Do you see yourself as a Catholic first, or a Christian first?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dragonslayer
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Yes, a good article but I think he’s slightly wrong on a few things. From the start I’ll reiterate: only God can judge, only God knows the state of a soul, their intentions, etc. All that we know is what we are supposed to do, and what we are supposed to tell other people to do.

A few points - this is as I understand it in light of what the Church teaches:
  1. Someone cannot claim invincible ignorance
  2. Someone who knows what invincible ignorance means, cannot be invincibly ignorant.
  3. Those who are truly invincibly ignorant are not non-Catholics. They are Catholics, joined invisibly to the Church.
  4. Those who are invincibly ignorant are not guaranteed salvation, they just have a chance.
From the Catholic Encyclopaedia
So far as fixing human responsibility, the most important division of ignorance is that designated by the terms invincible and vincible. Ignorance is said to be invincible when a person is unable to rid himself of it notwithstanding the employment of moral diligence, that is, such as under the circumstances is, morally speaking, possible and obligatory. This manifestly includes the states of inadvertence, forgetfulness, etc. Such ignorance is obviously involuntary and therefore not imputable. On the other hand, ignorance is termed vincible if it can be dispelled by the use of “moral diligence”. This certainly does not mean all possible effort; otherwise, as Ballerini naively says, we should have to have recourse to the pope in every instance. We may say, however, that the diligence requisite must be commensurate with the importance of the affair in hand, and with the capacity of the agent, in a word such as a really sensible and prudent person would use under the circumstances. Furthermore, it must be remembered that the obligation mentioned above is to be interpreted strictly and exclusively as the duty incumbent on a man to do something, the precise object of which is the acquisition of the needed knowledge. In other words the mere fact that one is bound by some extrinsic title to do something the performance of which would have actually, though not necessarily, given the required information, is negligible. When ignorance is deliberately aimed at and fostered, it is said to be affected, not because it is pretended, but rather because it is sought for by the agent so that he may not have to relinquish his purpose. Ignorance which practically no effort is made to dispel is termed crass or supine.
Click to expand...
Here is an interesting blogpost on the topic.

And that’s the last post I’ll make on the topic - there are of course many more resources. I think overall, though, leave it up to God as has been said, and pray for the conversion of souls.
 
Catholic! First last and always and when asked I say NO I’m not christian I’m a Catholic.

If you belong to a cable network that groups religious programing go there and observe all the disgraceful manna worshipers, Chrislamists and other heretics to Catholic dogma there that can lay a legitimate claim to being …‘Christian’.

I’m proud to be a Catholic and will double down on that fact in these crazy times we live in.
 
khawk2 said:
Then that would make all of us Catholics.
Click to expand...
well, at least those who are part of the historic faith of Christianity… but it might be easier to say both of us Catholics than all of us 😉

I think the thread is closing so, sayonara, its been fascinating 😉
 
NewsTheMan said:
Here is what (then) Cardinal Ratzinger said on the CCC
This brings us to the question already mentioned before, regarding the authority of the Catechism. In order to find the answer, let us first consider a bit more closely its juridical character. We could express it in this way: analogously to the new Code of Canon Law, the Catechism is de facto a collegial work; canonically, it falls under the special jurisdiction of the Pope, inasmuch as it was authorized for the whole Christian world by the Holy Father in virtue of the supreme teaching authority invested in him. . . .
Click to expand...
This was a very interesting quote.
Source, please?

I would like to read it in it’s full context.
Click to expand...
 
Mike30 said:
His one true Church today is the is the Catholic Church, which includes all those Churches in communion with Rome, as it always has been. The Orthodox have apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist yet are separate from the Catholic Church and are not complete in matters of faith.
Click to expand...
I forgot who said it, but there’s this quote, “we know where the Catholic Church is, we do not know where it is not.”
Mike30 said:
As to the non practicing Roman Catholic line I had no idea it was a joke on your part. I don’t joke about my faith but to each his own:shrug:. I am sorry that you were “discriminated against” :hmmm:by members of the Latin Rite, however,maybe that does explain some of your statements.
Click to expand...
Its fine. I did get a lot of PMs from concerned friends here and I really appreciate it. I added the quotes to make it more clear that its only the Western praxis that I have ceased to practice 😉

I was quite offended by the comment but decided that I will make light of it since I have mostly gotten over it.
 
