Do you see yourself as a Catholic first, or a Christian first?

[NewsTheMan]

how can you be a Christian, united to Christ, joined with US in the Holy Spirit, receive sanctifying grace and not be a true Christian? (cf. Lumen Gentium II.15)

Lumen Gentium, as with all documents of that era, is ambiguous and not doctrinally binding. In any case, I’m not sure what you are getting at. Are you saying that if a protestant receives sanctifying grace then he is a true Christian? Bearing in mind that the only true Christians are those who are Catholic.

 

[A_Catholic]

how can you be a Christian, united to Christ, joined with US in the Holy Spirit, receive sanctifying grace and not be a true Christian? (cf. Lumen Gentium II.15)

I think that is the whole problem - are they truly united to Christ? They belong to heretical religions that have rejected the true Church of God. You either believe the Catholic Church is the one and only true Church of God, or you don’t. If you don’t believe that, then anyone goes. If you do believe that, then you must believe that the only way to be truly united to Christ is through his Church.

Again, can you be truly united to Christ without the Eucharist? Our Lord said that you can’t.

 

[christosdavid]

Lumen Gentium, as with all documents of that era, is ambiguous and not doctrinally binding. In any case, I’m not sure what you are getting at. Are you saying that if a protestant receives sanctifying grace then he is a true Christian? Bearing in mind that the only true Christians are those who are Catholic.

so, you’re a I dont like VII? coz this section is completely unambiguous. It says they are honored with the name Christian, united to Christ by baptism, joined with us (Catholics) by the Holy Spirit… whats so ambiguous about that?

how about the CCC then? 818 “…one cannot charge with the sin of the seperation those who are at present born into these communities… and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers… All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

 

[christosdavid]

I think that is the whole problem - are they truly united to Christ? They belong to heretical religions that have rejected the true Church of God. You either believe the Catholic Church is the one and only true Church of God, or you don’t. If you don’t believe that, then anyone goes. If you do believe that, then you must believe that the only way to be truly united to Christ is through his Church.

Again, can you be truly united to Christ without the Eucharist? Our Lord said that you can’t.

concerning being outside the visible boundaries of the CC:

CCC 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fulness of grace and truth that Christ entrusted to the Catholic Church.

 

[khawk2]

I think that is the whole problem - are they truly united to Christ? They belong to heretical religions that have rejected the true Church of God. You either believe the Catholic Church is the one and only true Church of God, or you don’t. If you don’t believe that, then anyone goes. If you do believe that, then you must believe that the only way to be truly united to Christ is through his Church.

Again, can you be truly united to Christ without the Eucharist? Our Lord said that you can’t.

Which is exactly why I am a Catholic first. Why take the risk and adjoin yourself with the heretic factions that call themselves Christians (Episcopalians, Presb., Lutherans, and all of the others who broke away from the Catholic Church) plus the other non-Catholic religions?

There is only one Church founded by Christ and it is the Catholic Church. Calling yourself a Christian is the PC thing to do in this liberal modernist world but frankly it is not a truly accurate description and you end up bunching yourself into the group of heretical offsprings of Catholicism.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Non practicing Roman Catholic is how you describe yourself. Well that certainly explains a lot of things…

Tell me,are all that are saved saved by Jesus through the Catholic Church in some fashion?

Mike, I am a “non-practicing Roman”, but very much an active Catholic. I use that as my religion as a joke, because I was discriminated against by Roman Catholics in the local Archdiocese for being Ukrainian Catholic. I was formerly Roman, but decided my spirituality would grow more in the Byzantine Rite. I was called non-practicing by those who discriminated against me. But I can guarantee you that I am very much practicing and active in my Ukrainian parish.

Of course all are saved through His Church. But what is His Church today? We know we are the true Church, but we also acknowledge that the other Apostolic Churches such as the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Armenian, Syriac and Assyrian Church of the East as valid and true Churches.

 

[christosdavid]

Which is exactly why I am a Catholic first. Why take the risk and adjoin yourself with the heretic factions that call themselves Christians (Episcopalians, Presb., Lutherans, and all of the others who broke away from the Catholic Church) plus the other non-Catholic religions?

There is only one Church founded by Christ and it is the Catholic Church. Calling yourself a Christian is the PC thing to do in this liberal modernist world but frankly it is not a truly accurate description and you end up bunching yourself into the group of heretical offsprings of Catholicism.

