can’t imagine many atheists/agnostics converting to a religion that believes the earth is 6000 years old or in Noah’s Ark etc.
 
**Plus Christian fundamentalism is a hindrance to many educated non-believers converting to the faith, I can’t imagine many atheists/agnostics converting to a religion that believes the earth is 6000 years old or in Noah’s Ark etc. **

Which is good for us because they will convert to Christianity before they will become fundamentalists. Think Jacques Maritain and G.K. Chesterton converting to Catholicism, and C.S. Lewis converting to the once traditional Anglican Church. I know several well-educated fundamentalists who have also converted to Catholicism. That’s anecdotal, but it’s still true that there is nothing in Catholicism that all people cannot be attracted to if they have the right disposition. That is another reason why we are also called the “universalist” Church…
 
As to the topic of this thread, is there any religion today that could overtake Christianity as the dominant global religion? If so, why?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top