ConstantineTG said:
I forgot who said it, but there’s this quote, “we know where the Catholic Church is, we do not know where it is not.”

Its fine. I did get a lot of PMs from concerned friends here and I really appreciate it. I added the quotes to make it more clear that its only the Western praxis that I have ceased to practice 😉

I was quite offended by the comment but decided that I will make light of it since I have mostly gotten over it.
Click to expand...
Actually, I am highly offended a lot of the times when I see people denigrate the Latin Rite and elevate others, but I normally keep my mouth shut too.

I see that you are Filipino. Great. Me too.
 
Carolus_Martell said:
Catholic! First last and always and when asked I say NO I’m not christian I’m a Catholic.

If you belong to a cable network that groups religious programing go there and observe all the disgraceful manna worshipers, Chrislamists and other heretics to Catholic dogma there that can lay a legitimate claim to being …‘Christian’.

I’m proud to be a Catholic and will double down on that fact in these crazy times we live in.
Click to expand...
Good onya, and I admit, I’m really starting to think the same way. We all know to be Catholic is to be Christian, but the modern definition, or perception of being a “Christian” is often a long way from Catholicism. I think to profess oneself as being Catholic instead of Christian just means so much more nowadays.
 
Though to be Catholic and Christian is the same thing, it really seems to me that in this modern society the heretics are taking over the word Christian and many of them believe we are not even Christian and that we and the holy father are evil bent on world domination or that we are idolaters. It’s really upsetting. We truly are living in a dark age. I’m a cradle catholic but I was a heretic and a pagan as a teenager. As a child I simply referred to myself as Christian but after growing up and returning to the faith after much exploration The Lord revealed to me that the Catholic faith is the true religion. I did much study and continue to this day. Nowadays I refer to myself as Catholic to avoid being associated with heresy. Sometimes this is the more difficult route because it seems like a lot of the world is misinformed and views Catholic church as just another denomination when in reality it is the only church established by Christ. I get slandered and ridiculed a lot by many Protestants who call themselves Christian but I just remember Our Lord said we would be persecuted because we belong to him. I have yet to meet a practicing Protestant that doesn’t imply that we are evil or try to force sola scriptura and other false doctrines down my throat. I knew this one guy who was on his way to becoming a pastor and he tried to convince me that Michael the archangel and Jesus were the same person and that Mary couldn’t pray for us because she was never assumed into heaven and that she and the rest of our ancestors were dead in the ground awaiting ressurection in spirit sleep. Though the magesterium is lenient on them because it seems they are eager for the Holy Spirit to guide them to the truth, many of them support dangerous and heretical theology. As we know the Devil is the father of all lies. I’m not saying the aren’t Christian because many of them are very devout followers of Christ. I am saying however if they want the fullness of truth and salvation they better study their theology better and realize why they believe what they do until they realize that Christ’s Church and her sacraments are the only place to go. I used to hate the church for a long time then later I questioned why I was drawn back to the Catholic Church until I was pretty sure the Holy Spirit spoke in my heart and I realized there was nowhere else to go. The church is the universal sacrament of salvation
 