I claim to be an historic Christian, based on the faith of the Apostles, their writings and their traditions which have passed through history to us.

The early Christians called themselves Christians, they were called Christians by their pagan opponents and they lost their lives rather than deny they were Christians.

If thats PC, then Im in good company with Peter, Paul, Luke, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Ignatius, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Origen, Athanasius, the Cappadocians, Augustine et al.

The fact is, we are Christians who belong to the Catholic Church.

Let the others name their denomination if thats what describes them best… Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian etc…

 

[ConstantineTG]

Lord, have mercy.

How anyone could believe such a thing and yet profess to be Catholic I have no clue. Catholicism is not a faction. It’s not one among many. All those who are in Heaven are Catholic. To believe otherwise is heresy. For those who professed to be Orthodox while on earth, they are now Catholic and have professed the fullness Catholic faith.

So are the Orthodox saints like St. Mark of Ephesus and St. Alexis Toth now Catholics in heaven? Take a moment to read their lives first before you reply.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That’s because Constantine is becoming more and more Orthodox in belief, as he is essentially an Eastern Catholic.

However, I agree with him to a certain degree.

If you don’t believe that other Christians will never get to heaven, then of course what he is saying sounds ridiculous. I do believe that there are Christian Saints in heaven who are not Catholic in the sense that they are part of the Universal Christian Church, but were not Catholic while alive.

In the end, we are Christ followers - Christians.

See, we see eye to eye sometimes :thumbsup:

 

[christosdavid]

so, you’re a I dont like VII? coz this section is completely unambiguous. It says they are honored with the name Christian, united to Christ by baptism, joined with us (Catholics) by the Holy Spirit… whats so ambiguous about that?

how about the CCC then? 818 “…one cannot charge with the sin of the seperation those who are at present born into these communities… and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers… All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

no answer eh?

 

[christosdavid]

concerning being outside the visible boundaries of the CC:

CCC 819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fulness of grace and truth that Christ entrusted to the Catholic Church.

no answer eh?

After all, this is the magisterial teaching of the Catholic Church you are professing…

 

[TrueLight]

Yes they have. Invincible ignorance certainly cannot be applied to them. They are either willfully ignorant, willfully rejecting the Church or they have a genuine ‘excuse’. However, we’ll let God be the judge.

Invincible ignorance can most certainly be applied to them. How long did it take me to discover the true teachings of the Catholic Church through the internet? A long time, even though I spend a lot of time on the internet.

Let me explain why it is invincible ignorance:

If they were raised Protestant and actually believe their faith, they will have no incentive to research the Catholic Church or the Mormon Church etc, if they were taught those are false teachings. The incentive to investigate might come as a result of wanting to better evangelize.

Think of it this way. If you go to a Mormon site to see what they believe and your faith is strong, you will see their beliefs through the eyes of a Catholic. You will be learning what they believe so that you can better share your faith with them from a position of strength. I would not expect you to come back and say, “Hmm… they might be right. I’m going to attend the Mormon version of RCIA”!

I found CAF through the internet, but make no mistake; God had to remove the scales from my eyes first. Not only that, he shaped my life in such a way in order to make me more open to CatholicismI spent most of my life as an Evangelical and then I started attending the Reform church, which was more liberal, unfortunately, but also more liturgical. He knew I would first have to get over how I viewed liturgical services as boring.

To refer to Protestants as heretics is not keeping in mind the complexity of the matter.
I believe that one reason God is calling Protestant converts to the Catholic church is to minister to Protestants. So we mustn’t forget where we came from and we mustn’t lose our ability to empathize.

 

[markomalley]

Since Protestants do not follow the teachings of Christ handed down by the apostles and preserved through the Church he created, does that make them heretics?

They have, to one degree or another, heretical beliefs. The condition of being a “heretic” is a matter of canon law. Since they are not subject to canon law, I hesitate to use that term.

And if they are heretics, does that mean they are not Christians in the truest sense of the word? Does just recognizing Christ as your Saviour make you a Christian, or must you accept the teachings and dogma of the one and only true Church that He founded? Can you accept the teachings of a Church founded by a mere man and still be a true Christian?

I follow the teachings of the Church on that matter. (See VII, Unitatis Redintegratio 4, for details)

 

[khawk2]

I claim to be an historic Christian, based on the faith of the Apostles, their writings and their traditions which have passed through history to us.

The early Christians called themselves Christians, they were called Christians by their pagan opponents and they lost their lives rather than deny they were Christians.

If thats PC, then Im in good company with Peter, Paul, Luke, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Ignatius, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Origen, Athanasius, the Cappadocians, Augustine et al.

The fact is, we are Christians who belong to the Catholic Church.

Let the others name their denomination if thats what describes them best… Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian etc…

I am Catholic who belongs to the Church founded by Jesus Christ. Whether that makes me the same as you I am not sure.

I am sure that I was brought up as a Catholic and the Nuns made sure that we called ourselves Catholics, not Christians so as to separate ourselves from those who broke away from the Catholic Church, not to separate ourselves from the Apostles.

I was only referring to the sixties transition to try and make the Catholic Church more user friendly to the non Catholic world, going along to get along. Those Saints and Martyrs who died because they were Catholics rather than Christians must be remembered.

I guess it is probably not smart of me to get caught up in the semantics of it all.
A blanket apology is extended to all who I may have offended. It was not my intent.

Perhaps the good Nuns should NOT have referred to us very young Catholic School Students as Soldiers of Christ. I may have taken them literally.

 

[Seamus_L]

Sounds like an Evangelical Protestant question. How the H can one be a Catholic and not a Christian ?

 

[A_Catholic]

They have, to one degree or another, heretical beliefs. The condition of being a “heretic” is a matter of canon law. Since they are not subject to canon law, I hesitate to use that term. I follow the teachings of the Church on that matter. (See VII, Unitatis Redintegratio 4, for details)

I am not saying that individual Protestants are heretics. I am saying that their religious beliefs are herticial. To be a heretic, one must know the truth and then reject it. That is certainly what the founders of the Protestant religion did, and thus their beliefs are heretical. Certainly, to reject the Eucharist, the Pope, etc. is heretical.

We certainly need to be in prayer for them. But I think it is wrong to say that just because they believe in Jesus Christ, we are in spiritual union with them. We are not.

 

[NewsTheMan]

so, you’re a I dont like VII? coz this section is completely unambiguous. It says they are honored with the name Christian, united to Christ by baptism, joined with us (Catholics) by the Holy Spirit… whats so ambiguous about that?

What’s a “I don’t like VII”? What does that mean?

In any case, yes, the passage is ambiguous in as much as it can be interpreted to mean a few things to a few people who don’t read it in light of Tradition. Furthermore, it’s ambiguous in the more general sense in that it may even be false yet it gives the impression that it is the teaching of the Church. Vatican II was a pastoral council - Lumen Gentium introduces no new doctrines or dogmas, and in cases where any of those documents contradict infallible Church teaching they are to be discarded. I don’t want to get into all that though.

818 “…one cannot charge with the sin of the seperation those who are at present born into these communities… and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers… All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

Again, quite ambiguous. I take it to mean that Protestants are Christians, incur no penalty for the heretical beliefs they profess, and by virtue of their baptism they are considered Christians. That is as simple as it gets and there is nothing false there. It says nothing about them being “true Christians”. They aren’t true Christians. They are seperated from the true Church, and thus from Christ.

So are the Orthodox saints like St. Mark of Ephesus and St. Alexis Toth now Catholics in heaven? Take a moment to read their lives first before you reply.

I don’t know what the Catholic Church says about Orthodox canonizations. However, if they are in Heaven, they are in Heaven and they are Catholics. Any errors they held as Orthodox they would have repented of at their judgement. Same story for those who are in Heaven and on earth were Protestant, same story for those who are in Heaven and on earth were Hindu. There are no Protestants, Orthodox, Hindu, Atheists etc in Heaven. Only Catholics.

TrueLight:

Invincible ignorance can most certainly be applied to them.

|t cannot, since their ignorance is not invincible. Invincible means “never to be overcome in any possible way”. Clearly, this is not true for them. They are ignorant, which lessens culpability somewhat, but not invincibly so. That applies to people who’ve never had any contact at all with Christianity and never will. Not to a protestant who may or may not bother to do the required research into Catholicism. I’m not saying it is easy, but what you described is not invincible. If it were invincible, you wouldn’t have a story to tell, since there could be no discovery, no research, none of that. That’s what invincible means.

To refer to Protestants as heretics is not keeping in mind the complexity of the matter.

I refer only to formal heretics as heretics since this is what they are. I refer to a protestant as a protestant - i.e. perhaps not heretics themselves but in a system which is heretical in nature (i.e. rejects Catholic doctrine).