PaladinSword said:
Though to be Catholic and Christian is the same thing, it really seems to me that in this modern society the heretics are taking over the word Christian and many of them believe we are not even Christian and that we and the holy father are evil bent on world domination or that we are idolaters. It’s really upsetting. We truly are living in a dark age. I’m a cradle catholic but I was a heretic and a pagan as a teenager. As a child I simply referred to myself as Christian but after growing up and returning to the faith after much exploration The Lord revealed to me that the Catholic faith is the true religion. I did much study and continue to this day. Nowadays I refer to myself as Catholic to avoid being associated with heresy. Sometimes this is the more difficult route because it seems like a lot of the world is misinformed and views Catholic church as just another denomination when in reality it is the only church established by Christ. I get slandered and ridiculed a lot by many Protestants who call themselves Christian but I just remember Our Lord said we would be persecuted because we belong to him. I have yet to meet a practicing Protestant that doesn’t imply that we are evil or try to force sola scriptura and other false doctrines down my throat. I knew this one guy who was on his way to becoming a pastor and he tried to convince me that Michael the archangel and Jesus were the same person and that Mary couldn’t pray for us because she was never assumed into heaven and that she and the rest of our ancestors were dead in the ground awaiting ressurection in spirit sleep. Though the magesterium is lenient on them because it seems they are eager for the Holy Spirit to guide them to the truth, many of them support dangerous and heretical theology. As we know the Devil is the father of all lies. I’m not saying the aren’t Christian because many of them are very devout followers of Christ. I am saying however if they want the fullness of truth and salvation they better study their theology better and realize why they believe what they do until they realize that Christ’s Church and her sacraments are the only place to go. I used to hate the church for a long time then later I questioned why I was drawn back to the Catholic Church until I was pretty sure the Holy Spirit spoke in my heart and I realized there was nowhere else to go. The church is the universal sacrament of salvation
Click to expand...
Thank you for a very thoughtful post and for sharing your experience. Your post helps me understand why it is important to identify ourselves specificially as “Catholic” and not “Christian”, even though they are one and the same. If we say Christian, people will automatically assume we are Protestant. I know someone who recently had surgery, and he was asked his religion, and was specifically asked “Christian or Catholic?”

Yes, we do look at the mainline Protestant religiions as Christian, and the mainline Protestants now generally view as in the same way, although with great suspicision. But let’s face it. The fundamentalist and evangelical Christians think Catholics are heretics. Here is an interesting excerpt from an article in catholicculture.org entitled "A Look at Dave Hunt, Leading Anti-Catholic Fundamentalist "

Because of secular humanist and feminist challenges to our faith, many of us have not taken seriously enough the persistence and vehemence of the* fundamentalist belief that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon — i.e., not simply a competing denomination, not indeed a Christian church at all, but an apostate institution, a counterfeit, a positive evil. **Catholics who experience an evangelical conversion typically view their experience through the lens of Hunt’s type of fundamentalism — and are therefore lost to the Church precisely when they are most inclined to take religious commitment seriously. If we are to be effective in bringing them back to the Catholic fold, we have to distinguish the authentic Christian content of their Christ-centered conversion from its anti-Catholic accretions and misinterpretations. *

The article goes on to contrast the diffierence Blessed John Henry Newman, a great Anglican convert in the 1800’s in England, and John Nelson Darby, an Anglican clergyman in Ireland of the same period.

*For Newman, Rome became the solution to the Anglican puzzle. For Darby, Rome was the cause of it: The Church of England shared in Rome’s apostasy by retaining too much from the Catholic past — particularly its privileged status in affairs of state. True Christianity, as envisaged by Darby, would be practiced by small fellowships, who worshiped in simplicity, with no ordained clergy and no fine church buildings. Since the Devil is the prince and god of this world, said Darby, the large and powerful churches were not only apostate but were positively in the service of the Antichrist who was to come. *

Now, of course, there are mega, mainly non-denominational evangelical churches, that seem to me to be basically large entertainment centers posing as worship centers. They definitely do good things for people, but they most definitely not leading people to the fullness of the truth.
 
A_Catholic said:
Thank you for a very thoughtful post and for sharing your experience. Your post helps me understand why it is important to identify ourselves specificially as “Catholic” and not “Christian”, even though they are one and the same. If we say Christian, people will automatically assume we are Protestant. I know someone who recently had surgery, and he was asked his religion, and was specifically asked “Christian or Catholic?”

Yes, we do look at the mainline Protestant religiions as Christian, and the mainline Protestants now generally view as in the same way, although with great suspicision. But let’s face it. The fundamentalist and evangelical Christians think Catholics are heretics. Here is an interesting excerpt from an article in catholicculture.org entitled "A Look at Dave Hunt, Leading Anti-Catholic Fundamentalist "

Because of secular humanist and feminist challenges to our faith, many of us have not taken seriously enough the persistence and vehemence of the* fundamentalist belief that
the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon — i.e., not simply a competing denomination, not indeed a Christian church at all, but an apostate institution, a counterfeit, a positive
evil. ***Catholics who experience an evangelical conversion typically view their experience
through the lens of Hunt’s type of fundamentalism — and are therefore lost to the Church
precisely when they are most inclined to take religious commitment seriously. If we are to
be effective in bringing them back to the Catholic fold, we have to distinguish the authentic
Christian content of their Christ-centered conversion from its anti-Catholic accretions and
misinterpretations.