I believe that one reason God is calling Protestant converts to the Catholic church is to minister to Protestants.

God is calling them into the Church because that’s where all human beings alive belong. I’m not saying anything negative or telling anybody to just ignore them or brush them off. In fact, rather the opposite. Show them the error of their ways because it is their soul at risk.

 

[christosdavid]

I am not saying that individual Protestants are heretics. I am saying that their religious beliefs are herticial. To be a heretic, one must know the truth and then reject it. That is certainly what the founders of the Protestant religion did, and thus their beliefs are heretical. Certainly, to reject the Eucharist, the Pope, etc. is heretical.

We certainly need to be in prayer for them. But I think it is wrong to say that just because they believe in Jesus Christ, we are in spiritual union with them. We are not.

how can we not be in spiritual union with them? Didnt you read the quotes from the CCC? They are in union with Christ (as we are) and united in the Holy Spirit (as we are). Union with Christ and the Holy Spirit is spiritual union dont you think?

 

[christosdavid]

What’s a “I don’t like VII”? What does that mean?

In any case, yes, the passage is ambiguous in as much as it can be interpreted to mean a few things to a few people who don’t read it in light of Tradition. Furthermore, it’s ambiguous in the more general sense in that it may even be false yet it gives the impression that it is the teaching of the Church. Vatican II was a pastoral council - Lumen Gentium introduces no new doctrines or dogmas, and in cases where any of those documents contradict infallible Church teaching they are to be discarded. I don’t want to get into all that though.

Again, quite ambiguous. I take it to mean that Protestants are Christians, incur no penalty for the heretical beliefs they profess, and by virtue of their baptism they are considered Christians. That is as simple as it gets and there is nothing false there. It says nothing about them being “true Christians”. They aren’t true Christians. They are seperated from the true Church, and thus from Christ.

I don’t know what the Catholic Church says about Orthodox canonizations. However, if they are in Heaven, they are in Heaven and they are Catholics. Any errors they held as Orthodox they would have repented of at their judgement. Same story for those who are in Heaven and on earth were Protestant, same story for those who are in Heaven and on earth were Hindu. There are no Protestants, Orthodox, Hindu, Atheists etc in Heaven. Only Catholics.

|t cannot, since their ignorance is not invincible. Invincible means “never to be overcome in any possible way”. Clearly, this is not true for them. They are ignorant, which lessens culpability somewhat, but not invincibly so. That applies to people who’ve never had any contact at all with Christianity and never will. Not to a protestant who may or may not bother to do the required research into Catholicism. I’m not saying it is easy, but what you described is not invincible. If it were invincible, you wouldn’t have a story to tell, since there could be no discovery, no research, none of that. That’s what invincible means.

I refer only to formal heretics as heretics since this is what they are. I refer to a protestant as a protestant - i.e. perhaps not heretics themselves but in a system which is heretical in nature (i.e. rejects Catholic doctrine).

God is calling them into the Church because that’s where all human beings alive belong. I’m not saying anything negative or telling anybody to just ignore them or brush them off. In fact, rather the opposite. Show them the error of their ways because it is their soul at risk.

Again, I’d really prefer to support my own statements and not all thrown together. the statement about VII is clear, a pastoral council can make dogmatic statements, after all, Lumen Gentium is called a Dogmatic Constitution, as is Verbum Dei.

Irrespective, the statements made by the CCC are unambiguous, that we should receive seperated brethren with respect and affection as brothers in the Lord.

 

[christosdavid]

I am Catholic who belongs to the Church founded by Jesus Christ. Whether that makes me the same as you I am not sure.

I am sure that I was brought up as a Catholic and the Nuns made sure that we called ourselves Catholics, not Christians so as to separate ourselves from those who broke away from the Catholic Church, not to separate ourselves from the Apostles.

I was only referring to the sixties transition to try and make the Catholic Church more user friendly to the non Catholic world, going along to get along. Those Saints and Martyrs who died because they were Catholics rather than Christians must be remembered.

I guess it is probably not smart of me to get caught up in the semantics of it all.
A blanket apology is extended to all who I may have offended. It was not my intent.

Perhaps the good Nuns should NOT have referred to us very young Catholic School Students as Soldiers of Christ. I may have taken them literally.

I’m sure its the same church, there is only one, holy, catholic and apostolic church that was passed through history to the present.