Thank you for the kind words and insightful post. I’ve heard some of this before as well. We need apostolic authority I don’t get where they get the gall to slander us so. It’s really tragic how many people get led away from the sacraments. If it wasn’t for the rosary and our lady I probably wouldn’t have made it back either. The state of things with our seperated brethren is rather tragic to me.

The article goes on to contrast the diffierence Blessed John Henry Newman, a great Anglican convert in the 1800’s in England, and John Nelson Darby, an Anglican clergyman in Ireland of the same period.

*For Newman, Rome became the solution to the Anglican puzzle. For Darby, Rome was the cause of it: The Church of England shared in Rome’s apostasy by retaining too much from the Catholic past — particularly its privileged status in affairs of state. True Christianity, as envisaged by Darby, would be practiced by small fellowships, who worshiped in simplicity, with no ordained clergy and no fine church buildings. Since the Devil is the prince and god of this world, said Darby, the large and powerful churches were not only apostate but were positively in the service of the Antichrist who was to come. *

Now, of course, there are mega, mainly non-denominational evangelical churches, that seem to me to be basically large entertainment centers posing as worship centers. They definitely do good things for people, but they most definitely not leading people to the fullness of the truth.
Click to expand...
 
PaladinSword said:
Thank you for the kind words and insightful post. I’ve heard some of this before as well. We need apostolic authority I don’t get where they get the gall to slander us so. It’s really tragic how many people get led away from the sacraments. If it wasn’t for the rosary and our lady I probably wouldn’t have made it back either. The state of things with our seperated brethren is rather tragic to me.
Click to expand...
I think the rosary is the most important spiritual weapon that we have been given. I can’t imagine trying to navigate in this life without it.
 
Thank you for the kind words and insightful post. I’ve heard some of this before as well. We need apostolic authority I don’t get where they get the gall to slander us so. It’s really tragic how many people get led away from the sacraments. If it wasn’t for the rosary and our lady I probably wouldn’t have made it back either. The state of things with our seperated brethren is rather tragic to me.
 
I see myself as a follower of Jesus the Christ and he was Jewish. What name you call it is unimportant. It is how we live our lives as followers of Jesus that matters. Jesus did not come to begin a religion, but to teach us how to have a relationship with the divine, God, presence within our hearts and souls. A call to serve and love one an other.
 
francessmith said:
Jesus did not come to begin a religion, but to teach us how to have a relationship with the divine, God, presence within our hearts and souls. A call to serve and love one an other.
Click to expand...
Eek! In bold - :eek:

Are you sure about that? Jesus came not to abolish but fulfil. Did ya read the part about Peter, the Church, the keys? Did ya read about Pentecost? St.Pauls letters?

Jesus came to set up the Church my friend 🙂 Be proud of it!
 
Dragonslayer said:
Recently I was talking to someone who I thought was a pretty staunch Catholic and he made the comment that he saw himself as a Christian first, moreso than a Catholic.

More recently when I have done or said something stupid a work colleague has lightheartedly said something like " I thought you were a Christian, you shouldn’t be saying things like that". On other occasions some others have commented about “the Christian thing to do…” etc

Now, that has got me thinking. How do we see ourselves foremost, a Catholic, or a Christian? Does it matter?
Click to expand...
Christian. Catholic is simply a term meaning universal or for everyone.
 
Catholic first. Without that anchor, I would be a ship in the wind - not knowing which pastor or which philosophy of Christ was correct.

Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the teaching of the Magisterium. 2,000 years of faith in Christ.
 
Mike30 said:
Actually, I am highly offended a lot of the times when I see people denigrate the Latin Rite and elevate others, but I normally keep my mouth shut too.

I see that you are Filipino. Great. Me too.
Click to expand...
Awesome!

Yes, its sad when people see some form of Catholicism as above others. There are of us who are rightfully of the same kind, and the less we see of divisions between us, the faster we can achieve true, visible unity.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top